The Minimal Facts for the Resurrection of Christ.

It absolutely is NOT the consensus view.

It absolutely is...

IDK where you are getting your info from, but Dr. Habermas has been doing surveys of what LIBERAL UNBELIEVING SCHOLARS believe for longer than I have been alive (and I am almost 40), so you are going to have to provide some strong evidence of your claim atp.
 
"Another consideration that also possesses tremendous evidential value concerns the number of the appearances between Jesus and his disciples that took place in groups. In total, counting duplicates in the separate texts, up to thirteen group appearances are mentioned in the literature, three of these from the creedal tradition in 1 Cor 15:3–7 (which likely preceded Paul’s conversion). The group sightings together indicate that in a variety of events and circumstances, many people reported seeing Jesus at different times and locations. As cited above, even the Jesus Seminar and John Dominic Crossan cite from four to up to seven texts that report independently attested group appearances to Jesus’s disciples, plus a couple of sources for the two followers on the way to Emmaus, meaning that these group appearances are multiply attested, as is also the case for Jesus’s appearances to individuals."

What is Dr. Habermas's criteria?

"Of course, historical data must exist and be obtainable if the historian is to scrutinize the past. This information is often divided into two varieties: primary and secondary sources. Primary materials “are underived, firsthand, or contemporary with the event” and are therefore much more crucial. These may consist of various types of early or eyewitness testimony. Secondary materials are still helpful as they may provide different angles on the primary sources regarding past persons and events. These may include items such as textbooks, monographs, edited volumes, and syllabi. These may help elucidate and expand upon the primary materials. However, there could be some conflicts as well. Primary sources may comprise both literary and nonliterary remains. The literary remains include written documents of either an official or unofficial nature. Pliny the Younger’s famous correspondence, penned while he was a Roman governor in Asia Minor during the early second century AD, is an example of literature composed by a state official or representative. An unofficial primary document would include informal works of a firsthand nature, such as books, newspapers, journals, or periodicals. One example is Julius Caesar’s accounts of his battles in Gaul, written before his rule in first century BC Rome. Another is George Armstrong Custer’s series of articles that he wrote for Galaxy magazine from 1872 to 1874 that were later issued as a book. Documents written or coauthored by the eyewitnesses, interviews with them, or texts that otherwise still involve or reflect their influences are, of course, extremely important in historical study whenever they are available. Generally, the further we go back into the past, the rarer these sources become. An example of such eyewitness sources is published interviews from the 1940s and 1950s with still-living American Civil War veterans. Literary remains are also found in sources other than papyrus or paper, such as inscriptions found on stone, metal, or other materials (termed epigraphy)."
 
Are you not aware that there were quite a few scrolls that are not in your Bible? Scrolls outlining the purity rituals of the Essenes and their beliefs. Books like Enoch and Tobit. Even alternative renditions of stories from the Torah. I think it goess without saying that a scroll is not the Word of God or about Jesus just because it was found at Qumran.

Isaiah 53 is about the Children of Israel. The servant motif is carried all through the book of Isaiah, and there is more than one place that Isaiah identifies the servant as Israel, including this one:
Isaiah 41:8
But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend,

Since Isaiah literally tells us explicitly that the servant is Israel, that pretty much settles the argument. It really doesn't matter if you think, "But that doesn't fit with this verse here or that statement there." Isaiah is the author. If he tells me this is what he meant, I accept it.
52:
13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

53: 1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


In Isaiah 52, it clearly does not call Israel as a he. Third person plural.

5 Now therefore, what have I here, saith the Lord, that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl, saith the Lord; and my name continually every day is blasphemed.

6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

The verses in 52: 13-15 clearly start talking about one man. These verses clearly speak about the Messiah: Jesus. We can go over each verse

with a Concordance and find verses throughout the Bible that verify this, if you like. First person singular.
 
It absolutely is...

IDK where you are getting your info from, but Dr. Habermas has been doing surveys of what LIBERAL UNBELIEVING SCHOLARS believe for longer than I have been alive (and I am almost 40), so you are going to have to provide some strong evidence of your claim atp.
Liberal unbelieving scholars do NOT believe that entire crowds of people saw Jesus after a resurrection. Please, don't treat me like I'm stupid. I have done nothing to deserve that.
 
Good thing He wasn’t just a person.
Misty, if it helps you draw closer to God to think of Jesus as God, more power to you.

My God is not that rock or this tree or that Jewish preacher over there. Those things are his creation, and they bear his fingerprint--we see God reflected in his creation. But I don't confuse creation with God.
 
But I don't confuse creation with God.
Excellent, neither do I.

John 1:14

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Isaiah 9:6

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

John 8:58

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1 Corinthians 8:6

Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

John 20:28

Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

John 1:3

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

John 10:30-33

I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
 
True enough, but how many orders of magnitude more of a stretch is the original premise?

I mean, if you call out one, all must be. Reason, or faith. One cannot serve two masters.

Just Sayin’
Ian
True if both were an actual stretch. But the bible repeatedly references Jesus as the messiah himself, sent down to earth to dwell amongst man… God in the flesh, then details his death and resurrection on the cross.. it certainly thrusts it out of the category of unbelievable stretches.

Stretches like believing the entire bible is wrong and Jesus was a mass hallucination.

In this case we have evidence in the bible - reason. And faith that what is foretold therein is true - faith. Both can and do simultaneously exist.

Proverbs chapter 3 verses 5-7

5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.
7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord and shun evil.
 
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If you are a Christian, yes, I agree that this is unquestionable dogma. You are absolutely correct. But I'm not a Christian. I'm a Jew.

As I said, I normally don't bring it up. But Quick was being very persistent in trying to convert me by appealing to the resurrection. He needed to know why it wasn't going to work.
I would like to start by bringing forward some irrefutable historiographical evidence. These are not "theological opinions," but historical data coming directly from the Roman Empire—an authority that, at the time, was actively trying to suppress and erase Christianity.

1. Publius Cornelius Tacitus – Annales (XV, 44), 116 A.D.

"Auctor nominis eius Christus Tiberio imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat..."

"The author of this name, Christ, had been executed by the procurator Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius; but that pernicious superstition, repressed for the moment, broke out again..."

Tacitus has no interest in lying; he actually loathes the movement, calling it a "pernicious superstition" (exitiabilis superstitio). However, by stating that the movement was momentarily suppressed by Christ's death but then "broke out again" (rursum erumpebat), Tacitus is historically documenting the birth of a movement founded on the Resurrection. It is proof that the faith in that event was powerful enough to shake the Empire only a few years after the facts.

2. Pliny the Younger – (Epistulae X, 96), 112 A.D.

"...quod essent soliti stato die ante lucem convenire, carmenque Christo quasi deo dicere secum invicem seque sacramento non in scelus aliquod obstringere, sed ne furta ne latrocinia ne adulteria committerent..."

This demonstrates that the cult of Christ's divinity is not a medieval invention but was standard practice under Emperor Trajan (112 A.D.). A Roman magistrate certifies that these men did not worship a "dead teacher," but a living God (quasi deo).

Sacramento: Note the use of this term. The Christians bound themselves with an oath (sacramentum) to never commit crimes. A "mass psychosis" does not produce such a rigorous and stable ethical system.

3. Flavius Josephus – Testimonium Flavianum (Antiquities of the Jews, XVIII, 63-64)

"At this time there was a wise man named Jesus... He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles... And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him... and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."

Josephus was a Jew who went over to the Romans—a man who understood both worlds perfectly.

"Condemned to the cross" (Cruci damnatum): This is legal certification. The cross was the penalty for rebels against the State. It confirms Jesus was a real man who challenged the most powerful power structure in the world.

"Did not forsake him" (Non desierunt): This is the core of the Resurrection. In the original context, it indicates a continuous action—an obsession that death did not interrupt. Why didn't they stop? Because, as documented, they had seen Him alive.

"Tribe of Christians" (Genos Christianon): Josephus uses a term that indicates a "lineage" or a "new race." Not an opinion, but a people born from an event.

4. Mara Bar Serapion (Letter to his son, circa 73 A.D.)

"What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that their kingdom was abolished... But the wise King did not die; he lived on in the laws he had given."

This letter directly links the death of Christ to the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. It confirms that the "King" continues to live through his influence. It proves that as early as 73 A.D., the link between Christ and the geopolitical disaster of Jerusalem was clear to all lucid observers.

"Wise King": He recognizes Christ's legal and moral authority. In a Roman context, "King" was a title that stood in direct defiance of Caesar.

"Just after" (Confestim): This term establishes a historical cause-and-effect link. The fall of the Temple is seen as the immediate consequence of the injustice committed against the Man of the Logos.

5. The Acts of the Martyrs (Roman Legal Records)
These are not fairy tales; they are court transcripts. When a Roman proconsul asked a Christian, "Why do you not offer incense to the Emperor?" and they replied, "Because my King is risen," the notary recorded everything.
No one allows themselves to be torn apart by wild beasts for a "grief-driven hallucination." Roman historiography documents a phenomenon of mass resistance with no equal. The Resurrection is the only logical explanation for a behavior so "irrational" in the eyes of the Romans.

These are historiographical proofs. I am not trying to "convince" anyone; I am simply presenting data


-Giammarco
 
I would like to start by bringing forward some irrefutable historiographical evidence. These are not "theological opinions," but historical data coming directly from the Roman Empire—an authority that, at the time, was actively trying to suppress and erase Christianity.

1. Publius Cornelius Tacitus – Annales (XV, 44), 116 A.D.

"Auctor nominis eius Christus Tiberio imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat; repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio rursum erumpebat..."

"The author of this name, Christ, had been executed by the procurator Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius; but that pernicious superstition, repressed for the moment, broke out again..."

Tacitus has no interest in lying; he actually loathes the movement, calling it a "pernicious superstition" (exitiabilis superstitio). However, by stating that the movement was momentarily suppressed by Christ's death but then "broke out again" (rursum erumpebat), Tacitus is historically documenting the birth of a movement founded on the Resurrection. It is proof that the faith in that event was powerful enough to shake the Empire only a few years after the facts.

2. Pliny the Younger – (Epistulae X, 96), 112 A.D.

"...quod essent soliti stato die ante lucem convenire, carmenque Christo quasi deo dicere secum invicem seque sacramento non in scelus aliquod obstringere, sed ne furta ne latrocinia ne adulteria committerent..."

This demonstrates that the cult of Christ's divinity is not a medieval invention but was standard practice under Emperor Trajan (112 A.D.). A Roman magistrate certifies that these men did not worship a "dead teacher," but a living God (quasi deo).

Sacramento: Note the use of this term. The Christians bound themselves with an oath (sacramentum) to never commit crimes. A "mass psychosis" does not produce such a rigorous and stable ethical system.

3. Flavius Josephus – Testimonium Flavianum (Antiquities of the Jews, XVIII, 63-64)

"At this time there was a wise man named Jesus... He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles... And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him... and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."

Josephus was a Jew who went over to the Romans—a man who understood both worlds perfectly.

"Condemned to the cross" (Cruci damnatum): This is legal certification. The cross was the penalty for rebels against the State. It confirms Jesus was a real man who challenged the most powerful power structure in the world.

"Did not forsake him" (Non desierunt): This is the core of the Resurrection. In the original context, it indicates a continuous action—an obsession that death did not interrupt. Why didn't they stop? Because, as documented, they had seen Him alive.

"Tribe of Christians" (Genos Christianon): Josephus uses a term that indicates a "lineage" or a "new race." Not an opinion, but a people born from an event.

4. Mara Bar Serapion (Letter to his son, circa 73 A.D.)

"What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that their kingdom was abolished... But the wise King did not die; he lived on in the laws he had given."

This letter directly links the death of Christ to the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. It confirms that the "King" continues to live through his influence. It proves that as early as 73 A.D., the link between Christ and the geopolitical disaster of Jerusalem was clear to all lucid observers.

"Wise King": He recognizes Christ's legal and moral authority. In a Roman context, "King" was a title that stood in direct defiance of Caesar.

"Just after" (Confestim): This term establishes a historical cause-and-effect link. The fall of the Temple is seen as the immediate consequence of the injustice committed against the Man of the Logos.

5. The Acts of the Martyrs (Roman Legal Records)
These are not fairy tales; they are court transcripts. When a Roman proconsul asked a Christian, "Why do you not offer incense to the Emperor?" and they replied, "Because my King is risen," the notary recorded everything.
No one allows themselves to be torn apart by wild beasts for a "grief-driven hallucination." Roman historiography documents a phenomenon of mass resistance with no equal. The Resurrection is the only logical explanation for a behavior so "irrational" in the eyes of the Romans.

These are historiographical proofs. I am not trying to "convince" anyone; I am simply presenting data


-Giammarco
Perfecto 🔥
 
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