The morality of "owning" cats? (Cat owners please read)

the said:
Animal owning is essentially slavery and mental abuse.
Click to expand...
For the owner.

Cats can get me around their little claw without any resistance.




In terms of the morality of keeping an animal - as long as you are not cruel to it, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Animals don't have a concept of an "ideal life" - and so they don't miss what they "might" have... a cat paradise, or whatever. Even if they did, is it cruel that very few people achieve an "ideal life" - when learning to enjoy one's real life is often so much more character-building.

I think you ought to give the cat some liberty - and if she wants to stick with you, she will.

As for de-sexing - again the cat has no concept of wanting to have a big family with lots of grand-kittens. It's more up to you. Personally, I would let her have one litter and then have her de-sexed. Mother cats are soooooo awesome. I'd then find good homes for most of the kittens, but keep one female - and have her desexed young. That way you would have a permanent mother-baby cat dynamic.
 
Flavus Aquila said:
For the owner.

Cats can get me around their little claw without any resistance.




In terms of the morality of keeping an animal - as long as you are not cruel to it, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Animals don't have a concept of an "ideal life" - and so they don't miss what they "might" have... a cat paradise, or whatever. Even if they did, is it cruel that very few people achieve an "ideal life" - when learning to enjoy one's real life is often so much more character-building.

I think you ought to give the cat some liberty - and if she wants to stick with you, she will.

As for de-sexing - again the cat has no concept of wanting to have a big family with lots of grand-kittens. It's more up to you. Personally, I would let her have one litter and then have her de-sexed. Mother cats are soooooo awesome. I'd then find good homes for most of the kittens, but keep one female - and have her desexed young. That way you would have a permanent mother-baby cat dynamic.
Click to expand...

It's true. It is in a way slavery and mental abuse for the owner. That's the whole reason this thread exists.

I don't think you should assume though that cat's don't have a concept of an "ideal life". I don't think you really know this. I wouldn't be surprised if cats craved the "ideal life" but didn't really understand what it was or why they craved it. Maybe my cat wants something but she doesn't know that that something is kittens.

I actually really thought of letting her have one litter as an option. My three options were 1) get her spayed 2) let her have one litter of kittens so that she can experience motherhood and then have her spayed, that way I didn't completely rob her of the experience 3) help her to re-establish a new territory somewhere in the jungle, ween her off of the food I give her until she learns to be independent and a good hunter.

She's already an excellent hunter by nature though. I'm looking at a dead gecko right now as I type this. Very morbid looking. She ripped it's belly open and it's guts are hanging out.

The suggestion of keeping one of the kittens is an amazing idea, it would be cool for there to be a mother-baby dynamic. I think it would make her happy to have a cat friend. Especially if that cat friend was one of her own offspring.
 
veryINFJ said:
It's true. It is in a way slavery and mental abuse for the owner. That's the whole reason this thread exists.

I don't think you should assume though that cat's don't have a concept of an "ideal life". I don't think you really know this. I wouldn't be surprised if cats craved the "ideal life" but didn't really understand what it was or why they craved it. Maybe my cat wants something but she doesn't know that that something is kittens.

I actually really thought of letting her have one litter as an option. My three options were 1) get her spayed 2) let her have one litter of kittens so that she can experience motherhood and then have her spayed, that way I didn't completely rob her of the experience 3) help her to re-establish a new territory somewhere in the jungle, ween her off of the food I give her until she learns to be independent and a good hunter.

She's already an excellent hunter by nature though. I'm looking at a dead gecko right now as I type this. Very morbid looking. She ripped it's belly open and it's guts are hanging out.

The suggestion of keeping one of the kittens is an amazing idea, it would be cool for there to be a mother-baby dynamic. I think it would make her happy to have a cat friend. Especially if that cat friend was one of her own offspring.
Click to expand...

Ideal cat situations are more about our ideas than anything actually in the cat's head. There's nowhere that wild cats migrate to, or fight over as an ideal spot. Cats hang around food supplies, have some favourite sleepy-zones, and these become territorial. A cat isn't relaxed when it's in some cool, beautiful, pristine place; it is relaxed when it's in a secure, familiar place, which has food and shelter - and has the notion of being home.

If you were to drop your cat off in some awesome cat environment in the jungle, it would probably die, live a difficult short life, or somehow find its way home. Some cats have been known to travel thousands of kilometers to get back to their home.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...000-miles-Australia-home-owners-relocate.html
 
Flavus Aquila said:
Ideal cat situations are more about our ideas than anything actually in the cat's head. There's nowhere that wild cats migrate to, or fight over as an ideal spot. Cats hang around food supplies, have some favourite sleepy-zones, and these become territorial. A cat isn't relaxed when it's in some cool, beautiful, pristine place; it is relaxed when it's in a secure, familiar place, which has food and shelter - and has the notion of being home.

If you were to drop your cat off in some awesome cat environment in the jungle, it would probably die, live a difficult short life, or somehow find its way home. Some cats have been known to travel thousands of kilometers to get back to their home.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...000-miles-Australia-home-owners-relocate.html
Click to expand...

Cats improve on this ability as they get older. People can't exactly figure out how they do it. I read about a study that was conducted on cats where they sedated cats and drove them to different locations at different angles from their territory. When the cats woke up in an unfamiliar place, almost all of them started traveling in the angle that would return them to their territory. Even though their territory was very far away and there was no way for them to know which angle to take. The cats improve on this ability as they get older and some scientists believe trace metals accumulate in the cats brain and the cat can actually sense the earths magnetic field. This is how they find their home.
[MENTION=12656]Elegant Winter[/MENTION]

can voltaire do that?

Cats that live in my area do very well in the wild, minus the parasites they deal with, specifically worms. I literally see a gecko every 10 feet I walk, they are EVERYWHERE. Also there are tons of jungle rats, they nest in the coconut trees and survive off of nuts, roots, and other random shit. There is a whole population of wild cats where I live. It's fascinating. If you go out to a park at night you will see tons of wild cats on the prowl. They are just wild animals here and no matter how many are euthanized the population stays strong.

The cats that grow up wild are much meaner though. My cat would probably get her ass kicked because she's not built like that.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
veryINFJ said:
Cats improve on this ability as they get older. People can't exactly figure out how they do it. I read about a study that was conducted on cats where they sedated cats and drove them to different locations at different angles from their territory. When the cats woke up in an unfamiliar place, almost all of them started traveling in the angle that would return them to their territory. Even though their territory was very far away and there was no way for them to know which angle to take. The cats improve on this ability as they get older and some scientists believe trace metals accumulate in the cats brain and the cat can actually sense the earths magnetic field. This is how they find their home.
[MENTION=12656]Elegant Winter[/MENTION]

can voltaire do that?
Click to expand...

Yea, with a compass.
 
Look there is a ton of information from cat behavior specialists..vets etc... most of them say its not a good idea to let them have a liter just to let them have a liter. In tbe end you are going to choose whatever, but dont think that if you make that choice you are actually doing something thats better for the cat than not. If you do it because of the "awesome baby mother dynamic" as its been put you are doing that for yourself. Most things I have read are, fix and keep indoors. The cats of today are not outdoor cats. Its our fault we made them like that but it is what it is.
 
Eventhorizon said:
Look there is a ton of information from cat behavior specialists..vets etc... most of them say its not a good idea to let them have a liter just to let them have a liter. In tbe end you are going to choose whatever, but dont think that if you make that choice you are actually doing something thats better for the cat than not. If you do it because of the "awesome baby mother dynamic" as its been put you are doing that for yourself. Most things I have read are, fix and keep indoors. The cats of today are not outdoor cats. Its our fault we made them like that but it is what it is.
Click to expand...

What if you don't like pure-breeds?

If everyone followed that advice, the tabby would disappear. It's not the pampered house cat, with owners who will vet any potential adoptive owners of the kittens that are over-populating the feline world. It's the vicious, dangerous alley-cat mafia that's doing it.

Muir-tribute warning: Isn't it likely that most "cat experts" are also cat-breeders? Aren't they just trying to corner the market for these lovable furry purr-machines?
 
Flavus Aquila said:
What if you don't like pure-breeds?

If everyone followed that advice, the tabby would disappear. It's not the pampered house cat, with owners who will vet any potential adoptive owners of the kittens that are over-populating the feline world. It's the vicious, dangerous alley-cat mafia that's doing it.

Muir-tribute warning: Isn't it likely that most "cat experts" are also cat-breeders? Aren't they just trying to corner the market for these lovable furry purr-machines?
Click to expand...

You can go online and find all of this information yourself. The feral cat born outside of pure bred will NEVER disappear. We are being a bit dramatic dont you think?
 
[MENTION=862]Flavus Aquila[/MENTION]

I called this morning and cancelled her appointment. I'm going to try and understand her estrus cycles better and give her more freedom than I've been giving her the past few days. If she gets pregnant I will just look at it as an opportunity to learn more about this amazing animals behavior. I think the one litter idea is genius and it's something I was already considering.

Also my cat told me this morning that she didn't want to get spayed. She said "Meow... meow meow meow. Meow meow meow meow meow". I said "fine, if that's not what you want then that's okay, I'll just call and and cancel. You can be very indecisive at times you know" she said "meow meow"
 
I have a cat that has had multiple litters, and which lives outdoors. Still, I very much support spaying.

I do not believe cats experience motherhood in any meaningful way as humans do. They don't gain anything out of it and they will not miss it. Your way of thinking is one that applies to humans, not animals. I don't think this point needs much belaboring; cats lack the abstract thinking and social structure humans do in order to view their offspring meaningfully as we do.

Spaying is very useful, but primarily for the owners. That is not to be underestimated though. Having kittens is cute and all, but it is a mayor pain the ass. Finding homes for the kittens is difficult and in most cases the kittens end up as strays or killed, which is not only painful to conscientious animal caretakers, but it contributes to the ecological problem cat populations pose to other animals, such as birds. You can do some independent research on this, but basically in some environments domestic cats have become an issue because they are predators which lack a predator of their own. Plus, every summer the whole litter would come down with fleas, and because there are limited safe options for flea removal on small kittens, the infestation would get so bad we couldn't go outside without being covered in fleas and bringing them indoors which furthered the infestation.

In my opinion cats that have become used to indoor living exclusively, should not be allowed out. It's different when a cat has been outdoor their whole life, their instincts are much more honed. I know of many cases where people have lost their cats forever that way, still you risk injury to your cat. In your particular case, because of how much meaning you attribute to your cat's motherhood I think letting her have one litter would be a bad idea, because seeing her be all affectionate with her kittens will be heartwarming and will change your opinion. But, it's just their instinct. After some time would pass, and the kittens were grown a bit my cat would always rebuff them violently when they tried to go for the teat, she would hiss and swipe at them. She might still lick them or let them nurse, but the rejection would continue. At present, I have another adult female cat, from the litter of the original cat. She definitely doesn't recognize her as her daughter, and is aggressive to her more often than not.
 
Peppermint said:
I have a cat that has had multiple litters, and which lives outdoors. Still, I very much support spaying.

I do not believe cats experience motherhood in any meaningful way as humans do. They don't gain anything out of it and they will not miss it. Your way of thinking is one that applies to humans, not animals. I don't think this point needs much belaboring; cats lack the abstract thinking and social structure humans do in order to view their offspring meaningfully as we do.

Spaying is very useful, but primarily for the owners. That is not to be underestimated though. Having kittens is cute and all, but it is a mayor pain the ass. Finding homes for the kittens is difficult and in most cases the kittens end up as strays or killed, which is not only painful to conscientious animal caretakers, but it contributes to the ecological problem cat populations pose to other animals, such as birds. You can do some independent research on this, but basically in some environments domestic cats have become an issue because they are predators which lack a predator of their own. Plus, every summer the whole litter would come down with fleas, and because there are limited safe options for flea removal on small kittens, the infestation would get so bad we couldn't go outside without being covered in fleas and bringing them indoors which furthered the infestation.

In my opinion cats that have become used to indoor living exclusively, should not be allowed out. It's different when a cat has been outdoor their whole life, their instincts are much more honed. I know of many cases where people have lost their cats forever that way, still you risk injury to your cat. In your particular case, because of how much meaning you attribute to your cat's motherhood I think letting her have one litter would be a bad idea, because seeing her be all affectionate with her kittens will be heartwarming and will change your opinion. But, it's just their instinct. After some time would pass, and the kittens were grown a bit my cat would always rebuff them violently when they tried to go for the teat, she would hiss and swipe at them. She might still lick them or let them nurse, but the rejection would continue. At present, I have another adult female cat, from the litter of the original cat. She definitely doesn't recognize her as her daughter, and is aggressive to her more often than not.
Click to expand...

man.. flavus aquila made it sound so cool...

you made it sound horrible...

I know that mother cats will carry one of their own offspring away and abandon it if they sense it is weak. So I do see that disconnect. They don't feel emotions the same way we do. But I don't think it is safe to make any assumptions about what emotions they do/don't feel. A human mother normally wouldn't abandon her baby if she thought it was weak or sick but cats do it without thinking twice.

I think all of cats behavior is driven by brain chemicals just like humans. I don't think we can make any assumptions about how those brain chemicals make them feel. Emotions can be driving everything they do just like with humans.

I have seen on nature channel, I forget what type of cat it was. But once the offspring reached a certain size it became competition and was no longer treated like offspring. I don't doubt it's the same for housecats.
[MENTION=751]Peppermint[/MENTION] why do you choose to keep letting your cat have litters?
 
Is this your first cat? She's gonna start spraying. If you have carpet or any furniture/rugs/bedding that have any value I strongly suggest you reconsider if you plan on her being an indoor cat.
 
You also need to think of how you plan on letting your cat have that litter. Do you know someone with a male cat? Will you orchestrate the pregnancy or will you just let her go out and find a mate? Are all of her injections up to date? Letting her go out to find a tom can be dangerous for her health as there are a number of lifelong diseases cats can catch that way.
 
Katniss Neverbeef said:
You also need to think of how you plan on letting your cat have that litter. Do you know someone with a male cat? Will you orchestrate the pregnancy or will you just let her go out and find a mate? Are all of her injections up to date? Letting her go out to find a tom can be dangerous for her health as there are a number of lifelong diseases cats can catch that way.
Click to expand...

Yeah. FIV is a big problem here. Ughh... I'm already worried she might have gotten something from the cat fight she got in.

I spoke to the people at the clinic and they said I can bring her in 20 days from now. I've already changed my mind again. They said the clinic in 20 days will be even better because they will do a bunch of vaccinations and such and it will be donations only. I plan on giving them a generous donation if I do go but I still think it's cool.

I'll probably end up going to the one 20 days from now. I was already regretting not going to the clinic today.
 
CindyLou said:
Is this your first cat? She's gonna start spraying. If you have carpet or any furniture/rugs/bedding that have any value I strongly suggest you reconsider if you plan on her being an indoor cat.
Click to expand...

Yeah she's my first cat. She already went through estrus and she didn't spray at all. So I'm lucky.

Nice to see you back CindyLou... wit yo fine ass...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top