The REAL cost of education

[RRiveter]

Yes that is what we all agree upon and keep re-iterating ;p
[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] [MENTION=5045]Skarekrow[/MENTION] [MENTION=13730]PintoBean[/MENTION]

So if you had a kid who was at the age that he/she is able to attend college/university, what would you recommend that kid to do despite these problems?
In other words what would you do if you had the hindsight you have now ?

I think that telling kids they can be whatever they want in life is a positive thing. Telling all kids they should go to a university and pursue higher education. Terrible idea. They can be whatever they want but that may not make them much money. (Especially if they get into debt going to a university.) That's what we should say.

To give a bit about my background. I am graduating this year with my bachelor's degree from a university in the U.S. I could have received it in four or five years, but I decided to take it slow, study what I wanted and six years later, I am getting my four-year degree. I've worked at the tutoring center there for five years which also gives me some more perspective. When I am finished, I will have $40,000+ in debt with daily interest accruing. (A small amount compared to most U.S. college students.) Also, my parents took a $7,000 loan out for my education and have helped support me throughout the whole experience. I have always had one job, two jobs for most of it and even three jobs at one point and have been poor as fuck.

I am getting a degree in city planning which will get me $17-$27 per hour ($31,000- $49,000 per year) when I graduate IF and WHEN I can get into an entry level job in my field. Minimum wage in my state in the U.S. is quite low at $7.25/ hr. I've worked for this slave wage at many jobs. These days, it is hard to get $7.25/hr jobs without graduating high school.

Enough about me though. You guys are right, many degrees cost buttloads of money and do not allow the graduates to earn much at all in their field. Additionally, they allow 18 year olds to sign a paper saying they will pay back thousands of dollars in four years, or whenever they drop out. Some people have moral struggles about whether or not they should masturbate at 18 and they are asked to make that kind of commitment.

The truth is that not everyone is smart enough for academia, even fewer are disciplined enough, and an incredible amount of people can never do their best when they get into college because they struggle just trying to eat, have confidence, pay rent and survive daily life.

That's three qualifiers right there and I could go on.

I would tell my kids definitely DO NOT go to college right after graduating high school. First try living on your own, see how that is, get into that rhythm. During that time volunteer for things you like, go on road trips, find out who you are, do some drugs, haha. Become confident in who you are, what you are good at, and what you like and try your best to support yourself.

THEN consider going to a technical school or vocational college where they actually teach you real job skills, not just theory and history.
If you are pretty sure you want to be a doctor, geologist, engineer, or something that requires a higher degree, then go for it.

That's how it should be done. Instead, most kids are rushed into college right after high school not knowing themselves or what they want to do or what life is like supporting themselves. They decide what they want to do while they are in college, switching majors which is costly. Now, they are pushing to get rid of the first two years of general classes needed for a bachelor's degree. So, the time they have to make a thousands of dollars decision is even shorter. Its scary and insane.

I know that was a shitload of text, but humans are insecure and self conscious as it is and the education system in the U.S. is set up to get you into debt and make you feel shitty about yourself if you can't cut it at a university. So, you can be poor and insecure.

 

[muir]

Yes that is what we all agree upon and keep re-iterating ;p
@muir @Skarekrow @PintoBean

So if you had a kid who was at the age that he/she is able to attend college/university, what would you recommend that kid to do despite these problems?
In other words what would you do if you had the hindsight you have now ?

Well you are talking about the micro and we were talking about the macro

So at the micro level you could talk about what an individual in the here and now could do and at the macro level you could talk about what society could do and what part individuals can play in that

But they are different levels of the same thing

To answer your question I'd advise a young person that what an employer wants is EXPERIENCE

No amount of theoretical qualifications prove that you are able to do a job. Experience however does show what you have managed already and might even point to your potential

So I would ask a person if they think they could do better by spending several years working their way up from the bottom of something (and making money in the meantime) and possibly doing evening classes to boost their CV or whether they'd be better using those years to go to uni and rack up massive debts in the process?

Also depending on what they feel proficient at they might be better doing vocational training eg nurse or teacher or an apprenticeship where they work with their hands (as well as their head)

So courses at uni might not be the best way to go for everyone and a person who sets out to work their way up from the bottom up might emerge after those years with more money, no debt and more experience than someone who emerges from uni with letters after their name but no real idea of what they are capable of in the work market and who is saddled with debt

I don't want to do education down....there are many good degrees (there are many degrees that are also a load of hogwash) and they enrich our society but at this time where the system is being so burdensome with debt as part of policy i think entering higher education is not to be undertaken lightly

I also think that the internet now offers many innovative ways to make a living. For example when i was younger i thought about becoming a journalist but was so put off by how controlled the media was that i felt it would be a soul crushing waste of time and went off in another direction; however now with the emergence of the independent media there is room for citizen journalists and i thin if i was young now i'd aim to be a part of that hugely exciting growth area

So.....on the macro level we all need to be campaigning to change the system and make education free for all but on the macro level to survive the here and now i'd advise people to be careful taking on debt as it can feel like a huge burden. It might instead be better trying your hand at various things for several years and having a bit of an adventure and emerging from that time with no debt and some interesting experiences

It depends on what the person is suited to also. For example some people are not suited to desk jobs and might prefer gaining a trade; tradesmen are never really out of work and I think in the current climate gaining skills that are useful to society are a good investment as they will ensure you future work

Another factor to consider however is the encroachment of mechanisation as many jobs are going to be lost over the next decade to mechanisation so ask yourself if your chosen career could become under threat and maybe seek some advise about that before you invest too much of yourself into something that could get snatched away over coming years

So yeah...education is one thing but useful skills and experience are golden in terms of finding work

And there is always going off grid as an option and joining off grid communities and/or doing voluntary work on them or with organic growers etc as a taster to learn whats involved in such things before making any commitments

 

[Artisan]

But for any one else, it just couldn't work. Again, that is another great option. And that's the point of [MENTION=11651]Artisan[/MENTION]'s question I think, what are the options? You, [MENTION=13729]Free2be[/MENTION], and [MENTION=13730]PintoBean[/MENTION] have given some really good answers as possible solutions. Like Free said, everyone needs to choose which of the available options would work for them. But the point is finding all the options available.

Yeah that is exactly what I mean.

So if you had a kid who was at the age that he/she is able to attend college/university, what would you recommend that kid to do despite these problems?
In other words what would you do if you had the hindsight you have now ?

I heard some really good arguments and advice going around like that people should wait before starting a study till they know for sure that is the study they want to do. If I were to recommend a direction for a study then I would recommend doing something that gives you the chance to become a freelancer in it/start your own small company. That way if you get laid off or cannot land a job, you have a chance of landing your own clients if you go out looking for them.

A lot of studies teach things that you can self learn through the use of the internet, they require you to write reports and read books. You can practically do that yourself, granted you wont have a degree but it's not like those studies often are for jobs with a lot of vacancies ;p I think something one should keep in mind is, does this study give me some skill for which I actually need a degree? Take programming jobs for example. They all list a requirement because it indicates a measurable level of minimum proficiency. With Art/Design stuff, you actually don't need any degree because you can show your proficiency through a portfolio.

So what I would recommend for people needing to choose now coincides with a lot of things others have said, but I would say, hold it off a year and make sure it is what you really want. In the meantime get a job to save up a little for your school supplies which always require a laptop now a days. Ask around for people who have done said study and ask them what it was like for them, what the job market is truly like for them and if possible ask them to introduce you to relevant subjects of the study/teach you some of the skills so that you have an easier start and better understanding of what you will be tought when in the studyprogram.

Looking for study grands and other ways to cover the majority of your studies is pretty much a must wherever you live, and I suggest everyone should look into that stuff. But most of all, I would recommend going for studies that give you some kind of skill set and to try develop that skill set or atleast tune your mind into trying to learn it before you start. Because the more proficient you are at it during your study, the more spare time you will have to explore other venues an create more material of your own. (example if you study architecture, if you already know how to make said drawings you will be faster at completing them and will have time to put into drawing more of your own ideas for your portfolio)


[MENTION=2890]Lerxst[/MENTION] I am not sure about this thing you mentioned about germany. the reason for that is that most likely this only applies to German students. my country has/ha a similar program (that is now being replaced by the american model), in which national born students their study debt was cleared away for them if they graduated within 10 years of starting a study, we also got a very low rate study loan if we applied for one so we could cover food and housing. this rate was so low that some even loaned the maximum amount and put this on a savings account because they would actually make profit from it.. So whilst Germany may offer free studies for its own citizens, it might not for international students. So I think this is something worth looking into. If it does do this for international students tho then I definitely recommend taking them up on the free education.