The Syrian Clusterfuck

Skarekrow said:
We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Statistics show that immigrants are far more law-abiding than their US born counterparts.
Also many more are trained for skilled labor than the US currently has trained or is willing to help get trained.
I really don’t think that most people coming to the US, hate the US.
I can look for polls if you want, but I can guess at what they might say.
I hate the form of Capitalism we currently have...it’s unsustainable.
Does that mean the country is crumbling since I have such an opinion?
I think most people who come here respect the laws and follow the laws.
Click to expand...
Have you ever worked with illegals? Cause I have. My father in law hired about 200 of them. When I was doing plumbing. The trades have standards that must be followed in order for the job to be done correctly. You must first speak English so you can get an apprenticeship card to even be on the job working. Same goes for electricians. None of our guys had cards. I had a card and was enrolled in college to learn the math and other related skills for doing commercial plumbing. The vast majority did not want to live in the USA. They send the money home. And when they get a couple hundred grand saved up they will go back. They got paid way lower than the average wage for commercial plumbers. Which in turn hurt us card carrying plumbers. Our wages went down. And the culture on the job site became all Spanish. Gringos we're very few on the jobs I worked in DC. It wasn't that they didn't want to work. But when you have a license and all your tools and they will only pay you 15 an hour. Plus your in class to get your journeymans license. This comes at your expense. I paid for all that. Plus the 86 mile a day drive I was doing to get to work. It was not worth the trouble. They are taking advantage of these people. And in turn screwing the citizens who were paying for things. If Mexico is for us just letting anyone in why aren't they? I was told point blank that if I went to Mexico as a gringo they would kill me and take my stuff. They don't tolorate that down there. But we have to here? If the government refuses to protect the borders of this country we have no country. It's over. There is no need for the federal government to exist. Their first duty is to secure and protected our borders. Period. It's foolish to believe that all people are good. Many are not. If you just walk in you are disrespecting the laws of the USA. You have zero respect for what it means to be a citizen of the United States. You came here illegally your a criminal the second you cross the border. And your mindset is that your above the law that the rules do not apply to you. Why shouldn't I just be the same? Why should I respect you or your property? Or your country? There cannot be a lower standard for citizens. If there is then citizenship means nothing. Then why have a country at all?
Both parties are guilty of selling this country down the river. They have been lobbied by the corporations so that they can get around being regulated. This country no longer cares about its citizens. Rome came to the same situation. And collapsed because of it. Neither party can be trusted. And a lot of the should be tried and jailed for treason against the USA. They have transferred the jobs to China for profit. But look how they treat their employees. The pay they get is way too low by western standards. We are guilty of corporate slavery because we buy this Chinese shit. It's all mostly garbage. Chinese pipe is shit. Chinese auto parts are shit. I know from first hand experience using the crap. I do everything I can to not buy Chinese. They are no friends of the USA.

Mexico should be a friend of the USA. She should bring back manufacturing to the USA and Mexico. There is zero reason to deal with the Chinese when we have people who want to work in Mexico that are running into the USA. Looking for a job.

One must never forget that the USA is a representative republic. Not a democracy. The republic works off of the principle that individual rights are more important than group rights. If you do the democracy route it's majority rule. Which was never intended by the founding fathers. We are all too comfortable to care. Just like the Germans were right before they started ww2. The Jews were losing their freedom and money through majority rule. The citizens were fine with it. And look what happened. Majority rule is mob rule and the mob will rule cruelly. They will find a way to punish those who do not want to comply. Is that freedom? To have others get in a group and take away your rights? The American citizen today cares nothing about protecting their rights. Knows nothing about the government that is supposed to work for them not against them. The better solution is to help those countries develop there own economies and let them thrive where they live. Let them keep there culture and I'll keep mine. You have responsibilities as a legal citizen of this country. And if your apathetic about your country and your rights you soon will have none. All of these problems were caused by people we elected. People we trusted. They broke the trust with the American public. And they still have a job? That shows you right there that most people want to be controlled. They don't want to be actual citizens who are informed and active in their government. A standard must be set and kept if you want to have a good peaceful country.
 
Skarekrow said:
And on welfare - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ly-collecting-welfare/?utm_term=.b7c7d5408821
Click to expand...

Trump said the points system would not allow immigrants to “just immediately go and collect welfare.” But that’s not really how the system works right now; most immigrants are ineligible for public benefits “immediately.” What is Trump talking about?
Click to expand...
This is a hot-button issue in Sweden right now. I think America is in the right to do this. This question alone is turning Swedish politics on its head right now, and established parties are heavily losing voters to our nationalistic party for ignoring the popular opinion on this.

There are some exceptions, including asylees, refugees, people with a military connection and victims of trafficking.
Click to expand...
If refugees are exempt from these rules then that would still be same issue as we have in Europe. Pretty much anyone is considered a refugee in these times, and as shameful as it is it is really taking a toll on our economy and infrastructure.

What we've seen in Sweden, and presumably throughout Europe is that the immigration crisis is an economic catastrophe. Initially politicians spoke about the economic advantages that comes with immigrating a work force, but it fails on so many points both long- and short-term that it can no longer be seen as a feasible argument.

Back to America. From the article it seems like what keeps immigrants from receiving benefits is simply put that they aren't eligible to. Those who are, or those who find loop holes, still do. To me it sounds more like two sides trying to skew the information in their favor, in how they measure immigration statistics.

@Skarekrow
What do you think, would you either prefer that the 5-year rule on welfare be lifted, or see it work as intended?
Do you think a welfare system with no borders is sustainable?
 
efromm said:
Have you ever worked with illegals? Cause I have. My father in law hired about 200 of them. When I was doing plumbing. The trades have standards that must be followed in order for the job to be done correctly. You must first speak English so you can get an apprenticeship card to even be on the job working. Same goes for electricians. None of our guys had cards. I had a card and was enrolled in college to learn the math and other related skills for doing commercial plumbing. The vast majority did not want to live in the USA. They send the money home. And when they get a couple hundred grand saved up they will go back. They got paid way lower than the average wage for commercial plumbers. Which in turn hurt us card carrying plumbers. Our wages went down. And the culture on the job site became all Spanish. Gringos we're very few on the jobs I worked in DC. It wasn't that they didn't want to work. But when you have a license and all your tools and they will only pay you 15 an hour. Plus your in class to get your journeymans license. This comes at your expense. I paid for all that. Plus the 86 mile a day drive I was doing to get to work. It was not worth the trouble. They are taking advantage of these people. And in turn screwing the citizens who were paying for things. If Mexico is for us just letting anyone in why aren't they? I was told point blank that if I went to Mexico as a gringo they would kill me and take my stuff. They don't tolorate that down there. But we have to here? If the government refuses to protect the borders of this country we have no country. It's over. There is no need for the federal government to exist. Their first duty is to secure and protected our borders. Period. It's foolish to believe that all people are good. Many are not. If you just walk in you are disrespecting the laws of the USA. You have zero respect for what it means to be a citizen of the United States. You came here illegally your a criminal the second you cross the border. And your mindset is that your above the law that the rules do not apply to you. Why shouldn't I just be the same? Why should I respect you or your property? Or your country? There cannot be a lower standard for citizens. If there is then citizenship means nothing. Then why have a country at all?
Both parties are guilty of selling this country down the river. They have been lobbied by the corporations so that they can get around being regulated. This country no longer cares about its citizens. Rome came to the same situation. And collapsed because of it. Neither party can be trusted. And a lot of the should be tried and jailed for treason against the USA. They have transferred the jobs to China for profit. But look how they treat their employees. The pay they get is way too low by western standards. We are guilty of corporate slavery because we buy this Chinese shit. It's all mostly garbage. Chinese pipe is shit. Chinese auto parts are shit. I know from first hand experience using the crap. I do everything I can to not buy Chinese. They are no friends of the USA.

Mexico should be a friend of the USA. She should bring back manufacturing to the USA and Mexico. There is zero reason to deal with the Chinese when we have people who want to work in Mexico that are running into the USA. Looking for a job.

One must never forget that the USA is a representative republic. Not a democracy. The republic works off of the principle that individual rights are more important than group rights. If you do the democracy route it's majority rule. Which was never intended by the founding fathers. We are all too comfortable to care. Just like the Germans were right before they started ww2. The Jews were losing their freedom and money through majority rule. The citizens were fine with it. And look what happened. Majority rule is mob rule and the mob will rule cruelly. They will find a way to punish those who do not want to comply. Is that freedom? To have others get in a group and take away your rights? The American citizen today cares nothing about protecting their rights. Knows nothing about the government that is supposed to work for them not against them. The better solution is to help those countries develop there own economies and let them thrive where they live. Let them keep there culture and I'll keep mine. You have responsibilities as a legal citizen of this country. And if your apathetic about your country and your rights you soon will have none. All of these problems were caused by people we elected. People we trusted. They broke the trust with the American public. And they still have a job? That shows you right there that most people want to be controlled. They don't want to be actual citizens who are informed and active in their government. A standard must be set and kept if you want to have a good peaceful country.
Click to expand...

I agree with you on many points you made but disagree on others.
A lot of the issue can be blamed on the drug trade and the subsequent “war on drugs” that ended the open border the seasonal migrants employed to do things like pick grapes (I grew up in Bakersfield...there were many, many legal and illegal immigrants, mostly Mexican) that was then cut off - giving them incentive to stay here illegally instead of just returning for the harvest season then going home, where at that time (Reagan) this was people’s only job prospects and it paid well comparatively to jobs back home.
Again...we still do this, like folks who take construction jobs in Saudi Arabia or surrounding human rights violators and those who really hate America.
Why?
It pays way more than it does here...and then they take the money back home.
I have no problems with them sending money back home...that happens all around the world...a good friend of mine went to teach “business English” to Japanese businessmen and sent money back home - so what?
Also statistically most pay their taxes though they cannot legally access any entitlements.
But I’m not just talking about illegal immigrants...I’m taking immigrants in general...they have been shown to be much better citizens of this country than us “native”-born here are.
I just don’t feel the separatist inclinations you express...why can’t cultures mix?
That isn’t being apathetic, that is being progressive.
Unless you meant that in a way I’m totally misinterpreting, then I’m sorry.
I agree with your sentiments on our government and those who have broken the public trust and have sold us out - who continue to do so.
Not so much on your views of democracy, but that’s cool...we’re entitled to our views.
I do agree that our so-called “democracy” is in a very sad state...and there are a lot of people who are apathetic or just ignorant (most willingly) of the lack of rights we have, or don’t have.
I think that there are probably areas of Mexico where they would rob you and kill you...just like there are areas of the US where they would do the same to someone of “color”.
Rallies like Charlottesville are the vilest of the vile...and I think our President endorsed it.
I’m not actually endorsing illegal immigration myself...but I think the DACA kids should be allowed to become citizens - they have more than proven they would be beneficial to our society, most love the country and want to stay, many want to serve in the military.
We should want those types of people here...but we’re going to send them back to a country they don’t know and make them wait a mandatory 10 years before they can apply to come in and then jump through all the flaming hoops to become citizens in the country they already call home?
It just seems cruel and unnecessary...and those who have actually checked in with ICE as illegal and were here on their whim, who played by the rules knowing that they could be deported for breaking the law were for many years allowed to live and work here...and if they weren’t finding work, then they wouldn’t be here - so just saying, folks like your Father in Law who hires them or the construction companies who hire them and fuck it up for everyone are the real assholes here not the illegals without a trade card - no one cared enough to make them go get one because they worked on the cheap - but that still is the fault of those who hired them being greedy assholes - people like Trump.
I don’t know what the answers are...I wish I did.
I just don’t feel that breaking apart families that have been allowed to live here known to ICE for decades are now being rounded up with no criminal reason besides the fact they are illegally here.
It just seems cruel to me, that there should be a better and kinder way to deal with this issue, which would actually help our economy...not amnesty but a way to verify those who have been here for some time and have played by the rules and paid their taxes and did everything right besides overstaying a work visa 30 years ago should be given a chance to have a path to citizenship without shipping Grandpa off on a prison bus.
I agree with your assessment of Chinese crap and that also being our fault, but again, it is the fault of those who wanted to pay less for production and got the cheap shit from China to begin with...it was the consumers fault for putting up with low quality shit...but when wages have stagnated since 1980...people gotta eat.
Anyhow...ttyl...take care!
 
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Elis said:
@Skarekrow
What do you think, would you either prefer that the 5-year rule on welfare be lifted, or see it work as intended?
Do you think a welfare system with no borders is sustainable?
Click to expand...

Oh god...I honestly do not know...I think it depends on if you can verify they have been paying taxes as many actually do...but I’m sure there are many factors I am just ignorant to, I don’t think a welfare system with no borders is sustainable, but we are also paying for the ER services that illegals end up using (provided they don’t pay their bill...which is usually crazy high since they can’t legally get insurance), so that cost gets spread out over the cost the rest of the paying customers pay - so maybe some kind of basic insurance should be offered...it’s an idea anyhow...not sure of the logistics of that, lol.
I think that the 5 year deal should be gone over on a case by case basis and a decision should be made by more than one person if they are indeed in need of some kind of assistance and what the requirements for maintaining those will be.
 
Skarekrow said:
I agree with you on many points you made but disagree on others.
A lot of the issue can be blamed on the drug trade and the subsequent “war on drugs” that ended the open border the seasonal migrants employed to do things like pick grapes (I grew up in Bakersfield...there were many, many legal and illegal immigrants, mostly Mexican) that was then cut off - giving them incentive to stay here illegally instead of just returning for the harvest season then going home, where at that time (Reagan) this was people’s only job prospects and it paid well comparatively to jobs back home.
Again...we still do this, like folks who take construction jobs in Saudi Arabia or surrounding human rights violators and those who really hate America.
Why?
It pays way more than it does here...and then they take the money back home.
I have no problems with them sending money back home...that happens all around the world...a good friend of mine went to teach “business English” to Japanese businessmen and sent money back home - so what?
Also statistically most pay their taxes though they cannot legally access any entitlements.
But I’m not just talking about illegal immigrants...I’m taking immigrants in general...they have been shown to be much better citizens of this country than us “native”-born here are.
I just don’t feel the separatist inclinations you express...why can’t cultures mix?
That isn’t being apathetic, that is being progressive.
Unless you meant that in a way I’m totally misinterpreting, then I’m sorry.
I agree with your sentiments on our government and those who have broken the public trust and have sold us out - who continue to do so.
Not so much on your views of democracy, but that’s cool...we’re entitled to our views.
I do agree that our so-called “democracy” is in a very sad state...and there are a lot of people who are apathetic or just ignorant (most willingly) of the lack of rights we have, or don’t have.
I think that there are probably areas of Mexico where they would rob you and kill you...just like there are areas of the US where they would do the same to someone of “color”.
Rallies like Charlottesville are the vilest of the vile...and I think our President endorsed it.
I’m not actually endorsing illegal immigration myself...but I think the DACA kids should be allowed to become citizens - they have more than proven they would be beneficial to our society, most love the country and want to stay, many want to serve in the military.
We should want those types of people here...but we’re going to send them back to a country they don’t know and make them wait a mandatory 10 years before they can apply to come in and then jump through all the flaming hoops to become citizens in the country they already call home?
It just seems cruel and unnecessary...and those who have actually checked in with ICE as illegal and were here on their whim, who played by the rules knowing that they could be deported for breaking the law were for many years allowed to live and work here...and if they weren’t finding work, then they wouldn’t be here - so just saying, folks like your Father in Law who hires them or the construction companies who hire them and fuck it up for everyone are the real assholes here not the illegals without a trade card - no one cared enough to make them go get one because they worked on the cheap - but that still is the fault of those who hired them being greedy assholes - people like Trump.
I don’t know what the answers are...I wish I did.
I just don’t feel that breaking apart families that have been allowed to live here known to ICE for decades are now being rounded up with no criminal reason besides the fact they are illegally here.
It just seems cruel to me, that there should be a better and kinder way to deal with this issue, which would actually help our economy...not amnesty but a way to verify those who have been here for some time and have played by the rules and paid their taxes and did everything right besides overstaying a work visa 30 years ago should be given a chance to have a path to citizenship without shipping Grandpa off on a prison bus.
I agree with your assessment of Chinese crap and that also being our fault, but again, it is the fault of those who wanted to pay less for production and got the cheap shit from China to begin with...it was the consumers fault for putting up with low quality shit...but when wages have stagnated since 1980...people gotta eat.
Anyhow...ttyl...take care!
Click to expand...
You can't have a country without borders. It's better to help them develop their own country. Even the Native Americans had tribes that had borders. Your missing my point about citizenship being the corner stone of the American republic. Your giving my citizenship away. By allowing those who have chosen to break the law. Continue to do so. Why do I have to follow the rules? Why did the laws apply only to the gringo? I've known two people personally that have died in California who were killed by illegals drinking and driving without a license. No insurance either. I'm just letting you know that at some point citizens will stop obeying the laws. You will have lawlessness in the future. Why should I get a contractors license insurance and pay workers comp when I can just hire illegals? And go off of the books like they do. My father in law was not allowed to ask about their status. To just take the info they gave him and hire them. Ice hauled quite a few back to El Salvador. Within a month I saw most of them back working on other job sites. One of the things that I did not like about working on a job site where no one spoke English was that your life was in danger constantly because when I was to be warned about falling objects I did not speak Spanish. So I never knew if I was in danger. I had a friend on the job site that was from Guatemala read to me what was written on the shit house walls. It was all anti gringo. You can pretend that they like the gringo but I was only accepted by those who were legally here. Even Kenny caught shit for talking like the gringos.
 
efromm said:
You can't have a country without borders. It's better to help them develop their own country. Even the Native Americans had tribes that had borders. Your missing my point about citizenship being the corner stone of the American republic. Your giving my citizenship away. By allowing those who have chosen to break the law. Continue to do so. Why do I have to follow the rules? Why did the laws apply only to the gringo? I've known two people personally that have died in California who were killed by illegals drinking and driving without a license. No insurance either. I'm just letting you know that at some point citizens will stop obeying the laws. You will have lawlessness in the future. Why should I get a contractors license insurance and pay workers comp when I can just hire illegals? And go off of the books like they do. My father in law was not allowed to ask about their status. To just take the info they gave him and hire them. Ice hauled quite a few back to El Salvador. Within a month I saw most of them back working on other job sites. One of the things that I did not like about working on a job site where no one spoke English was that your life was in danger constantly because when I was to be warned about falling objects I did not speak Spanish. So I never knew if I was in danger. I had a friend on the job site that was from Guatemala read to me what was written on the shit house walls. It was all anti gringo. You can pretend that they like the gringo but I was only accepted by those who were legally here. Even Kenny caught shit for talking like the gringos.
Click to expand...

Don’t know Kenny. ;)
I don’t believe that they all hate “gringos”...only certain obviously racist folks that do exist here.
Not saying that breaking the rules or laws should be without consequences either - but that the punishment for the crimes does not need to be so cruel as tearing a family apart.
We decide what happens to them...we make the laws.
I won’t deny that many came here illegally to live and that that is a breaking of our laws.
My point is, the majority are not dangerous and violent criminals - and statistically that is backed up.
I’m sorry about your friends who were killed.
Drunk drivers are a dime a dozen in the US - I’ve seen my share of both them and those they hurt or kill working on the ambulance, the ER, and the OR.
There is no correlation between illegal aliens and drunk driving increases.
Some states did have the ability to give drivers licenses and insurance...I think CA still does.
I also don’t see the correlation to more lawlessness.
Isn’t there a way to verify the legal right to work?
I know I’ve always had to supply a SS card or other such things - if they don’t and are being hired regardless - then it is those hiring adding to the problem by supplying the reason for immigration (i.e a job).
How am I giving away your citizenship?
The very citizenship you earned by being born here?
You and most of us who were born here were just lucky (or unlucky depending on your views) to be born here...we didn’t earn anything.
How does your perceived right to have human rights lessen because someone else circumvented the laws in most cases to escape violence and poverty or both...or even just to find a better life for themselves and their family?
Illegal immigration has been demonized by racist politicians for so many decades now, and there really isn’t any data showing truly negative impacts - in fact, if we deported them all the US stands to take a huge hit to our economy.
And again...the DACA kids have proven themselves worthy to live here as Americans.
That is more than many native born folks can say.
We should have borders and we do have borders...what we don’t need is a taxpayer funded or military funded giant wall that is hardly the most effective way to deal with this issue.
Start enforcing the hiring practices and laws if you are so upset about them stealing our jobs - they are not the ones circumventing the hiring laws to save a few bucks...it is all about profits right?
You can hire whomever you like and not hire just as easily.
Here in the US we like to profit on those we can easily take advantage of, willing to work for less than what is law, those who cannot fight back, or have a voice for themselves or the group...this is not different.
Our priorities in the US are severely out of whack.
We care more about profits then we do about people...native or otherwise.
Racism works both ways...both sides are guilty and both sides do things that encourage the bad behavior of the other side.
 
I am listening. We have substandard cultures in America. People south of the border come here to work and make money. Many people here try to find ways for the gov to give them money. I worked illegals years back. Nowadays, it is difficult to find someone willing to do hard physical labor, and God forbid you correct someone. It becomes a racial thing because they are having to be told stupid things, so they sigh and snatch or frown or say something back. Give me a few Mexicans any day.

I was told to sit in the truck. I believe I may start telling people to just go home, but wil;l they call their friends and destroy something? Our country is bringing up a substandard class of people because everyone wants to use them for political gain, but nobody seems to be willing to help them. One last week told me all he wanted was big money, whatever he had to do. Teach your children well. Stuff a 25 year pacifier in their mouths, buy them a cell phone and nice car, and watch their standards drive them straight to hell in a handbasket. The inner city youth is screwed and they know it. Someone forgot to bring up their parents properly so they could bring up their children properly. It is sad to see.
 
Skarekrow said:
Don’t know Kenny. ;)
I don’t believe that they all hate “gringos”...only certain obviously racist folks that do exist here.
Not saying that breaking the rules or laws should be without consequences either - but that the punishment for the crimes does not need to be so cruel as tearing a family apart.
We decide what happens to them...we make the laws.
I won’t deny that many came here illegally to live and that that is a breaking of our laws.
My point is, the majority are not dangerous and violent criminals - and statistically that is backed up.
I’m sorry about your friends who were killed.
Drunk drivers are a dime a dozen in the US - I’ve seen my share of both them and those they hurt or kill working on the ambulance, the ER, and the OR.
There is no correlation between illegal aliens and drunk driving increases.
Some states did have the ability to give drivers licenses and insurance...I think CA still does.
I also don’t see the correlation to more lawlessness.
Isn’t there a way to verify the legal right to work?
I know I’ve always had to supply a SS card or other such things - if they don’t and are being hired regardless - then it is those hiring adding to the problem by supplying the reason for immigration (i.e a job).
How am I giving away your citizenship?
The very citizenship you earned by being born here?
You and most of us who were born here were just lucky (or unlucky depending on your views) to be born here...we didn’t earn anything.
How does your perceived right to have human rights lessen because someone else circumvented the laws in most cases to escape violence and poverty or both...or even just to find a better life for themselves and their family?
Illegal immigration has been demonized by racist politicians for so many decades now, and there really isn’t any data showing truly negative impacts - in fact, if we deported them all the US stands to take a huge hit to our economy.
And again...the DACA kids have proven themselves worthy to live here as Americans.
That is more than many native born folks can say.
We should have borders and we do have borders...what we don’t need is a taxpayer funded or military funded giant wall that is hardly the most effective way to deal with this issue.
Start enforcing the hiring practices and laws if you are so upset about them stealing our jobs - they are not the ones circumventing the hiring laws to save a few bucks...it is all about profits right?
You can hire whomever you like and not hire just as easily.
Here in the US we like to profit on those we can easily take advantage of, willing to work for less than what is law, those who cannot fight back, or have a voice for themselves or the group...this is not different.
Our priorities in the US are severely out of whack.
We care more about profits then we do about people...native or otherwise.
Racism works both ways...both sides are guilty and both sides do things that encourage the bad behavior of the other side.
Click to expand...
At this point I don't give a flying fuck about immigration. I got cancer to kill. I worked with a lot of illegals. It's illegal for me to fake my documents it's a felony. I understand what your saying. I've had long deep convos with these guys many of them I still talk too. Like Henry and his uncles and brothers. I get why they are here. What I don't get is why can't they fix their own government. Fight for your feedoms. Don't just run to a different country and leave those who cannot make the journey suffer. Those that are left behind suffer more. How many people who think like you ever think of adopting a family and actually send some money there way? I've done it and I live in a travel trailer. I'm basically homeless living a third world life in a first world country. My son now has cancer. And I donate. Americans don't need all the shit they think they need. We can live with a lot less. The problem as I see it is that we are selfish. And it's not our problem what happens to others. So if Mexico and Central America are having problems why do we decide that it's not our problem. Why not fight the problems where they actually exist? Why encourage people to just leave. Why not help them where the problem exists. You don't cure problems by running away. If the western way of living is so great why is everyone wanting to kill it. It seems like the western way is the world standard. Good or bad people want to live in the USA. They run here by the millions. It seems pretty unfair to me to say one group of immigrants can waltz right on in and get a job and without having to really do the work that the others has to do to gain citizenship. Being a citizen of the USA should be the goal. And why is it only Mexicans that get this privilege? So if Chinese people or Africans or any other types of humans want to live the American lifestyle why can't they just waltz into New York and do the same? How about Cubans. Why are only one group of humans being allowed this special treatment. Some of my Russian co workers waited 10 years to get in. My cousins wife is from the Ukraine it took her five years to get in even though they were married. She was not allowed to come here and live with him. So he would go there and live with her. I'm not racist. I don't care what you look like. I think it should be a level playing field. Not one that takes millions from one place and just hundreds from another. We have made what it means to be an American to be less than what it really is. Whe should be spreading freedom not just keeping it here. That is why we should absolutely be spreading freedoms to other people. There are just as many horrible things happening south of the border. The wars in the Middle East are the same south of the border. The terrorists just have different names south of our border. But they are the same they rule by terror. They impede freedoms through violence and physical threats to families. Just as gangs do here in our city's. Without the involvement of the citizens caring for our nations that we live in. We all fail world wide. We will all die. None of us will get out of this life alive. What about those who came before who died to give us the opportunity to be lazy as we are today. Why is it that they gave all and were not willing to do the same for the next generation? This is a human problem. Humans made the problem. Humans need to fix it. Freedom needs a safe space to grow. And if there is not a standards set up to live by. Then chaos will eventually come. And just like a cancer it will take over without treatment.
 
efromm said:
How many people who think like you ever think of adopting a family and actually send some money there way? I've done it and I live in a travel trailer. I'm basically homeless living a third world life in a first world country. My son now has cancer. And I donate. Americans don't need all the shit they think they need. We can live with a lot less. The problem as I see it is that we are selfish. And it's not our problem what happens to others. So if Mexico and Central America are having problems why do we decide that it's not our problem. Why not fight the problems where they actually exist? Why encourage people to just leave. Why not help them where the problem exists. You don't cure problems by running away. If the western way of living is so great why is everyone wanting to kill it. It seems like the western way is the world standard.
Click to expand...

How many people who think like me?
Ahem.
Don’t make assumptions please.

I really am truly sorry that your Son has cancer...I hope that it is treatable and the prognosis is good.
I don’t know what I would do if that were my own Son and a can only imagine the stresses.
Please let me know if there is any thing in any capacity that I can help you with?

You don’t have to prove how generous or how great of a person you are though to me or to anyone else while assuming that I or anyone else does less in their lives than you do.
You don’t know how I live my life, what I do with it, whom I do or don’t donate to with my money or my time.
I really don’t think that most of those countries that people are fleeing are being encouraged by their own governments to leave.
So why wouldn’t they stay and work on their own countries - because they have to live.
They have to find a way to feed themselves and their families and sometimes working for years of political change at home is just not feasible.
You are correct - you don’t cure problems by running away...and you also don’t cure them by sending them away or deporting them.
But if you are trying to protect your children by fleeing violence what parent wouldn’t at least consider it?
Especially when in some cases speaking up against it will get you killed even faster.
If you are so concerned with their countries then how could you even suggest sending them back to the front lines along with their children?
I’m not talking all out amnesty at all...far from it...I know all about how the immigration policies in the US work - I was married to a gal from Russia, who also had a two year old Son when we got married (we met years before that in college as she did a Semester abroad type deal), he is now 14 and taller than me and I’m 6.1’. ;)
So yeah...in a way, I did adopt someone...not only that but I have continued to treat him as my own flesh and blood after his mother and I divorced and I legally didn’t have any rights to him (save for guardianship)...I could have just ditched the kid - not my problem right?
That is kind of a silly argument - why not adopt a family?
Okay, give me the financial means and I would gladly do that.
Also...it took me less than a year to fill out the mounds of paperwork and then ship it back and forth halfway around the world...I don’t know why it would take 5 years for your cousin, but I know it does happen.
You’re right that we don’t need all the shit we think we need...who are you trying to convince?
You do not need to convince me.
I live very simply...save for food, I can’t think of the last time I bought something for myself for pleasure.
I have a fixed budget that I live on being disabled that is very tight - and yes, I also find time to donate.
You may not feel that it is your problem concerning the happenings of others, but I consider us all as humans...fuck patriotism and nationalism.
I did however still serve this country in the USCG (so I’ve got some pretty practical experience concerning our borders and the laws pertaining to it)
(more than Captain Bone-spurs can say) ;)
Unless we are willing to completely shut the gates to this country then what happens around the world does concern us as we move into a more global economy, marketplace, and society.
Yes...we have a huge amount of issues here at home that should be prioritized by those that live here and pay taxes to maintain such things.
Poison water in Flint...Puerto Rico is still in a sad state...school shootings are a weekly occurrence...toddler shootings as well.
We have a pathetic healthcare system, and the public in general is gouged at every turn by every person or entity that wants to...our infrastructure is just saaad.
Our tax dollars are not prioritized to jive with the majority of public opinion, nor do most of the taxes taken from the paychecks of the working class go to help them, but to line the pockets of those who do not need any extra monies or tax breaks.
Yet still corporate welfare and tax havens on private islands are more popular than ever...guess we’ll just keep cutting away the social safety net to balance the financial whims of the rich.
There are a lot of people who donate money and time to various causes they find worthy.
I’m glad you found something for yourself...I too have donated my time and money both now and in the past through various causes.

If you feel they are running away from their problems instead of facing them and that we should fix the issues where they lie....okay how?
Who is going to fund that?
Clearly most refugees don’t have the monetary means.
Nor do most have the physical means either...and most other countries like our own don’t give a shit unless there is some kind of profit to be made or people to fleece.
In that same situation I know a good portion of people would try to find a better place to live and raise a family.

efromm said:
If the western way of living is so great why is everyone wanting to kill it. It seems like the western way is the world standard. Good or bad people want to live in the USA. They run here by the millions. It seems pretty unfair to me to say one group of immigrants can waltz right on in and get a job and without having to really do the work that the others has to do to gain citizenship. Being a citizen of the USA should be the goal. And why is it only Mexicans that get this privilege? So if Chinese people or Africans or any other types of humans want to live the American lifestyle why can't they just waltz into New York and do the same? How about Cubans. Why are only one group of humans being allowed this special treatment. Some of my Russian co workers waited 10 years to get in. My cousins wife is from the Ukraine it took her five years to get in even though they were married. She was not allowed to come here and live with him. So he would go there and live with her. I'm not racist. I don't care what you look like. I think it should be a level playing field. Not one that takes millions from one place and just hundreds from another. We have made what it means to be an American to be less than what it really is. Whe should be spreading freedom not just keeping it here. That is why we should absolutely be spreading freedoms to other people. There are just as many horrible things happening south of the border. The wars in the Middle East are the same south of the border. The terrorists just have different names south of our border. But they are the same they rule by terror. They impede freedoms through violence and physical threats to families. Just as gangs do here in our city's. Without the involvement of the citizens caring for our nations that we live in. We all fail world wide. We will all die. None of us will get out of this life alive. What about those who came before who died to give us the opportunity to be lazy as we are today. Why is it that they gave all and were not willing to do the same for the next generation? This is a human problem. Humans made the problem. Humans need to fix it. Freedom needs a safe space to grow. And if there is not a standards set up to live by. Then chaos will eventually come. And just like a cancer it will take over without treatment.
Click to expand...

I don’t think they want to kill it at all.
I think they see it as an opportunity to improve their lives.
Imho, there are probably very few who consider the social and financial implications of their actions on the country they are coming to illegally.
The idea that the “western way” is best is some mighty fine brainwashing we are subjected to.

I’m not saying one nationality should get preferential treatment at all...what I am saying is - the illegal alien problem that exists here in the US is far more complex than just deporting people will fix.
And so it makes it all the more cruel imho.
Those from south of our border namely, because they are the largest impactor on society.
Here is a link outlining how ingrained they are and how it would impact us just to blindly deport folks without having a comprehensive plan...with the fact that they came here illegally not to be forgotten or allowed to supersede anyone else who did so legally.
http://www.mcall.com/business/getsm...rants-cost-the-us-economy-20170222-story.html
(I’ll supply others if you like)
I agree the playing field should be level but it isn’t...and that is our own fault for hiring and supporting illegal immigrants for so many decades in this country because it was beneficial to the pocketbooks of certain individuals and still is!
Yes...you’re again right...it’s about being selfish...more specifically - greedy.

I do however disagree that we should be spreading “freedom” around the globe.
Just as we brought “freedom” and “democracy” to the Middle East?
This is the point of view that any way other than our way is wrong.
I don’t buy it.

I also don’t buy the fear mongering that we are going to all die by terrorism and terrorists, and/or we will be worse off generationally in an ever downward spiral.
We will all die...no one will survive - yeah...probably more likely from climate change and the depletion of our resources than immigrants or terrorists.

Just as we once had the Great Depression...laws were passed and amended, because of that, the ship was righted...for a long time people benefited.
Yes, it was laziness...it was apathy...it was selfishness - I got mine, too bad.
Once college was affordable, as was healthcare, wages were good, people could afford a home...had pensions and retirements...we built a freeway and interstate system of highways and people prospered.
You really want to blame a group of people for the state of this country...don’t blame the illegal immigrants, blame the Baby Boomers.
The MOST selfish generation to come along in 200 years.
All those benefits and steps forward this country made after WWII were squandered, turned into profit-making schemes, or was repealed because it was more profitable.
Such as college - I got mine...too bad for the rest of you (even though you are our own children).
Pension plans - must be nice.
The ability to fuck around and do drugs for years as a hippie shit then able to turn around and get a single income job and afford to buy a new car and home...WTF?
Unions...what is that again?
Laws that protected Social Security from the government - gone.
Laws that said banks (the money of the people) and investment houses (gambling money) must be separate - gone.
(This is why people lost huge chunks of their retirements or 401K plans when Wall St. crashed...not only is the taxpayer STILL on the hook for another crash, but we are damn lucky that Bush Jr. wasn’t able to privatize SS as he was trying to do at the time - it would be dust now)
Healthcare is pathetic here..it wasn’t always so until money and profits were allowed to mix in just like our criminal justice system and for-profit private prisons.
Reagan torpedoed unions almost for good with his call concerning the air traffic controllers.
We let several generations now dig themselves into a lifetime of debt just to be educated.
Meanwhile wages have stagnated for 30 years while inflation runs rampant.
And the Boomers have the gall to call those who came after them “lazy” as if it wasn’t them who fucked it all up royally.
Thanks! :)
Yes...you all DID have it easier...crybabies.
Yes, I see immigration as a problem that needs a fix...but I don’t see it as a cancer that is destroying our freedom.
We will just have to disagree there.

Take care, hope all is well with your Son once again.
Let me know if I can do anything, even if it’s just translating test results into regular human-speak, don’t hesitate.
 
Last edited:
efromm said:
At this point I don't give a flying fuck about immigration. I got cancer to kill. I worked with a lot of illegals. It's illegal for me to fake my documents it's a felony. I understand what your saying. I've had long deep convos with these guys many of them I still talk too. Like Henry and his uncles and brothers. I get why they are here. What I don't get is why can't they fix their own government. Fight for your feedoms. Don't just run to a different country and leave those who cannot make the journey suffer. Those that are left behind suffer more. How many people who think like you ever think of adopting a family and actually send some money there way? I've done it and I live in a travel trailer. I'm basically homeless living a third world life in a first world country. My son now has cancer. And I donate. Americans don't need all the shit they think they need. We can live with a lot less. The problem as I see it is that we are selfish. And it's not our problem what happens to others. So if Mexico and Central America are having problems why do we decide that it's not our problem. Why not fight the problems where they actually exist? Why encourage people to just leave. Why not help them where the problem exists. You don't cure problems by running away. If the western way of living is so great why is everyone wanting to kill it. It seems like the western way is the world standard. Good or bad people want to live in the USA. They run here by the millions. It seems pretty unfair to me to say one group of immigrants can waltz right on in and get a job and without having to really do the work that the others has to do to gain citizenship. Being a citizen of the USA should be the goal. And why is it only Mexicans that get this privilege? So if Chinese people or Africans or any other types of humans want to live the American lifestyle why can't they just waltz into New York and do the same? How about Cubans. Why are only one group of humans being allowed this special treatment. Some of my Russian co workers waited 10 years to get in. My cousins wife is from the Ukraine it took her five years to get in even though they were married. She was not allowed to come here and live with him. So he would go there and live with her. I'm not racist. I don't care what you look like. I think it should be a level playing field. Not one that takes millions from one place and just hundreds from another. We have made what it means to be an American to be less than what it really is. Whe should be spreading freedom not just keeping it here. That is why we should absolutely be spreading freedoms to other people. There are just as many horrible things happening south of the border. The wars in the Middle East are the same south of the border. The terrorists just have different names south of our border. But they are the same they rule by terror. They impede freedoms through violence and physical threats to families. Just as gangs do here in our city's. Without the involvement of the citizens caring for our nations that we live in. We all fail world wide. We will all die. None of us will get out of this life alive. What about those who came before who died to give us the opportunity to be lazy as we are today. Why is it that they gave all and were not willing to do the same for the next generation? This is a human problem. Humans made the problem. Humans need to fix it. Freedom needs a safe space to grow. And if there is not a standards set up to live by. Then chaos will eventually come. And just like a cancer it will take over without treatment.
Click to expand...

 
Skarekrow said:
How many people who think like me?
Ahem.
Don’t make assumptions please.

I really am truly sorry that your Son has cancer...I hope that it is treatable and the prognosis is good.
I don’t know what I would do if that were my own Son and a can only imagine the stresses.
Please let me know if there is any thing in any capacity that I can help you with?

You don’t have to prove how generous or how great of a person you are though to me or to anyone else while assuming that I or anyone else does less in their lives than you do.
You don’t know how I live my life, what I do with it, whom I do or don’t donate to with my money or my time.
I really don’t think that most of those countries that people are fleeing are being encouraged by their own governments to leave.
So why wouldn’t they stay and work on their own countries - because they have to live.
They have to find a way to feed themselves and their families and sometimes working for years of political change at home is just not feasible.
You are correct - you don’t cure problems by running away...and you also don’t cure them by sending them away or deporting them.
But if you are trying to protect your children by fleeing violence what parent wouldn’t at least consider it?
Especially when in some cases speaking up against it will get you killed even faster.
If you are so concerned with their countries then how could you even suggest sending them back to the front lines along with their children?
I’m not talking all out amnesty at all...far from it...I know all about how the immigration policies in the US work - I was married to a gal from Russia, who also had a two year old Son when we got married (we met years before that in college as she did a Semester abroad type deal), he is now 14 and taller than me and I’m 6.1’. ;)
So yeah...in a way, I did adopt someone...not only that but I have continued to treat him as my own flesh and blood after his mother and I divorced and I legally didn’t have any rights to him (save for guardianship)...I could have just ditched the kid - not my problem right?
That is kind of a silly argument - why not adopt a family?
Okay, give me the financial means and I would gladly do that.
Also...it took me less than a year to fill out the mounds of paperwork and then ship it back and forth halfway around the world...I don’t know why it would take 5 years for your cousin, but I know it does happen.
You’re right that we don’t need all the shit we think we need...who are you trying to convince?
You do not need to convince me.
I live very simply...save for food, I can’t think of the last time I bought something for myself for pleasure.
I have a fixed budget that I live on being disabled that is very tight - and yes, I also find time to donate.
You may not feel that it is your problem concerning the happenings of others, but I consider us all as humans...fuck patriotism and nationalism.
I did however still serve this country in the USCG (so I’ve got some pretty practical experience concerning our borders and the laws pertaining to it)
(more than Captain Bone-spurs can say) ;)
Unless we are willing to completely shut the gates to this country then what happens around the world does concern us as we move into a more global economy, marketplace, and society.
Yes...we have a huge amount of issues here at home that should be prioritized by those that live here and pay taxes to maintain such things.
Poison water in Flint...Puerto Rico is still in a sad state...school shootings are a weekly occurrence...toddler shootings as well.
We have a pathetic healthcare system, and the public in general is gouged at every turn by every person or entity that wants to...our infrastructure is just saaad.
Our tax dollars are not prioritized to jive with the majority of public opinion, nor do most of the taxes taken from the paychecks of the working class go to help them, but to line the pockets of those who do not need any extra monies or tax breaks.
Yet still corporate welfare and tax havens on private islands are more popular than ever...guess we’ll just keep cutting away the social safety net to balance the financial whims of the rich.
There are a lot of people who donate money and time to various causes they find worthy.
I’m glad you found something for yourself...I too have donated my time and money both now and in the past through various causes.

If you feel they are running away from their problems instead of facing them and that we should fix the issues where they lie....okay how?
Who is going to fund that?
Clearly most refugees don’t have the monetary means.
Nor do most have the physical means either...and most other countries like our own don’t give a shit unless there is some kind of profit to be made or people to fleece.
In that same situation I know a good portion of people would try to find a better place to live and raise a family.



I don’t think they want to kill it at all.
I think they see it as an opportunity to improve their lives.
Imho, there are probably very few who consider the social and financial implications of their actions on the country they are coming to illegally.
The idea that the “western way” is best is some mighty fine brainwashing we are subjected to.

I’m not saying one nationality should get preferential treatment at all...what I am saying is - the illegal alien problem that exists here in the US is far more complex than just deporting people will fix.
And so it makes it all the more cruel imho.
Those from south of our border namely, because they are the largest impactor on society.
Here is a link outlining how ingrained they are and how it would impact us just to blindly deport folks without having a comprehensive plan...with the fact that they came here illegally not to be forgotten or allowed to supersede anyone else who did so legally.
http://www.mcall.com/business/getsm...rants-cost-the-us-economy-20170222-story.html
(I’ll supply others if you like)
I agree the playing field should be level but it isn’t...and that is our own fault for hiring and supporting illegal immigrants for so many decades in this country because it was beneficial to the pocketbooks of certain individuals and still is!
Yes...you’re again right...it’s about being selfish...more specifically - greedy.

I do however disagree that we should be spreading “freedom” around the globe.
Just as we brought “freedom” and “democracy” to the Middle East?
This is the point of view that any way other than our way is wrong.
I don’t buy it.

I also don’t buy the fear mongering that we are going to all die by terrorism and terrorists, and/or we will be worse off generationally in an ever downward spiral.
We will all die...no one will survive - yeah...probably more likely from climate change and the depletion of our resources than immigrants or terrorists.

Just as we once had the Great Depression...laws were passed and amended, because of that, the ship was righted...for a long time people benefited.
Yes, it was laziness...it was apathy...it was selfishness - I got mine, too bad.
Once college was affordable, as was healthcare, wages were good, people could afford a home...had pensions and retirements...we built a freeway and interstate system of highways and people prospered.
You really want to blame a group of people for the state of this country...don’t blame the illegal immigrants, blame the Baby Boomers.
The MOST selfish generation to come along in 200 years.
All those benefits and steps forward this country made after WWII were squandered, turned into profit-making schemes, or was repealed because it was more profitable.
Such as college - I got mine...too bad for the rest of you (even though you are our own children).
Pension plans - must be nice.
The ability to fuck around and do drugs for years as a hippie shit then able to turn around and get a single income job and afford to buy a new car and home...WTF?
Unions...what is that again?
Laws that protected Social Security from the government - gone.
Laws that said banks (the money of the people) and investment houses (gambling money) must be separate - gone.
(This is why people lost huge chunks of their retirements or 401K plans when Wall St. crashed...not only is the taxpayer STILL on the hook for another crash, but we are damn lucky that Bush Jr. wasn’t able to privatize SS as he was trying to do at the time - it would be dust now)
Healthcare is pathetic here..it wasn’t always so until money and profits were allowed to mix in just like our criminal justice system and for-profit private prisons.
Reagan torpedoed unions almost for good with his call concerning the air traffic controllers.
We let several generations now dig themselves into a lifetime of debt just to be educated.
Meanwhile wages have stagnated for 30 years while inflation runs rampant.
And the Boomers have the gall to call those who came after them “lazy” as if it wasn’t them who fucked it all up royally.
Thanks! :)
Yes...you all DID have it easier...crybabies.
Yes, I see immigration as a problem that needs a fix...but I don’t see it as a cancer that is destroying our freedom.
We will just have to disagree there.

Take care, hope all is well with your Son once again.
Let me know if I can do anything, even if it’s just translating test results into regular human-speak, don’t hesitate.
Click to expand...
I was not assuming you. It's why I hate message boards. If we were actually talking I could go deeper into this. I never said deport them. It's not possible. To catch them all. But as far as I can tell the only solution is to invade Mexico and Central America. Now would these illegals here fight for Mexico or fight against Mexico? That's a question I wonder. Should anyone be loyal to their home country. My examples were not aimed at you personally. I'm a child of the 70's and 80's. I've lived in poverty most my life. That's why the concept of white privilege escapes me. I didn't feel privileged living in a trailer park. Or when we had to use food stamps in a republican state. People like to hate someone. I think we agree a lot more than we disagree. The American public has a noose around her neck. And the two party system is choking her out. We gotta get rid of career politicians. Those that would use power for their gain. That is the American public's cross to bear. But we won't bear it. So we kick it down the road. I liked all the guys I worked with. Hell their wives made me lunches a lot. They actually love their families unlike Americans today. Their love is not superficial. It's not dependent of money or status. But is freely given. We have abandoned the cry of the 60's and glossed over the message. Reagan and the rest of the Bill the cigar poker Clinton and the two lying bushes. Disassembled the American manufacturing machine and handed over our jobs. And people just went with it. In the end I guess it don't matter. I don't like city's so no matter what happens I'll be heading away from city problems. I'd rather be living a simple life. Far from the worries of modern life. I'm not interested in status money or any worldly things. I have some because I have too. But I'd rather not. Anyhow I gotta go little E is needing fed and moved in his hospit bed.
 
I thought what you said sounded like the song so much I shared it. Lot of truths in it.
 
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