Transgender Children

I think that forcing them to be something they don't want like that will probably ruin their lives. The person might commit suicide because of it.

The link wont work, btw.
 
New link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/31/transgender-german-girl-f_n_1245407.html (update on story).

I think an eleven-year-old who has always identified as a female and never identified as a male has pretty much made up her mind - it doesn't sound as if she's been considering this for just a year, or even a few years, so I can see this as what she truly wants.

Alex is a pre-teen and she hasn't hit puberty yet, so she may yet change her mind...but she should continue to identify as how she feels. It can be traumatic for someone who has always identified as one sex to suddenly go through puberty as another sex, but if she changes her mind that's not something you can return from.

In her case I think the problem is they put too MUCH emphasis on gender because puberty is now suddenly a scary thing...it would've been better if she'd had no gender restrictions and enjoyed who she was as a person regardless of what she played with or who she played with, but that's not the world, and you can't stay hidden. I honestly don't think there's a best answer for this child. I do feel it would be best that she waits until she's 18 and then she can elect to have gender reassignment surgery but she does not need to be institutionalized for her current beliefs. Hormones are funny things. The wrong amount can mess us up, big time, and we could actually be in the "wrong bodies" for our hormones. Intersex children go through this turmoiil early on as well - is there really that much of a difference between the two?

My personal opinion: I think the mother has the right idea and the father needs to back off, but I don't think the child should have to worry about puberty. I think she should be told that she'll be going through it, but it doesn't mean she can't change who she is in the near future.
 
What I don't understand is if these people perceive gender to be a mental thing and not a physical one why is there a need to surgically change their bodies? I mean surely this person could wear a dress and play with dolls and identify as a female without undergoing major cosmetic surgery.
 
Sali said:
What I don't understand is if these people perceive gender to be a mental thing and not a physical one why is there a need to surgically change their bodies? I mean surely this person could wear a dress and play with dolls and identify as a female without undergoing major cosmetic surgery.
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I think it has a lot to do with public pressure. We judge based on looks - that's just the kind of society we are. If we see a bearded man wearing a dress, it's a fetish - or a comedy skit. It's never taken seriously. Women, I think, have it easier; at least they can wear suits. Some can get away with tuxedos and still be okay. Not everyone is comfortable enough with their sexuality to accept the appearance of a man in a dress, even if that man identifies as a woman. So they want to have female bodies so they don't feel out of place - and I can understand their personal choice. Especially if they feel they are a different gender; then they'd prefer to look like who they feel inside.
 
Sorry but hormone treatments at 11 to stop puberty? That's fucking outrageous.

He has a right to decide his own interests but shouldn't in any way be allowed to permanently scar his body 'till he's at least old enough to be able to pay for it himself. I don't even agree with ear piercings 'till you're at least a teenager.
 
This is a somewhat difficult question, because it will be damaging if she changes her mind and if she doesn't it will be damaging for her to go through puberty in the body of the 'wrong' sex. I'm all for the rights of trans-gender people, but eleven seems a bit young for someone to make such a huge decision. If it were my child, I would need to talk to her for a long time, and find out why she wants to take hormone treatment. In the end, I feel that if it seemed she was sure of it, I ought to allow her, but I wouldn't be capable of dealing with the guilt if it was the wrong decision.

:m187:

Being a parent sounds so complicated!!!!
 
acd said:
I don't understand transgenderism. Why does having preferences deemed by society to be either masculine or feminine make people want to change themselves, physically?
Why can't you be a little boy who likes pink and unicorns and still be a little boy? I think this is sad.
Parents should teach their children to accept and feel comfortable in their bodies...
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It
 
Kira said:
It’s not those preferences that make transgendered people want to change their body, it’s their body that makes transgendered people want to change their body. As simple as that. Newest scientific studies provide enough evidence that transgendered people have a brain like the opposite sex. Just imagine you would wake up tomorrow with the body of the other sex. Do you really think you could handle or even enjoy this body for the rest of your live?
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Yeah I think I could.
 
Kira said:
Naive. And you couldn’t, noone can, that’s why transsexualism isn’t "treatable".
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LOL "naive."

Besides, if I had to wake up tomorrow as a man, it would obviously take some adjusting since I have been socialized as a woman..
Being born as one sex and waking up as another is not a good comparison.

Enlighten me on the differences of the male/female brain then. Because I'm coming at this from a gender construct socialization thing.
I am not interested in "treating" transexuals or curing them. If that is what someone chooses and is happy with, then that's up to them (If they are an adult, that is. I don't think a child is equipped to make that sort of decision.)
It doesn't affect me personally, I just think it's misguided. But I'm willing to acknowledge that I may misunderstand things. Depends on the evidence.
 
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acd said:
I'm coming at this from a gender construct socialization thing.
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I know that you are. INFJ here, forgot that? :)

Sad thing for you "gender is socially constructed" dogmatists is that transsexuals and all surrounding scientific studies prove you wrong :)

Gender is innate. Science proves this.
 
Kira said:
I know that you are. INFJ here, forgot that? :)

Sad thing for you "gender is socially constructed" dogmatists is that transsexuals and all surrounding scientific studies prove you wrong :)

Gender is innate. Science proves this.
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Then why not post links to your sources of info?! Or at least, I don't know... actually have a discussion about the evidence..Throwing the phrase 'scientific studies' around means nothing if you can't actually talk about it.

You're really not helping anyone out here pointing out that I'm wrong because it has been proven...without even bothering to show your evidence. Why should I take anything you say seriously? It is clear by your condescending tone that you are attempting to bully me into submission.. But how about you post some actual info?

Are there articles? Studies? I'm interested in reading them, and I'm sure others are too.
 
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Ugh, I had to stumble on this topic while I'm out :s
Odyne said:
How do you, her mother, her father and herself know yet what she wants?
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There are lots of reasons, but there's always an alternate explanation. In the end: You just know. I've never heard of someone who has been as certain as Alexandra here and changed their mind. Ever. Actually, very few people who consider transition seem to change their mind. Those who do, it's generally comorbid with other psychoses.

Sali said:
What I don't understand is if these people perceive gender to be a mental thing and not a physical one why is there a need to surgically change their bodies? I mean surely this person could wear a dress and play with dolls and identify as a female without undergoing major cosmetic surgery.
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I hoped that for a long time. I was in the exact opposite situation : my family and friends were really supportive regardless of how I identified and never tried to force me to do anything, although I can't say the same for my teachers and peers. So there was some social pressure but it's not like I was being pressured into conforming to some gender role that I didn't fit. But there's something inalienable that I can't shake. It's too hard to explain to someone who hasn't experienced it. It's like being in an accident and seeing your leg bent the wrong way. It's horrifying and looks, feels, seems 'wrong'.

acd said:
Then why not post links to your sources of info?! Or at least, I don't know... actually have a discussion about the evidence..Throwing the phrase 'scientific studies' around means nothing if you can't actually talk about it.

You're really not helping anyone out here pointing out that I'm wrong because it has been proven...without even bothering to show your evidence. Why should I take anything you say seriously? It is clear by your condescending tone that you are attempting to bully me into submission.. But how about you post some actual info?

Are there articles? Studies? I'm interested in reading them, and I'm sure others are too.
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Here is a recent one:
http://dbm.neuro.uni-jena.de/pdf-files/Luders-NI09-2.pdf
Here's one that's a little older:
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/22/3/1027.short
And one confirming the findings in the 70s about BSTc neuron count:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full
acd said:
Yeah I think I could.
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I thought so, too. Then I started having actual relationships and it all fell apart.
acd said:
I don't think a child is equipped to make that sort of decision.
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You will once you have a proper understanding of the issue. Right now, you're passing judgement on something you know less than nothing about. I understand your frustration at being fed very little actual evidence, but please understand my frustration at having to have this discussion with nearly everyone I meet.

Kira said:
Gender is innate. Science proves this.
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Nooot quite. All we know is:
-there are neurological correlates of desire to transition
-reparative therapy doesn't help (you can't 'get over' being trans)
-less than 2% of transsexual women regret their transition, and it is always because of either botched surgery or problems being accepted by family/community (I don't have stats on trans men, sorry) (source: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J056v05n04_05 )
-attempts to 'force' a non-transgendered child to transition have been equally ineffective

We do know that many aspects of gender expression (associating trucks, math, blue with boys and dolls, language, and pink with girls) are entirely culture-bound and kind of silly. What we don't know is where to draw the line.
 
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You believe that a child whose brain is not yet fully developed--who doesn't possess the capacity to think long-term let alone make long-term decisions is capable of making a sound decision to modify their body permanently? We don't let children drive or vote or get married because they aren't capable of doing those things responsibly, so how is it that a child can decide something like this? @Resonance
 
acd said:
You actually believe that a child whose brain is not yet fully developed--who doesn't possess the capacity to think long-term let alone make long-term decisions is capable of making the informed decision to modify their body? We don't let children drive or vote or get married because they aren't capable of doing those things responsibly, so how is it that a child can decide something like this? [MENTION=4302]Resonance[/MENTION]
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That's the only thing you can be bothered to follow up on?
 
acd said:
I was bothered enough to comment on it, yes. Because it's utterly absurd.
I'm still reading your articles.
Calm down.
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It's not absurd at all, but I understand your repulsion to the idea given how little people know about the phenomenon in general.

It would be less of an issue if there weren't real consequences to making them wait 'til they're 18 before even allowing them to start on androgen blockers.

I don't expect you to change your mind until you're more intimately familiar with why we do it. Once you understand, it'll be common sense.
 
Thanks for the info.
Though the first article said that it is unknown whether the brain appears a certain way as a result of transgender preferences or if the person's gender identity is a result of their brain make-up. So nothing is proven, but there is good reason to suspect that it could be physiological.

I suppose what I am grappling with is: What does being a woman feel like to someone born a man? I don't understand the experience, but I am curious about it. I'm curious about how much is biological and how much is environmental.

I understand that there are going to be consequences if a transgender child does not take measures to prevent sexually maturing. But what if you're wrong? I think it's medically irresponsible to allow a child to undergo hormone therapy knowing that a child's brain is not yet developed to make even less important choices than that. What about studies on transgender children? What is actually known of them?

Anything I read on transgender children talks about kids who enjoy toys and games of the opposite gender. They may have a male body but prefer girl things and visa versa.

That sounds awfully environmental. It sounds awfully psychological and not physiological. And I don't think there's anything wrong with not abiding by gender roles and constructs.
 
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