Transgender - Why is it even a thing?

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muir said:
I bring it up because reality does not exist as what vandyke wants it to exist as

So i am helping you to see how it actually exists

And how it actually exists is how i said it did, where powerful groups with agendas seek to shape laws to further their agendas

The sensible position on this is to understand this process in order to then not be duped by it

You should not get to define what 'hate' is criminalised because you may have certain biases for example you might be gay and therefore have a political bias towards gay people which then discriminates against straight people

Equally religious groups should not be able to write the law on their own or they could make being gay illegal and punishable with death by beheading

This is why we should maintain the objectivity that i am trying to foster here to avoid the prejudicial foibles of individuals or groups whether you or anyone else

So if you are LGBT take a deep breath, relax and allow clear thought to flourish...even when the subject matter...no ESPECIALLY when the subject matter is LGBT
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I'm gonna hold on this comment and say yes, indeed. When things like gender and sexuality turn into somesort of cause, as much as admirable as it may have been at some point, ironically nowadays and as i can see on this thread incites more disrespect from both sides and little thought.
I don't know that much about transgender, besides that they seemed to have suffered a lot in the cases i've seen and i wish em' well. But then, some movements sometimes seem to me like a big pile of lobbyist bullshit, but that's another subject. I won't develop any further, it's not really my bussiness and i don't really know that much about it, also i don't feel like taking any kind of sermon here by anyone, nor patronize.
 
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I sort of understand. There will, hopefully, come a time when treating it as if it were an issue will be the only thing making it an issue.

I didn't ever really feel that race was an issue. It was a naive ignorance on my part, but I had a friend who was one of the, intrinsically, best people I knew. It wasn't until I was exposed to people making it an issue that any thought related to thinking of skin color as related to a person's value made me think of people with different skin color as somehow being any different at all.

That definitely isn't to say that it isn't an issue that needs to be addressed, when they are treated as somehow being different, but there's something de(e || r)per there, when some people get defensive about it. The solution? I wish I knew. Oh, there's a big part of me that wants to go Malcolm X on it.
 
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Anywhere But Here said:
Gender reassigment surgery is cosmetic in nature, therefore, considered an "elective", which means it's 'optional' or 'chosen' by the person undergoing the procedure. Which could also fall under 'not necessary'. As I said before, if someone feels that they need this surgery and it is completely necessary, then by all means, do it! But do not do it on my dime. I see it as a poor use of tax dollars. Hell, if the goverment is going to use The Peoples hard earned money to pay for someone elses happiness, then maybe they should throw in breast implants for all of the flat-chested tax paying women out there! They are tired of being mistaken for boys! They deserve a chance at happiness too, right?

Again, I have no problem with it unless I have to pay for it. If I'm paying, then I should have a say. And I say "no".
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its so bizarre that you think that something so fundamentally life altering, that changes the functioning and structure of a body in such a major way, and has such ramifications on a persons core identity aspects and the way that they participate in and are perceived by their culture and society, can meaningfully be termed "cosmetic". for some reason, you are not thinking clearly.
 
once again, as we have been so many many many times before, we are benevolently permitted to be reminded that muir has achieved a very special access to "reality" from which the rest of us are inexplicably exempt.
 
invisible said:
its so bizarre that you think that something so fundamentally life altering, that changes the functioning and structure of a body in such a major way, and has such ramifications on a persons core identity aspects and the way that they participate in and are perceived by their culture and society, can meaningfully be termed "cosmetic". for some reason, you are not thinking clearly.
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The thing is, that while everyone has a right to be respected and to pursue happiness, it's not just a matter of magically getting the assets out of nowhere to achieve those things, no matter how worthy the cause may be. Love and acceptance are free and unlimited assets. Money and resources are not, they are earned with hard work, and if it's not a person's personal choice to achieve what they want and do as they choose with what they've rightfully earned, then it becomes a slippery slope for everyone. Life is hard for everyone and there are shortcuts for no one. Charity is a noble value but what makes it noble is its personally decisive nature.
 
sprinkles said:
Everyone must be allowed to take issue regardless, because if we start picking 'real issues' it won't be long before something truly serious comes up and it gets ignored because everyone automatically says "It's just those people complaining again."

Writing off an entire section of society as habitual complainers does not bode well for critical thinking when problems arise. In fact this could be used as a tactic by lobbyists and anyone with an agenda to discredit their opposition. That is not something that we can have happen.
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My intended point was that, sometimes, defensive people are created in castigating innocent people, and that there will come a time when that is the only applicable problem. That ought to be considered when visualizing the end-game. Maybe I'm getting ahead of the solution, hopefully not.

Edit: I hate having to use proper grammar to help some people understand. Lazysauce.

/preaching to choir
 
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Y0u said:
My intended point was that, sometimes, defensive people are created in castigating innocent people.
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One must sacrifice their bitter emotions from the past as much as they can and allow themselves to consider the points of view of others. Moving forward comes down to the ability and willpower to strive for forgiveness; this burden falls upon each and every individual as an individual. You don't have to do it alone though.
 
sprinkles said:
It's not only that. The way people treat each other turns society into a clusterfuck in general which is why we need to take out the personal opinions and anecdotal experiences and straight up arbitrate it. Because people need to be protected - from themselves.
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I would hate if it were true, but maybe some people are born with biases. There's a very interesting physics problem. *poke* *Stargate: Universe moment* Thank you to the firsts who made it for not minding, or perhaps in the nearly worse case scenario, we can be. To me, now, the evidence seems to point to us not being them.
 
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@Y0u

For the reasons you mentioned, this is why in my opinion humanity's only viable option is to continue to develop its ability to be warm and familial to one another, both inside and outside of the family unit. It's a struggle for us all. On the bright side, humanity's understanding of acceptable ethical behavior is slowly improving. Unless you want to get into some effed up world control stuff, we can't really "plan" for that though. Only try to be our best and kindest day by day, according to what we feel is kind, getting out of our comfort zones and allowing ourselves to move away from past ignorance. By doing this and forgiving ourselves and others, in this way, and only in this way, can we break the cycle.
 
sprinkles said:
@slant
I'm not sure why I got thumbs down when what I said is entirely true?

You know, there are some people think they shouldn't have to pay taxes at all, but their saying "no" is pretty irrelevant especially if they get caught. Just saying that a "no" means hardly anything in practical terms.

Even toddlers say "NO!" to their parents some times. And then they get a timeout. For somebody to make their entire argument hinge on "no" comes across like they have some single handed authority to stop everything with a word because they're just that important. This isn't the case.
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obviously because i dislike what you said and disagree
 
sprinkles said:
Since you chose not to use your words like a normal human being, I really don't give a fuck.
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Jesus fucking christ...passive aggressive much???


jesusfuckingchrist.webppassive aggressive.webp

(the images above if you click on them depict that i had 25 new notifcations. when i clicked on them, they were all negative reps from sprinkles on my last 25 posts)
 
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niffer said:
@Y0u

For the reasons you mentioned, this is why in my opinion humanity's only viable option is to continue to develop its ability to be warm and familial to one another, both inside and outside of the family unit. It's a struggle for us all. On the bright side, humanity's understanding of acceptable ethical behavior is slowly improving. Unless you want to get into some effed up world control stuff, we can't really "plan" for that though. Only try to be our best and kindest day by day, according to what we feel is kind, getting out of our comfort zones and allowing ourselves to move away from past ignorance. By doing this and forgiving ourselves and others, in this way, and only in this way, can we break the cycle.
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Thank you, this is the biggest part of what I was trying to say.
 
Anywhere But Here said:
Gender reassigment surgery is cosmetic in nature, therefore, considered an "elective", which means it's 'optional' or 'chosen' by the person undergoing the procedure. Which could also fall under 'not necessary'. As I said before, if someone feels that they need this surgery and it is completely necessary, then by all means, do it! But do not do it on my dime. I see it as a poor use of tax dollars. Hell, if the goverment is going to use The Peoples hard earned money to pay for someone elses happiness, then maybe they should throw in breast implants for all of the flat-chested tax paying women out there! They are tired of being mistaken for boys! They deserve a chance at happiness too, right?

Again, I have no problem with it unless I have to pay for it. If I'm paying, then I should have a say. And I say "no".
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sprinkles said:
The effect of saying "no" all depends on who says "yes". If enough people/the right people say "yes" then you'll be saying "no" to the IRS, and they don't appreciate that.
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invisible said:
its so bizarre that you think that something so fundamentally life altering, that changes the functioning and structure of a body in such a major way, and has such ramifications on a persons core identity aspects and the way that they participate in and are perceived by their culture and society, can meaningfully be termed "cosmetic". for some reason, you are not thinking clearly.
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niffer said:
The thing is, that while everyone has a right to be respected and to pursue happiness, it's not just a matter of magically getting the assets out of nowhere to achieve those things, no matter how worthy the cause may be. Love and acceptance are free and unlimited assets. Money and resources are not, they are earned with hard work, and if it's not a person's personal choice to achieve what they want and do as they choose with what they've rightfully earned, then it becomes a slippery slope for everyone. Life is hard for everyone and there are shortcuts for no one. Charity is a noble value but what makes it noble is its personally decisive nature.
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Sex reassignment surgery (SRS) and related surgeries are not cosmetic in nature. The WPATH Standards of Care views SRS as medically necessary. I can explain why. In the case of trans women undergoing hormone replacement therapy (which is one of the prerequisites for SRS, in addition to a year of real-life experience living full-time as the opposite gender and 2-3 letters from doctorate level psychologists and psychiatrists), the presence of the dangly bits is detrimental because it requires taking anti-androgens and higher doses of estrogen, which is actually dangerous as people age. After genital surgery, trans women are able to discontinue anti-androgens and reduce their estrogen dosage because they will no longer need to worry about counteracting testosterone. So at the very least, full orchiectomy should be covered, and it would need to be inguinal orchiectomy or another method that allows for people to get SRS in the future. In inguinal orchiectomy, the testicles are drawn out through the inguinal canal as opposed to cutting the scrotum open. If trans women are forced to take anti-androgens and higher doses of estrogen into their old age, bad side effects can result, including an increased risk of deep vein thrombrosis, which will kill the person when it comes undone and travels to the brain. Liver and kidney function are also in jeopardy.

The story is similar for trans men. After starting testosterone, most seem to have their uterus's removed because, from what I understand, anti-estrogen and anti-progesterone drugs suck (not sure if they're even used), and I'm sure that having to take higher doses of testosterone is also dangerous.

As for the full vaginoplasty, labiaplasty, or phalloplasty, a lot of people have dysphoria until they're able to correct these issues. It is not that uncommon for trans women to end up hospitalized for trying to castrate themselves. I've actually spoken to people who have tried to do so or really want to do so. This trans man killed himself after he was not able to get a penis through phalloplasty. It is also important for trans men to have access to double-mastectomies because having boobs causes them a great deal of dysphoria, and they wear binders which are not ideal long term. Improperly done binding is dangerous, so trans men hurt themselves through that as well.

In many places, being able to have SRS is tied to documentation change and other legal rights. IMO, its not fair for the state to require it for documentation change but then not pay for it because it is viewed as cosmetic only.

Finally, it wouldn't actually cost that much to pay for the surgeries. It is not like there are that many transsexuals running around, so denying people who need things this so desperately out of ignorance of their importance is really awful.

Edit: I'd like to add, if you read the Telegraph article about the Belgian man, that having SRS doesn't change you from a woman to a man or vice versa. You're a woman or man regardless of what is in your pants and even if the person never has surgery, but obviously, some people would like it to match.
 
sprinkles said:
Also on the note of thumbs and reps - which I should not have raged over but I'm sick to death of them:

This instant clicking to make vague opinions known is actually part of what is ruining society and making people less human, in my opinion. This instant impersonal gratification of one's private thoughts over others without the target person even understanding why is starting to become a serious problem.

This is starting to isolate people more and more so where they don't have to talk to each other, and seem to even be forgetting how to do so or why it is important. This instant rep system that is so prevalent in many communities is basically saying "you're not worth my time but I need you to know that I approve/disapprove anyway"

Our society is starting to develop such incredibly closed and selfish thinking because people are so used to filling themselves up with their own opinions and they hear less and less of other's views, because people are not properly speaking to each other as much as they used to.

Between thumbs, monologues, recycled sound bites, and memes, it's getting to a point where people actually are just talking to themselves, because they want their ideas to be known without hearing anyone else's. And these silent agreements/disagreements give too many opportunities for this to happen.

Discussion and interpersonal contact is important. Using your words is also very important. Nobody actually knows what a thumbs up or down really means. You think it's good when somebody gives you a thumbs up without saying anything? How do you know they understood you correctly? How do you know that they're not just being random? How do you know there is any value to it at all? Well there isn't really any value other than an empty inflation of your self worth and theirs.

The inability and unwillingness to communicate in a two way manner is killing us.
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sprinkles, your rant is wildly off topic, and your expectations on the emotional resources of others are way outside of the sphere of your personal responsibility. but since it is such a big deal to you, i will make sure not to disrespect you by indicating my general support of something you said in so vague or casual a manner ever again, for crying out loud.
 
invisible said:
sprinkles, your rant is wildly off topic, and your expectations on the emotional resources of others are way outside of the sphere of your personal responsibility. but since it is such a big deal to you, i will make sure not to disrespect you by indicating my general support of something you said in so vague or casual a manner ever again, for crying out loud.
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You're right, and thanks.
 
niffer said:
The thing is, that while everyone has a right to be respected and to pursue happiness, it's not just a matter of magically getting the assets out of nowhere to achieve those things, no matter how worthy the cause may be. Love and acceptance are free and unlimited assets. Money and resources are not, they are earned with hard work, and if it's not a person's personal choice to achieve what they want and do as they choose with what they've rightfully earned, then it becomes a slippery slope for everyone. Life is hard for everyone and there are shortcuts for no one. Charity is a noble value but what makes it noble is its personally decisive nature.
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the whole medical social safety net topic is very interesting to think about, but in this case i was just pointing out that the reasons given for the statement that was made did not make sense.
 
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