Transgender - Why is it even a thing?

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I think sex reassignment surgery is fine. I know a couple people personally who went through it. One being born as female who wanted to be male and another born male who wanted to be female. Both people seem infinitely happier after modifying their hormonal profile and going through with surgeries. The MTF had this done many, many years ago and says that it is the best thing she'd ever done for herself, though there is some upkeep to keep the vagina functioning. The FTM is someone I have known since we were teens and had a very difficult emotional battle. We went to a Catholic high school and lived in small towns and she only discovered what was really going on with her after she moved to a city that had more people who were going through the same thing.

Both had to pay for the surgeries on their own... They fund raised for their cause and some people donated. I don't see a problem with that, though I can understand other points of view where people do not feel financially responsible for other people's surgeries.
 
Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution
A drastic physical change doesn't address underlying psycho-social troubles.

By PAUL MCHUGH
June 12, 2014

The government and media alliance advancing the transgender cause has gone into overdrive in recent weeks. On May 30, a U.S. Department of Health and Human Services review board ruled that Medicare can pay for the "reassignment" surgery sought by the transgendered—those who say that they don't identify with their biological sex. Earlier last month Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said that he was "open" to lifting a ban on transgender individuals serving in the military. Time magazine, seeing the trend, ran a cover story for its June 9 issue called "The Transgender Tipping Point: America's next civil rights frontier."

Yet policy makers and the media are doing no favors either to the public or the transgendered by treating their confusions as a right in need of defending rather than as a mental disorder that deserves understanding, treatment and prevention. This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken—it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.

The transgendered suffer a disorder of "assumption" like those in other disorders familiar to psychiatrists. With the transgendered, the disordered assumption is that the individual differs from what seems given in nature—namely one's maleness or femaleness. Other kinds of disordered assumptions are held by those who suffer from anorexia and bulimia nervosa, where the assumption that departs from physical reality is the belief by the dangerously thin that they are overweight.

With body dysmorphic disorder, an often socially crippling condition, the individual is consumed by the assumption "I'm ugly." These disorders occur in subjects who have come to believe that some of their psycho-social conflicts or problems will be resolved if they can change the way that they appear to others. Such ideas work like ruling passions in their subjects' minds and tend to be accompanied by a solipsistic argument.

For the transgendered, this argument holds that one's feeling of "gender" is a conscious, subjective sense that, being in one's mind, cannot be questioned by others. The individual often seeks not just society's tolerance of this "personal truth" but affirmation of it. Here rests the support for "transgender equality," the demands for government payment for medical and surgical treatments, and for access to all sex-based public roles and privileges.

With this argument, advocates for the transgendered have persuaded several states—including California, New Jersey and Massachusetts—to pass laws barring psychiatrists, even with parental permission, from striving to restore natural gender feelings to a transgender minor. That government can intrude into parents' rights to seek help in guiding their children indicates how powerful these advocates have become.

How to respond? Psychiatrists obviously must challenge the solipsistic concept that what is in the mind cannot be questioned. Disorders of consciousness, after all, represent psychiatry's domain; declaring them off-limits would eliminate the field. Many will recall how, in the 1990s, an accusation of parental sex abuse of children was deemed unquestionable by the solipsists of the "recovered memory" craze.

You won't hear it from those championing transgender equality, but controlled and follow-up studies reveal fundamental problems with this movement. When children who reported transgender feelings were tracked without medical or surgical treatment at both Vanderbilt University and London's Portman Clinic, 70%-80% of them spontaneously lost those feelings. Some 25% did have persisting feelings; what differentiates those individuals remains to be discerned.

We at Johns Hopkins University—which in the 1960s was the first American medical center to venture into "sex-reassignment surgery"—launched a study in the 1970s comparing the outcomes of transgendered people who had the surgery with the outcomes of those who did not. Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as "satisfied" by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn't have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a "satisfied" but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs.

It now appears that our long-ago decision was a wise one. A 2011 study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden produced the most illuminating results yet regarding the transgendered, evidence that should give advocates pause. The long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population. This disturbing result has as yet no explanation but probably reflects the growing sense of isolation reported by the aging transgendered after surgery. The high suicide rate certainly challenges the surgery prescription.

There are subgroups of the transgendered, and for none does "reassignment" seem apt. One group includes male prisoners like Pvt. Bradley Manning, the convicted national-security leaker who now wishes to be called Chelsea. Facing long sentences and the rigors of a men's prison, they have an obvious motive for wanting to change their sex and hence their prison. Given that they committed their crimes as males, they should be punished as such; after serving their time, they will be free to reconsider their gender.

Another subgroup consists of young men and women susceptible to suggestion from "everything is normal" sex education, amplified by Internet chat groups. These are the transgender subjects most like anorexia nervosa patients: They become persuaded that seeking a drastic physical change will banish their psycho-social problems. "Diversity" counselors in their schools, rather like cult leaders, may encourage these young people to distance themselves from their families and offer advice on rebutting arguments against having transgender surgery. Treatments here must begin with removing the young person from the suggestive environment and offering a counter-message in family therapy.

Then there is the subgroup of very young, often prepubescent children who notice distinct sex roles in the culture and, exploring how they fit in, begin imitating the opposite sex. Misguided doctors at medical centers including Boston's Children's Hospital have begun trying to treat this behavior by administering puberty-delaying hormones to render later sex-change surgeries less onerous—even though the drugs stunt the children's growth and risk causing sterility. Given that close to 80% of such children would abandon their confusion and grow naturally into adult life if untreated, these medical interventions come close to child abuse. A better way to help these children: with devoted parenting.

At the heart of the problem is confusion over the nature of the transgendered. "Sex change" is biologically impossible. People who undergo sex-reassignment surgery do not change from men to women or vice versa. Rather, they become feminized men or masculinized women. Claiming that this is civil-rights matter and encouraging surgical intervention is in reality to collaborate with and promote a mental disorder.

Dr. McHugh, former psychiatrist in chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital, is the author of "Try to Remember: Psychiatry's Clash Over Meaning, Memory, and Mind" (Dana Press, 2008).
 
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sprinkles said:
[MENTION=528]slant[/MENTION]

Also here I am trying to have reasoned arguments and you think you can just click a button? I didn't even thumb down Lerxst. I can't fucking stand people who do that. Being so lazy that you can't use words is for fucking selfies, music videos and miscellaneous bullshit. It pisses me right the fuck off when people do it on things that matter.

If you're too fucking lazy to speak, then I don't care what you think, so pushing that button is just fapping yourself off pretty much for all I care.
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Are you upset?
 
sprinkles said:
Now?

Actually, no. But feel free to peck up any scraps you can find like the pathetic late coming scavenger you're being right now.
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You seem very upset.
 
Anywhere But Here said:
Transgender Surgery Isn't the Solution
A drastic physical change doesn't address underlying psycho-social troubles.

By PAUL MCHUGH
June 12, 2014

The government and media alliance advancing the transgender cause has gone into overdrive in recent weeks. On May 30, a U.S. Department of Health and Human Services review board ruled that Medicare can pay for the "reassignment" surgery sought by the transgendered—those who say that they don't identify with their biological sex. Earlier last month Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel said that he was "open" to lifting a ban on transgender individuals serving in the military. Time magazine, seeing the trend, ran a cover story for its June 9 issue called "The Transgender Tipping Point: America's next civil rights frontier."

Yet policy makers and the media are doing no favors either to the public or the transgendered by treating their confusions as a right in need of defending rather than as a mental disorder that deserves understanding, treatment and prevention. This intensely felt sense of being transgendered constitutes a mental disorder in two respects. The first is that the idea of sex misalignment is simply mistaken—it does not correspond with physical reality. The second is that it can lead to grim psychological outcomes.

The transgendered suffer a disorder of "assumption" like those in other disorders familiar to psychiatrists. With the transgendered, the disordered assumption is that the individual differs from what seems given in nature—namely one's maleness or femaleness. Other kinds of disordered assumptions are held by those who suffer from anorexia and bulimia nervosa, where the assumption that departs from physical reality is the belief by the dangerously thin that they are overweight.

With body dysmorphic disorder, an often socially crippling condition, the individual is consumed by the assumption "I'm ugly." These disorders occur in subjects who have come to believe that some of their psycho-social conflicts or problems will be resolved if they can change the way that they appear to others. Such ideas work like ruling passions in their subjects' minds and tend to be accompanied by a solipsistic argument.

For the transgendered, this argument holds that one's feeling of "gender" is a conscious, subjective sense that, being in one's mind, cannot be questioned by others. The individual often seeks not just society's tolerance of this "personal truth" but affirmation of it. Here rests the support for "transgender equality," the demands for government payment for medical and surgical treatments, and for access to all sex-based public roles and privileges.

With this argument, advocates for the transgendered have persuaded several states—including California, New Jersey and Massachusetts—to pass laws barring psychiatrists, even with parental permission, from striving to restore natural gender feelings to a transgender minor. That government can intrude into parents' rights to seek help in guiding their children indicates how powerful these advocates have become.

How to respond? Psychiatrists obviously must challenge the solipsistic concept that what is in the mind cannot be questioned. Disorders of consciousness, after all, represent psychiatry's domain; declaring them off-limits would eliminate the field. Many will recall how, in the 1990s, an accusation of parental sex abuse of children was deemed unquestionable by the solipsists of the "recovered memory" craze.

You won't hear it from those championing transgender equality, but controlled and follow-up studies reveal fundamental problems with this movement. When children who reported transgender feelings were tracked without medical or surgical treatment at both Vanderbilt University and London's Portman Clinic, 70%-80% of them spontaneously lost those feelings. Some 25% did have persisting feelings; what differentiates those individuals remains to be discerned.

We at Johns Hopkins University—which in the 1960s was the first American medical center to venture into "sex-reassignment surgery"—launched a study in the 1970s comparing the outcomes of transgendered people who had the surgery with the outcomes of those who did not. Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as "satisfied" by the results, but their subsequent psycho-social adjustments were no better than those who didn't have the surgery. And so at Hopkins we stopped doing sex-reassignment surgery, since producing a "satisfied" but still troubled patient seemed an inadequate reason for surgically amputating normal organs.

It now appears that our long-ago decision was a wise one. A 2011 study at the Karolinska Institute in Sweden produced the most illuminating results yet regarding the transgendered, evidence that should give advocates pause. The long-term study—up to 30 years—followed 324 people who had sex-reassignment surgery. The study revealed that beginning about 10 years after having the surgery, the transgendered began to experience increasing mental difficulties. Most shockingly, their suicide mortality rose almost 20-fold above the comparable nontransgender population. This disturbing result has as yet no explanation but probably reflects the growing sense of isolation reported by the aging transgendered after surgery. The high suicide rate certainly challenges the surgery prescription.

There are subgroups of the transgendered, and for none does "reassignment" seem apt. One group includes male prisoners like Pvt. Bradley Manning, the convicted national-security leaker who now wishes to be called Chelsea. Facing long sentences and the rigors of a men's prison, they have an obvious motive for wanting to change their sex and hence their prison. Given that they committed their crimes as males, they should be punished as such; after serving their time, they will be free to reconsider their gender.

Another subgroup consists of young men and women susceptible to suggestion from "everything is normal" sex education, amplified by Internet chat groups. These are the transgender subjects most like anorexia nervosa patients: They become persuaded that seeking a drastic physical change will banish their psycho-social problems. "Diversity" counselors in their schools, rather like cult leaders, may encourage these young people to distance themselves from their families and offer advice on rebutting arguments against having transgender surgery. Treatments here must begin with removing the young person from the suggestive environment and offering a counter-message in family therapy.

Then there is the subgroup of very young, often prepubescent children who notice distinct sex roles in the culture and, exploring how they fit in, begin imitating the opposite sex. Misguided doctors at medical centers including Boston's Children's Hospital have begun trying to treat this behavior by administering puberty-delaying hormones to render later sex-change surgeries less onerous—even though the drugs stunt the children's growth and risk causing sterility. Given that close to 80% of such children would abandon their confusion and grow naturally into adult life if untreated, these medical interventions come close to child abuse. A better way to help these children: with devoted parenting.

At the heart of the problem is confusion over the nature of the transgendered. "Sex change" is biologically impossible. People who undergo sex-reassignment surgery do not change from men to women or vice versa. Rather, they become feminized men or masculinized women. Claiming that this is civil-rights matter and encouraging surgical intervention is in reality to collaborate with and promote a mental disorder.

Dr. McHugh, former psychiatrist in chief at Johns Hopkins Hospital, is the author of "Try to Remember: Psychiatry's Clash Over Meaning, Memory, and Mind" (Dana Press, 2008).
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I've seen this article come up many times. Here is a rundown on him (and his conservative views): http://www.tsroadmap.com/info/paul-mchugh.html

And here is a quote from another forum where someone outlines the problem with the study better than I could:

Well, the first link looks like a conservative-bias site and the second link is clearly refuting everything he said.

what i don't understand it why they feel the need to do this?
​
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The answer is cognitive dissonance. They came to the table with the belief that transgender people are delusional. Maybe they have religious beliefs backing them up, maybe they subconsciously feel that transition is "icky". But in any case, they ignore evidence that supports trans people and only look at evidence that's on their side, so they don't have to rethink their position. All humans do this and it's not done out of malice; it's merely the way human brains work.
About the suicide study. Here's a link to the study, and take a look at this table from the study. 2.7 out of 1000 trans people had killed themselves, while 7.9 out of 1000 had attempted suicide. So that's about 10% that either attempted or successfully committed suicide. The attempted suicide rate for trans people is estimated at about 40%, or higher depending on the source. So while the post-transition suicide rate is higher compared to cis people, it is lower compared to the general trans population.
For some reason this is the one they ALWAYS bring up even though it's a piss poor example. It's comparing trans people to cis people. It doesn't compare the suicide rate of pre-transition trans people and post-transition, which is the only information that would actually be relevant. They are just hoping the audience won't understand what a proper control group is, and will just say "oh gosh that's a lot of suicide".
It also ignores other factors like lack of support. LGBT people with unsupportive family are at a higher risk of suicide.
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So basically, they found that the post sex reassignment surgery (SRS) suicide attempt rate of trans people back then was higher than that of the general population. However, they only compared the suicide rate of the post-operation trans people to that of the cisgendered population. They didn't compare the suicide rate of trans people who didn't have SRS to trans people who did have SRS, but the evidence we have now suggests that trans people who have SRS are far less likely to attempt suicide than trans people who do not have SRS. Access to the surgery saves lives. ​ The process one has to go through to get SRS is extensive, and very few people regret it while many cite it as giving them a dramatic increase in their quality of life.

The whole deal with Johns Hopkins and the misinterpretation of this study by this bigot is the excuse that insurance companies have used to deny trans healthcare for a long time. It does not actually prove that transition related healthcare is ineffective. Instead, what it shows is that there are issues that go beyond the physical transition itself. We know that lack of acceptance of family members is a huge factor in people attempting suicide.
 
There are many posts that are mysteriously missing in this thread...
 
the said:
There are many posts that are mysteriously missing in this thread...
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One can delete posts but them quotes don't lie.
 
yam

When it comes down to it, altering your fully functional body, bio medically, is a radical step. It falls into two categories (in my opinion) the first being "cosmetic" and the second being "psychological repair".

I don't even like it when folks dye their hair, get tats or piercings, but that's me. I very much believe that we should be who we are, and take the time; make the effort to discover; understand what that means.

If you have a disfigurement it is difficult to attain acceptance in society at large and have healthy self esteem (sans true enlightenment) So I get it. For a trans-gender person who truly believes they are disfigured by nature, the motivation for surgical and chemical relief is real.

That said, your body is, by and large, who you are. Those of a severely religious nature will argue that the intangible and immortal soul is the true seat of the individual but that is not how I see it. We are flesh and blood, though we do not fully understand what that means.

BTW
hush said:
I am lying right now.
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the said:
There are many posts that are mysteriously missing in this thread...
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I was trying to do a good thing for a change. Unlike you.

You think I'm so stupid as to believe I can erase what happened? Well I guess that's to be expected, considering your idea of "cheering me up" is blatant antagonizing sarcasm.

Fuck doing good I guess. People don't want it. I mean look at you right now, not leaving things alone. You want this to happen. So I guess I'll deliver. This is what all of you seem to really want.
 
invisible said:
once again, as we have been so many many many times before, we are benevolently permitted to be reminded that muir has achieved a very special access to "reality" from which the rest of us are inexplicably exempt.
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boo!

***pours scorn on your comment***
 
sprinkles said:
I was trying to do a good thing for a change. Unlike you.

You think I'm so stupid as to believe I can erase what happened? Well I guess that's to be expected, considering your idea of "cheering me up" is blatant antagonizing sarcasm.

Fuck doing good I guess. People don't want it. I mean look at you right now, not leaving things alone. You want this to happen. So I guess I'll deliver. This is what all of you seem to really want.
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Regarding the rep you gave me: I knew you couldn't quit me.
 
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