True change requires spiritual transformation

[Satya]

@Satya something interesting i noticed--
what is truth in our mind-- what is truth in the external world.
someone has to observe said truth in the external world, huh? making it a truth in their mind. for an observation of truth to be made, an observer is needed. any truth in the 'external world' has to be observed, making it subjective.

That would be the point I was trying to make to FA. That is the notion of "absurdism". It is absurd for humans to try to find meaning in life since there is no way to observe outside of our own minds and distinguish between what is an external truth and what is a human truth. As such, we are limited to an existential pursuit in which we choose for ourselves what is meaningful and what is not.

 

[Kmal]

That would be the point I was trying to make to FA. That is the notion of "absurdism". It is absurd for humans to try to find meaning in life since there is no way to observe outside of our own minds and distinguish between what is an external truth and what is a human truth. As such, we are limited to an existential pursuit in which we choose for ourselves what is meaningful and what is not.

haha!! are we going in circles??

there is no external truth without a human truth-- so they are ONE in the same. that said, why would you try to speak for everyone when you say 'X is the meaning of life.' this is why a universal perspective does not make sense to me.

it's absurd to try to find a meaning in someone elses life, but not yours.

 

[Satya]

This is interesting in that the transformative systems I am familar with almost necessitate a movement beyond our own minds and our own egos. As vital and as central as our egos are to our humanity, there is something mysterious that is past them, and it is this experience that paves the way to truer tranformation.

I believe the Eastern concept of "mindfulness" comes into play in your perspective. Choosing to simply exist in reality, accepting it as it comes, instead of interpreting or evaluating it, in hopes of attaining an existence outside of awareness. It is a fascinating concept, and many people have dedicated their entire lives in hopes of ascending from human suffering and all the attachments and aversions that the ego has ascribed as meaningful, to an existence without meaning or ego. The noble paths of Buddhism are built on this notion and there are proven psychological benefits to the practice of mindfulness in centering and restructuring cognition.

 

[Satya]

haha!! are we going in circles??

there is no external truth without a human truth-- so they are ONE in the same. that said, why would you try to speak for everyone when you say 'X is the meaning of life.' this is why a universal perspective does not make sense to me.

it's absurd to try to find a meaning in someone elses life, but not yours.

Ah, you have fallen into the same dichotomous perspective as FA. You have simply accepted his first notion instead of his second notion.

You have made an assumption. Your assumption is there is no external truth outside of human truth. You argue that without a mind or an observer that there can be no truth. This can only be true if there is no God. If there is a God, then there is an omnipotent observer who has established what is and is not true. Such a God may exist and may have made external truth unknowable to humans or the only knowable external truth could be God.

As such, it can neither be determined that there is or is not external truths outside of human truth. That is my argument.

 

[randomsomeone]

it can neither be determined that there is or is not external truths outside of human truth. That is my argument.

I am curious...in the context of "spiritual awakening", what would such a thing look like or how would it be perceived given this approach.

 

[Satya]

I am curious...in the context of "spiritual awakening", what would such a thing look like or how would it be perceived given this approach.

I wonder myself, hence the thread. How do people distinguish between "spiritual" and psychological?

 

[VH]

I wonder myself, hence the thread. How do people distinguish between "spiritual" and psychological?

I believe that there is a distinction between the body, the mind, and the spirit.

The body provides us with instinctive urges, such as hormonal drives, the reptile brain, etc.
The mind provides us with thought and reason, such as cognition, logic, deduction.
The spirit provides us with life, such as the motivations that compel us and the will to be who we are.

There really isn't any scientific evidence for this approach, but it is an approach that has been accepted and understood by cultures around the world for thousands of years. This isn't a perspective that is isolated to one particular school of thought, religion, philosophy, etc. In fact, the philosophy of science is one of the few schools of thought that doesn't include some take on this perspective, however science is an excellent school of thought and therefore one of the most widely accepted.

We have come a long way with science over the years.

Science understands the body on an amazing level because humanity poured massive amounts of resources into understanding it. Understanding the body had the priority. Without the body, we cannot exist in this world.

Science is beginning to unlock the mysteries of the mind because humanity is beginning to shift its focus to the operations of the mind. As understanding of the body becomes stable, it is now time to focus on the mind, that which operates the body.

Just as the more deeply science understood the body the more it unlocked understanding of the mind, the more deeply science understands the mind, the more science will unlock understanding of the spirit. However, just as we lacked the tools to properly measure the mind a hundred years ago, we currently lack the tools to measure the spirit.

That all said, it is possible to affect change in the body by working out, dieting, practicing a physical skill. It is possible to affect change in the mind by gaining knowledge, challenging one's mental capacities, and practicing a mental skill. Therefore, it is possible to affect change in the spirit by engaging one's spirit, feeding it, and using it. How to do this depends on the individual's current spiritual state and spiritual intentions. Just as with the body, you have to tailor your efforts to your desired results.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Unfortunately, I don't fall within your dichotomy.

3. One that presupposes that it is humanly impossible to find true meaning in life since meaning is simply an illusion of the human ego.

The third approach, is the basis of existentialism. Meaning becomes real because humans choose to make it real, and therefore it becomes objective in our subjective world. We, in turn, choose meaning in our life, whether internal or external, and it becomes real to us as individuals because our egos make it real. Just like abstract concepts like "freedom" and "purity" are only real within human experience and are defined within human experience, concepts like "God" and "hope" are real to us because we choose to make them real.

As such, the basis of our ego, namely our thoughts, emotions, and perceptions, are the foundation by which we define meaning. The absurdity of such rejects both of your earlier notions. There is no way to declare there is any "objective" basis for or against spirituality since all human experience is inherently subjective. An objective basis for faith could or could not exist outside of human experience, but it is impossible to find it because we cannot step outside of human experience and so it is rather absurd to even try or to state one way or another that there is an objective basis.

As such, as far as theism is concerned, the most logical approach is agnosticism since there is no discernible way to prove or disprove the existence of God. God could or could not exist, and there is no way for us to determine if God is simply an abstract creation of our own egos or an external force. God would be just as real to us either way since our egos can make him real to our own little subjective worlds. It is rather pointless to even try to determine if God does or does not exist since we have no means to separate ourselves from our egos and to determine what is external truth and what is simply human truth.

Perhaps the "complete spiritual transformation" which assists addicts is precisely an attempt to 'step outside' our usual/natural human experience - an attempt to touch the divine.

I suspect for most addicts what lies within leads to destructive addiction - so help can only come from without.

 

[technics]

Not necessarily. Your personality can also be broken or bended by external force, for example in a bootcamp.

 

[Satya]

Perhaps the "complete spiritual transformation" which assists addicts is precisely an attempt to 'step outside' our usual/natural human experience - an attempt to touch the divine.

I suspect for most addicts what lies within leads to destructive addiction - so help can only come from without.

I accept this notion but with one alteration. What you call "divine" I simply call relationships. They are what exists between us and the external. Some relationships are as mundane as the one between an individual's body and the physical universe which allows us to understand space and time and to navigate within them. Others are as complex as the relationships between minds of individuals that cultivate the trust people have towards one another and the interactions that are the basis of family or friendship. Relationships tend to be what generates meaning for humans. Even the notion of God is simply another relationship that humans have chosen in order to generate some ultimate meaning in their lives beyond the mortality of their minds.

As I study spiritual transformation I find that it exists within these relationships. For an addict to break free from the relationship they have formed with a drug, they tend to need a relationshp that they hold as more important and more meaningful to their existence. The relationship they can have with a drug can provide them immediate gratification beyond what any human relationship can and so they need something beyond human. They need a relationship that can provide them gratification simply from the act of existence. That is why I love that Karl Marx referred to religion as the opiate of the masses. It seems to simply be a different relationship, a relationship that can provide even greater gratification than that of an actual opiate. This of course is not bound to religion. The concept of "duty" can hold a similar place in a soldier's mind, a relationship between a man and the entirety of his country, that can lead a man to put his life on the line and follow orders without question. It doesn't surprise me that religion have strong militaristic roots and coincide with attempts to unite empires.

As such, I wonder if spirituality is a wonderful feat of human psychology. Perhaps it is a way in which the mind has bypassed the individual's self serving ego and brought it in line with serving the human collective. Morality then simply evolves as a means to regulate the relationships we form as we each individually seek to find meaning in our lives. Our intuition recognizes this but does not concieve its form and so it perceives it as mystical or supernatural.

The notion then is that only relationships can change human beings. As such, complete spiritual transformation would simply be the creation of a relationship that is beyond that of the relationship a human being can form with a drug.

 

[bickelz]

As far as addictions go, a spiritual transformation can be the new addiction. Addicts are always looking for a quick fix, a way out and this is it for many. My dad was an alcoholic, a workoholic, a sexoholic and now a jesusoholic. It's just substituting one addiction for the other, no real change. The same destructive behavior, just in a new language.

 

[Satya]

I believe that there is a distinction between the body, the mind, and the spirit.

The body provides us with instinctive urges, such as hormonal drives, the reptile brain, etc.
The mind provides us with thought and reason, such as cognition, logic, deduction.
The spirit provides us with life, such as the motivations that compel us and the will to be who we are.

There really isn't any scientific evidence for this approach, but it is an approach that has been accepted and understood by cultures around the world for thousands of years. This isn't a perspective that is isolated to one particular school of thought, religion, philosophy, etc. In fact, the philosophy of science is one of the few schools of thought that doesn't include some take on this perspective, however science is an excellent school of thought and therefore one of the most widely accepted.

We have come a long way with science over the years.

Science understands the body on an amazing level because humanity poured massive amounts of resources into understanding it. Understanding the body had the priority. Without the body, we cannot exist in this world.

Science is beginning to unlock the mysteries of the mind because humanity is beginning to shift its focus to the operations of the mind. As understanding of the body becomes stable, it is now time to focus on the mind, that which operates the body.

Just as the more deeply science understood the body the more it unlocked understanding of the mind, the more deeply science understands the mind, the more science will unlock understanding of the spirit. However, just as we lacked the tools to properly measure the mind a hundred years ago, we currently lack the tools to measure the spirit.

That all said, it is possible to affect change in the body by working out, dieting, practicing a physical skill. It is possible to affect change in the mind by gaining knowledge, challenging one's mental capacities, and practicing a mental skill. Therefore, it is possible to affect change in the spirit by engaging one's spirit, feeding it, and using it. How to do this depends on the individual's current spiritual state and spiritual intentions. Just as with the body, you have to tailor your efforts to your desired results.

There was a time in which most of the world accepted that the human body functioned based on the balance of four humors. That time has passed and so too I think will the time pass when we see the division between body, mind, and spirit. Intuition, while attractive, is a weak substitute for experience and measurement.

As I mentioned with FA, I view what people call "spirit" as simply the culmination of relationships an individual forms with their physical environment, their own mind and body, and their fellow humans and other living creatures. I believe "spiritual transformation" is simply the abstract notions of their role within those relationship which could be anything from duty to their country to serving a God to transcendence from suffering.

 

[Satya]

As far as addictions go, a spiritual transformation can be the new addiction. Addicts are always looking for a quick fix, a way out and this is it for many. My dad was an alcoholic, a workoholic, a sexoholic and now a jesusoholic. It's just substituting one addiction for the other, no real change. The same destructive behavior, just in a new language.

Interesting. How exactly is the relationship he has formed with Jesus as destructive as the relationship he had formed with drugs, work, and sex?

 

[invisible]

i had chronic depression a large proportion of my life and have been hospitalised a few times for it during acute episodes. these statements about spirituality seem to be made by people who themselves believe in the value of things that we call spiritual. for me a really important component of recovering has been connecting to a sense of meaning in human activity that is in some way transcendent and redeeming of all of the things that are horrible about human life but i can't call these things spiritual, they seem very earthly to me, and directly related to things that we do. some people may connect to meaning in a spiritual way but others may not and i don't think it's very helpful for people to suggest that these connections must be spiritual. the important thing seems to be the connection to a sense of meaning that is perceived as genuinely valid for the person experiencing it.

i have also had to examine myself critically and change many of my ways of relating to the world which has been a fairly lengthy and demanding transformative process and is still ongoing. but again this word "spiritual" seems a bit wishy washy to me and possibly missing the point of all of the work that i have done.

 

[bickelz]

Interesting. How exactly is the relationship he has formed with Jesus as destructive as the relationship he had formed with drugs, work, and sex?

It destroys relationships and pushes people far away. I'm almost positive he's a narcissist, maybe even a socio-narcissist so that might add in another element that accounts for the destruction and delusion.

He's literally told me to my face numerous times that Jesus comes before my sisters and I.

 

[Satya]

It destroys relationships and pushes people far away. I'm almost positive he's a narcissist, maybe even a socio-narcissist so that might add in another element that accounts for the destruction and delusion.

He's literally told me to my face numerous times that Jesus comes before my sisters and I.

I've been told much the same by my own mother so I can relate. However, I'm not seeing how having such a relationship with Jesus equates to narcissism or is inherently destructive to other relationships. I've also never heard of a "socio-narcissist" which I think is an oxymoron. I'm one of the most critical people when it comes to religion, but if somebody chooses to put their God above all their other relationships, then I'm not sure how exactly that is destructive. An old marriage counselor I knew used to say for a marriage to survive an individual must put their relationship with their spouse ahead of even their relationship with their own children and yet I don't think most people would argue that is inherently destructive. Prioritizing relationships is simply part of life.

It seems to me that you reject the notion of God which seems evident by calling it a "delusion" and therefore resent your father's relationship with it. The fact that your father puts that relationship ahead of even his relationship with you adds more salt to the wound.

He may have at one point put alcohol, work, and sex ahead of his relationship with you, and now that he has his relationship with Jesus he has been able to put you ahead of those destructive habits. The cost is that he has to prioritize his relationship with Jesus but the payoff is you have moved up the ladder and more destructive relationships have moved down the ladder.

 

[randomsomeone]

For me part of the realm of "spirit" has tended to be something quite outside myself and my interior scope or field of vision. There have often been surprises...something new and unexpected. These moments required altogether new ways of perceiving, sometimes quite out of the blue. They have also significantly involved an Other (God, the Divine) in ways very natural, caring, and connected to the essential me, yet at the time so profound, and weighty, and immediate so as to surpass the existing set of givens in my life. The relationship to existing understandings and perceptions only came after these moments, making them real turning points. These connections formed the basis to real life-change, but inititial enlightenment was totally unforeseen.

Spirit generally seems to work in an integrated fashion with the "stuff" we are made of, our perceptions, and our scope of vision, but occasionally things happen in quite a different fashion. There is something else at work. In cases like these, it is a kind of spiritual learning of something new, seeing things unknown. The shocker comes when one finds (in my case anyway) that these things were not "new", not really. They were new to me, but also were profoundly rooted in a wisdom that simply had escaped my notice or was not presented to me. This ultimately makes the experience even more profound, weighty, and life altering. It is at this point where relationships form, but it is not perceived as so initially.

Psychological approaches and processes surely have their place, as to the physical dimensions of a person, but I think it is inaccurate to relegate the spiritual to only an outcome of these. It is something else, connected and integrated at some point holistically perhaps, but still unique and different.

 

[yndsu]

Well, as a former smoker, i overcame it after i was spiritually renewed and then after that renewal i made the decision to stop smoking.
It was still hard, i still had the craving to smoke. But every time i felt like smoking i prayed about it and my need for a fag* went away.

I was also diagnosed with bi-polar disorder soem 10 years ago. It was quite bad, but again, after i started to put more faith in God those
problems that i had before because of my bi-polar have pretty much stopped. Last time i was depressed was some 2 years ago or so i think,
when i was unemployed. If i would go back soem 10 years i would have an depressive episode at least once a month.

Also, to what [MENTION=3545]bickelz[/MENTION] said, as a Christian there is one thing i have realised. The most important relationship in my life is my relationship
with God. That is the one that offers most satisfaction and more importantly, it affects every other relationship aroudn me. And by effect i
mean it enhances them. As a Christian God and Christ should be the first thing on your mind. And that is the one thing that helps with
everything else. And you wont know it until you experience it yourself.

*fag means a cigarette in the English English.

 

[Satya]

It's interesting. This seems to add some supporting evidence to my hypothesis. The only difference is that people interpret their spirituality as something supernatural or mystical when it appears to simply be sociological. I'll have to consider humans in terms of how they prioritize their relationships.

 

[yndsu]

It's interesting. This seems to add some supporting evidence to my hypothesis. The only difference is that people interpret their spirituality as something supernatural or mystical when it appears to simply be sociological. I'll have to consider humans in terms of how they prioritize their relationships.

Well, not everyone does it. But i have been encoureaged by my elders in church to do so.
And yeah, i can see it working for them. And for myself as well.