Turkey Coup Attempt

IF Erdogan is bad you have to think "What was he going to replaced with?" Something as bad or worse? Change is not always for the better. Turkey is a complex country and there are many different things that are going on that we are likely unaware of. To say simplistically "He is a despot and despots should be deposed" or to support change without knowing what the alternative is, is to make potentially make a grievous error. This type of thinking called "nation building" or "nation shaping" has created the justification for meddling into other countries' affairs and has created so many problems in the Middle East and elsewhere in the world.
 
brightmoon said:
IF Erdogan is bad you have to think "What was he going to replaced with?" Something as bad or worse? Change is not always for the better. Turkey is a complex country and there are many different things that are going on that we are likely unaware of. To say simplistically "He is a despot and despots should be deposed" or to support change without knowing what the alternative is, is to make potentially make a grievous error. This type of thinking called "nation building" or "nation shaping" has created the justification for meddling into other countries' affairs and has created so many problems in the Middle East and elsewhere in the world.
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very true. i like the idea of a secular turkey, though.
 
Can there not be one person that sees this as an opportunity for positive influence?
 
How do military coups ever result in more democratic institutions being put in place?? Soldiers are generally not great friends of democracy in these countries. Look at the what has happened in Pakistan and Egypt. This was not a popular uprising and we need to remember that
 
@ezra - I really dislike Erdogan, and I agree with your view on his legitimacy. If this was a peaceful attempt by the civilian population to resist, and overthrow him in favor of a more open democratic government it would have my full support. Sadly it appeared to be a military junta, in a power grab, probably making peoples lives even more restricted and less free? I hope these events trigger some democratic process to remove him peacefully via the ballot box, and install a much better government.

I have to confess I have very mixed views about Churchill. His views and treatment of India and Gandi were pretty terrible, to my mind. He was decisively removed from office in the first election in the UK following the war. If you read up on how he treated many of his subordinates during World War II, you will see he was at times actively despised by them. His own wife wrote to him to admonish him and force him to improve his behavior. She perhaps deserves far more credit for her role, than was ever acknowledged.

He was of course under immense pressure, and he possessed a redeeming trait, in that had huge personal courage, and inspired it in others. It's hard to not be moved by people of that ilk, but I think it would perhaps be dangerous to overlook their flaws
 
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ezra said:
the best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.
- winston churchill
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I wish there was a way to give you a standing ovation for this post.
 
brightmoon said:
How do military coups ever result in more democratic institutions being put in place?? Soldiers are generally not great friends of democracy in these countries. Look at the what has happened in Pakistan and Egypt. This was not a popular uprising and we need to remember that
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you really cant compare egypt and pakistan.
 
brightmoon said:
IF Erdogan is bad you have to think "What was he going to replaced with?" Something as bad or worse? Change is not always for the better. Turkey is a complex country and there are many different things that are going on that we are likely unaware of. To say simplistically "He is a despot and despots should be deposed" or to support change without knowing what the alternative is, is to make potentially make a grievous error. This type of thinking called "nation building" or "nation shaping" has created the justification for meddling into other countries' affairs and has created so many problems in the Middle East and elsewhere in the world.
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I there ever a time when nation building or intervention of some kind has done good? I find it difficult to believe that one can't prevent undesirable people from taking over a society in all circumstances, because it other wise would have been impossible for nations to expand--nations that tried would've just gotten quagmires at all times.
 
ezra said:
you really cant compare egypt and pakistan.
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Only in terms of what rule by military juntas have done to promote democracy . The answer is: "Not too much"
 
brightmoon said:
Only in terms of what rule by military juntas have done to promote democracy . The answer is: "Not too much"
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the pakistani and egyptian militaries are nothing alike. im not a fan of military rule, im just saying. the turkish military, for instance, does not swear allegiance to the government. they are a vanguard of the turkish constitution. i guess it wasnt possible this time.
 
Chicken coup
 
So the coup has failed and so many people have been hurt or killed for no good reason.

Turkey apparently has a long history of coups and this one was a long time coming. I wonder how things will change in the country because of it.
 
El Sissi was the best move for Egypt. Morsi was an Obama puppet from Muslim Brotherhood that sponsored groups fighting Israel. One of Obama's mistakes.
 
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