View on tradition

IndigoSensor said:
Try telling that to my dads side of the family, hahahaha. I do try to do that at family gatherings, which ends in my dad scolding me for being "rude" in his eyes. I just laugh now.
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I've thought about this before when you mentioned your dad. It may not be my place to ask (maybe I'm too curious..), so please feel free to not answer. Without meaning to sound ignorant.. I know he's your dad, but sometimes I wonder what makes you decide to still see him and spend time with him? It sounds like you guys are polar opposites
 
Soulful said:
I've thought about this before when you mentioned your dad. It may not be my place to ask (maybe I'm too curious..), so please feel free to not answer. Without meaning to sound ignorant.. I know he's your dad, but sometimes I wonder what makes you decide to still see him and spend time with him? It sounds like you guys are polar opposites
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The only reason I still see him is for finacial reasons. He cosigns my loans for college (which I do need). My mom has the abillity to do it, but she is aprehensive to it and I do not want to make her if I have another option. If it were not for finichal ties, I would not have barely any contact with him. I still keep it to a point where I wait for him to contact me if he wants to talk, I wont reach out anymore.

When I am home, it really feels like a chore to have to go spend time with him. Once I am done college, I will likely have little to no contact with him. I know it will upset him, but if he really wants a relationship with me, he has to stop approaching it from just his point of view.
 
VindurNótt said:
I believe she's referring to MBTI Idealists (NFs), not some universal standard of what is ideal.
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Oh I see. I admit I am not very familiar with MBTI and was mostly introduced to it by Merrytrees. Although I get the gist of it.
 
uberrogo said:
Oh I see. I admit I am not very familiar with MBTI and was mostly introduced to it by Merrytrees. Although I get the gist of it.
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Well, I guess we wil have to start edumacating you on it! :D
 
IndigoSensor said:
The only reason I still see him is for finacial reasons. He cosigns my loans for college (which I do need). My mom has the abillity to do it, but she is aprehensive to it and I do not want to make her if I have another option. If it were not for finichal ties, I would not have barely any contact with him. I still keep it to a point where I wait for him to contact me if he wants to talk, I wont reach out anymore.

When I am home, it really feels like a chore to have to go spend time with him. Once I am done college, I will likely have little to no contact with him. I know it will upset him, but if he really wants a relationship with me, he has to stop approaching it from just his point of view.
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Does he ever initiate the contact with you? Or is it just "dad I need the signature, see ya next year."
 
uberrogo said:
Does he ever initiate the contact with you? Or is it just "dad I need the signature, see ya next year."
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Oh no he does try to contact me, but he does in a way I do not repsond well to. Like I said before we are very different. He does not except my values and outlook on life. He has on many occasions called my belifs (wether religious, politicals, life outlook, ect) "wrong, stupid, hogwash, oggie-boogie stuff, pointless" you get the idea. And will then proceed to try to convince me otherwise, not listining to my view, correcting everything that could be wrong. He uses no sensitivty at all with it either. I avoid such topics because I do not want to waste energy on it. He just wants to argue. He also does not except my homosexuality at ALL (another long story that I do not feel like typing out). Thus I can not even mention it in the slighest. I have to hide who I really am around him, which I do not like to do. He also tries to get me to do things I don't like, and he wont get it through his head that I don't like them. Stuff like hunting, fishing, ect. He just doesnt respect me as a person, and is secretive about himself and his past. For me to have a relationship with somone, I like to share this information and form a connection. He doesn't, and refuses to even try to meet in the middle. I have deemed it a lost cause a long time ago. Yet he still tries.
 
uberrogo said:
Is there some sort of objective ideal, and where do i find its definition?
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The dictionary.

uberrogo said:
What should the values of tradition and family look like? I agree that industrialization has corrupted the "old ways". But I am open that there may be older ways that were corrupted before that, and that they might be key to understanding the correct way of tradition and family.
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What should they look like? Who needs to establish what they should look like?? That's the point, the only reason we are told what they should look like is one, to tell us how we should behave and if we deviate from what the traditional structure should look like, then that is an indication that there is something wrong with us.. and two, to gear us to buy up shit. The second one is most obvious! Observe the people practically eating each other like hamsters outside of Best Buy on Black Friday to buy up all the pretty gifts that make it obvious that they are 'good' relatives and adherant followers of Christmas tradition etc etc etc etc etc.
 
merrytrees said:
The dictionary.
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I looked it up in the dictionary and the dictionary has failed me. Although it did prove the point I was getting at, and that is that the ideal is subjective. What you think is the ideal society is not necessarilly my ideal society.

What should they look like? Who needs to establish what they should look like?? That's the point, the only reason we are told what they should look like is one, to tell us how we should behave and if we deviate from what the traditional structure should look like, then that is an indication that there is something wrong with us.. and two, to gear us to buy up shit. The second one is most obvious! Observe the people practically eating each other like hamsters outside of Best Buy on Black Friday to buy up all the pretty gifts that make it obvious that they are 'good' relatives and adherant followers of Christmas tradition etc etc etc etc etc.
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So Are you telling me that you dont even know what you are living for except some arbitrary, far away, "idealistic society"... that you dont even know what it would look like? I think you are only "idealistic" when it facilitates you being a contrarian for contraians-sake.
 
uberrogo said:
So Are you telling me that you dont even know what you are living for except some arbitrary, far away, "idealistic society"... that you dont even know what it would look like? I think you are only "idealistic" when it facilitates you being a contrarian for contraians-sake.
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What the hades are you talking about? Did I ever say I don't know what I'm living for? I don't recall saying that.

This doesn't make a lot of sense. Are you trying to say that because I think that the majority of the shit that goes on in our society is a facade, I wander aimlessly in search of a perfect world but wait a minute--not quite, because I only have my beliefs because they get a rise out of more traditional types? Rubbish.

Do you mean to say you really can't fathom how you would live your life were it not for the traditions your culture established? You can't think outside the box?
 
uberrogo said:
I looked it up in the dictionary and the dictionary has failed me. Although it did prove the point I was getting at, and that is that the ideal is subjective. What you think is the ideal society is not necessarilly my ideal society.



So Are you telling me that you dont even know what you are living for except some arbitrary, far away, "idealistic society"... that you dont even know what it would look like? I think you are only "idealistic" when it facilitates you being a contrarian for contraians-sake.
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Oh. I don't think merrytrees is contrarian for contrarian's sake at all. And i really don't see anything wrong with living in and or for some far away idealistic society. For some INFP types, that is exactly where we live. If we knew what it looked like, we would confine it and chain it and take away the Freedom of it. Who would do that to an ideal society? That wouldn't seem at all right to do. So that ideal society is free-wheeling and we live in dreams and mythologies and daydreams and streaming-consciouness streams and in all sort of odd things. Take this from us and you may as well try to put us in prisons, but there ain't a fuckin' prison built yet that can possibly contain us. :smile:
 
mayflow said:
Oh. I don't think merrytrees is contrarian for contrarian's sake at all. And i really don't see anything wrong with living in and or for some far away idealistic society. For some INFP types, that is exactly where we live. If we knew what it looked like, we would confine it and chain it and take away the Freedom of it. Who would do that to an ideal society? That wouldn't seem at all right to do. So that ideal society is free-wheeling and we live in dreams and mythologies and daydreams and streaming-consciouness streams and in all sort of odd things. Take this from us and you may as well try to put us in prisons, but there ain't a fuckin' prison built yet that can possibly contain us. :smile:
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Beautiful. It is a bittersweet life for us..
 
merrytrees said:
What the hades are you talking about? Did I ever say I don't know what I'm living for? I don't recall saying that.

This doesn't make a lot of sense. Are you trying to say that because I think that the majority of the shit that goes on in our society is a facade, I wander aimlessly in search of a perfect world but wait a minute--not quite, because I only have my beliefs because they get a rise out of more traditional types? Rubbish.

Do you mean to say you really can't fathom how you would live your life were it not for the traditions your culture established? You can't think outside the box?
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Yes I can think of many ways to live. But you answered my question with a question and a rant about how we are being controlled to purchase things.


Then just tell me what it is instead of what it is not. Or dont tell me at all, whatev. Just say you dont want to tell.
 
uberrogo said:
Yes I can think of many ways to live. But you answered my question with a question and a rant about how we are being controlled to purchase things.


Then just tell me what it is instead of what it is not. Or dont tell me at all, whatev. Just say you dont want to tell.
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How can I tell you what it is when I only know what it is not? (teehee!)
 
uberrogo said:
Yes I can think of many ways to live. But you answered my question with a question and a rant about how we are being controlled to purchase things.


Then just tell me what it is instead of what it is not. Or dont tell me at all, whatev. Just say you dont want to tell.
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I think this is really a strong differential between stj and the nfp. You look for this is, this is not or you don't want to say. nfp's start dreaming and seeing Rainbows and possibilites beyond any of these things. I understand you didn't catch on to what I said before about we can't be confined in prisons. That is not really different than merry talking about thinking outside of the box. Don't you see you just tried to put her in a box of your own mental creation? You just can't do that to an infp. They are like the Eagles in Anthony DeMellow's "Awareness" book, but not the ones that think they are chickens, but the ones that know and are aware that they are eagles. Eagles can fly and they will NOT be grounded. It's an AWARENESS thing. :smile:
 
mayflow said:
I think this is really a strong differential between stj and the nfp. You look for this is, this is not or you don't want to say. nfp's start dreaming and seeing Rainbows and possibilites beyond any of these things. I understand you didn't catch on to what I said before about we can't be confined in prisons. That is not really different than merry talking about thinking outside of the box. Don't you see you just tried to put her in a box of your own mental creation? You just can't do that to an infp. They are like the Eagles in Anthony DeMellow's "Awareness" book, but not the ones that think they are chickens, but the ones that know and are aware that they are eagles. Eagles can fly and they will NOT be grounded. It's an AWARENESS thing. :smile:
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I just want to hear about the rainbows.

:(
 
I have an idea of what it would look like, but I don't know. How could I? You're looking for some concrete answer that doesn't exist.
 
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