whytiger
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Some friends and I typed him as an INTJ based on his past studies and interests in science. He was quiet, a loner, carefully planned out the massacre (in a J sort of way).
What do you think causes a person to massacre others?
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Some friends and I typed him as an INTJ based on his past studies and interests in science. He was quiet, a loner, carefully planned out the massacre (in a J sort of way).
arbygil
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I think we're going to find out more about it when Holmes' statements are made later this morning, but I have a feeling he's going to say a few things that will surprise folks. He could be a very well-groomed, clean-cut sociopath who wanted to do a real-time experiment regarding the mindset of people in horrific circumstances. He was studying neuroscience...and I wouldn't put it past a sociopath to see "what would happen if" and cause a situation like this.
I don't think there are any easy answers, however. I think he was very good at hiding his darker personality. But then, most sociopaths are good at this. We may never know why he did it, but the answer is he did it. What chills me further? I don't think Holmes is that uncommon. I think there are a million "James Holmes" out there, but they have enough empathy to put a lid on it. Or they might not have the money or the ability to put together something like this. Heck, check the majority of your internet boards and you'll find someone like this kid out there.
The better question is this: What is the marker between acting it out in fantasy, and acting it out in reality? Where's the line? What "sets people off" into trying this in reality, rather than keeping it a fantasy?
I don't think there are any easy answers, however. I think he was very good at hiding his darker personality. But then, most sociopaths are good at this. We may never know why he did it, but the answer is he did it. What chills me further? I don't think Holmes is that uncommon. I think there are a million "James Holmes" out there, but they have enough empathy to put a lid on it. Or they might not have the money or the ability to put together something like this. Heck, check the majority of your internet boards and you'll find someone like this kid out there.
The better question is this: What is the marker between acting it out in fantasy, and acting it out in reality? Where's the line? What "sets people off" into trying this in reality, rather than keeping it a fantasy?
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Captain Obvious.
CindyLou
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Exactly, that is exactly my thinking. When I first heard about it I suspected it and when i found out he was in the phd neuroscience program...I knew it.
What sets him off is what he thinks is his integrity. He took his philosophy to its end. There isn't any reason for him to pretend to feel empathy for other people. The only thing keeping him from killing others was the consequences, and his curiosity surpassed what the thought were the consequences. They're dead, who cares. I mean, it doesn't really matter does it? Those experiences they had with their kids and families were all just biochemical reactions in the brain, not really of any meaning and and of no value. When he dies who cares either? I believe that is his mindset.
Nixie
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He's at the far end of the age range but there could be schizophrenia that created delusionial, violent behavior. People who have such disorders that do not seek treatment or refuse treatment are at a greater risk of living in a fantasy world. Additionally, they can function normally and tend to be a bit paranoid and don't share their intrusive thoughts. Heck, it is difficult to get people who have a diagnosed mental illness to get treatment sometimes, let alone someone who has never sought help.
There weren't any of the typical signs of a troubled youth being reported (like the Columbine kids) especially anti social behavior. He is obviously intelligent. Could lead you to believe that his scientific tendencies made him less socialized than some and perhaps a bit of a loner.
Hard to tell.
There weren't any of the typical signs of a troubled youth being reported (like the Columbine kids) especially anti social behavior. He is obviously intelligent. Could lead you to believe that his scientific tendencies made him less socialized than some and perhaps a bit of a loner.
Hard to tell.
muir
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The massacre happened near columbine where another massacre happened. Colorado manufactures many weapons for the US government. In fact the US government is the biggest arms dealer in the world!
Death dealing weapons are BIG BUSINESS for the US government, not to mention the weapons it uses itself in its various conflicts around the globe
Privately owned corporations make vast amounts of money from weapons manufacturing in the US
This massacre has happened just before a UN treaty on small arms which Obama and Clinton will be attending and George Soros is pumpin money through his organisation 'media matters' to create anti-gun articles in the media
There will be calls for greater gun controls and there will be legislation drawn up to enforce this....but it will be done gradually one step at a time
It seems that the government and the military industrial complex that has swallowed up the government are allowed to have guns and sell guns but the american public will not be allowed to have guns
Death dealing weapons are BIG BUSINESS for the US government, not to mention the weapons it uses itself in its various conflicts around the globe
Privately owned corporations make vast amounts of money from weapons manufacturing in the US
This massacre has happened just before a UN treaty on small arms which Obama and Clinton will be attending and George Soros is pumpin money through his organisation 'media matters' to create anti-gun articles in the media
There will be calls for greater gun controls and there will be legislation drawn up to enforce this....but it will be done gradually one step at a time
It seems that the government and the military industrial complex that has swallowed up the government are allowed to have guns and sell guns but the american public will not be allowed to have guns
muir
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No i'm really not....
The topic is asking what we think causes a person to massacre
I think a certain culture of violence is cultivated by a system that trades in death
I also believe that the people behind this system are able to manipulate people to do violence, whether it is desensitising young people through TV and computer games or whether it is training a soldier to obey rather than question or........and this is where i will no doubt lose some people......i also believe that the people behind the system have been using mind control methods to make people do things.....the work by the CIA on this is documented
Below is some info on such experiments from wikipedia:
Project MKUltra, or MK-Ultra, was a covert human research program into behavioral modification run by the Central Intelligence Agency's (CIA) Office of Scientific Intelligence. The program began in the early 1950s, was officially sanctioned in 1953, was reduced in scope in 1964, further curtailed in 1967 and finally halted in 1973.[SUP][1][/SUP] It controversially used unwitting U.S. and Canadian citizens as its test subjects.[SUP][2][/SUP][SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP] MKUltra involved the use of many methodologies to manipulate people's individual mental states and alter brain functions, including the surreptitious administration of drugs (especially LSD) and other chemicals, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, isolation, verbal and sexual abuse, as well as various forms of torture.[SUP][6][/SUP]
The research was undertaken at 80 institutions, including 44 colleges and universities, as well as hospitals, prisons and pharmaceutical companies.[SUP][7][/SUP] The CIA would operate through these institutions using front organizations, although sometimes top officials at these institutions would be aware of the CIA's involvement.[SUP][8][/SUP] MKUltra was allocated 6 percent of total CIA funds.[SUP][9][/SUP]
Project MKUltra was first brought to wide public attention in 1975 by the U.S. Congress, through investigations by the Church Committee, and by a presidential commission known as the Rockefeller Commission. Investigative efforts were hampered by the fact that CIA Director Richard Helms ordered all MKUltra files destroyed in 1973; the Church Committee and Rockefeller Commission investigations relied on the sworn testimony of direct participants and on the relatively small number of documents that survived Helms' destruction order.[SUP][10][/SUP]
In 1977, a Freedom Of Information Act request uncovered a cache of 20,000 documents[SUP][11][/SUP] relating to project MKUltra, which led to Senate hearings later that same year.[SUP][3][/SUP] In July 2001 most surviving information regarding MKUltra was officially declassified.[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra
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muir
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Sure this guy might just be some nutjob who has flipped out.....i'm open to that possibility but i am also open to the possibility that there might be more than meets the eye to this situation
The timing of this massacre for a start is a bit odd with a UN treaty on guns coming up which might undermine the second amendment
ex CIA operative Victor Marchetti said that Project MKUltra and all its offshoots never shut down...they are still going
Here's what he said about the link between the CIA and the president:
The real reason for the official secrecy, in most instances, is not to keep the opposition (the CIA's euphemistic term for the enemy) from knowing what is going on; the enemy usually does know. The basic reason for governmental secrecy is to keep you, the American public, from knowing – for you, too, are considered the opposition, or enemy – so that you cannot interfere. When the public does not know what the government or the CIA is doing, it cannot voice its approval or disapproval of their actions. In fact, they can even lie to your about what they are doing or have done, and you will not know it. As for the second advantage, despite frequent suggestion that the CIA is a rogue elephant, the truth is that the agency functions at the direction of and in response to the office of the president. All of its major clandestine operations are carried out with the direct approval of or on direct orders from the White House. The CIA is a secret tool of the president – every president. And every president since Truman has lied to the American people in order to protect the agency. When lies have failed, it has been the duty of the CIA to take the blame for the president, thus protecting him. This is known in the business as "plausible denial." The CIA, functioning as a secret instrument of the U.S. government and the presidency, has long misused and abused history and continues to do so.
— Victor Marchetti, Propaganda and Disinformation: How the CIA Manufactures History[SUP][
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Marchetti
[/SUP]
The timing of this massacre for a start is a bit odd with a UN treaty on guns coming up which might undermine the second amendment
ex CIA operative Victor Marchetti said that Project MKUltra and all its offshoots never shut down...they are still going
Here's what he said about the link between the CIA and the president:
The real reason for the official secrecy, in most instances, is not to keep the opposition (the CIA's euphemistic term for the enemy) from knowing what is going on; the enemy usually does know. The basic reason for governmental secrecy is to keep you, the American public, from knowing – for you, too, are considered the opposition, or enemy – so that you cannot interfere. When the public does not know what the government or the CIA is doing, it cannot voice its approval or disapproval of their actions. In fact, they can even lie to your about what they are doing or have done, and you will not know it. As for the second advantage, despite frequent suggestion that the CIA is a rogue elephant, the truth is that the agency functions at the direction of and in response to the office of the president. All of its major clandestine operations are carried out with the direct approval of or on direct orders from the White House. The CIA is a secret tool of the president – every president. And every president since Truman has lied to the American people in order to protect the agency. When lies have failed, it has been the duty of the CIA to take the blame for the president, thus protecting him. This is known in the business as "plausible denial." The CIA, functioning as a secret instrument of the U.S. government and the presidency, has long misused and abused history and continues to do so.
— Victor Marchetti, Propaganda and Disinformation: How the CIA Manufactures History[SUP][
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Marchetti
[/SUP]
muir
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Obama calls for tighter gun controls (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/26/obama-gun-control-laws-tightened ):
President Obama has addressed the issue of gun control for the first time since the Colorado film premiere shootings, appealing for "a consensus around violence reduction" and suggesting assault rifles "belong on the battlefield".
The president's comments came as the Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney said the US did not need new gun laws and argued that "changing the heart of the American people" might be the way to avoid future tragedy instead.
Gun control is a sensitive topic for both candidates, although a study published on Tuesday showed widespread support for some forms of tighter gun laws among gun owners and even National Rifle Association members.
"I believe the second amendment guarantees an individual the right to bear arms," Obama said on Wednesday night. "But I also believe that a lot of gun owners would agree that AK-47s belong in the hands of soldiers, not on the streets of our cities."
It was the first time Obama has addressed the issue of gun control since the Aurora shootings. Speaking to the National Urban League Conference in New Orleans, the president did not make specific proposals but raised the issue of violent crime in the US.
Emerald Dreams
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So his massacre is a conspiracy? That's certainly possible, and would make the discussion of his psyche completely different. We generally view killing lots of people once ordered to do so by a superior as a sane action, otherwise every person who went to war would be more or less insane. Sane and insane is basically just a way of saying whether someone or not fits into society or deviates wildly from societal and behavioral norms. Mental deviations and illnesses are often causes for insanity.
But I'd say anyone who views another person's life as meaningless or much less meaningful than his/her own would be able to create a massacre. People are able to kill mosquitoes, spiders, plants, etc. because they don't value that form of life. And indeed in order to survive humans must consume *some* form of life, so the idea that humans can naturally not empathize with certain forms of life is innate.
I would say there are many different reasons why someone would massacre others or view other humans as worthless. Some would be genetic - some people naturally have no empathy for others or do not view them as meaningful. Some would be societal - racism, hatred, discrimination. Some would be personal - you had a bad life, you were never the receiver of love or care and so you created a disconnect between yourself and others. Some might even do it purely out of rage.
In this case, it seems like the man didn't value the life of others, and was inspired to kill many people for some reasons. Maybe it was just an experiment in psychology to him.
But I'd say anyone who views another person's life as meaningless or much less meaningful than his/her own would be able to create a massacre. People are able to kill mosquitoes, spiders, plants, etc. because they don't value that form of life. And indeed in order to survive humans must consume *some* form of life, so the idea that humans can naturally not empathize with certain forms of life is innate.
I would say there are many different reasons why someone would massacre others or view other humans as worthless. Some would be genetic - some people naturally have no empathy for others or do not view them as meaningful. Some would be societal - racism, hatred, discrimination. Some would be personal - you had a bad life, you were never the receiver of love or care and so you created a disconnect between yourself and others. Some might even do it purely out of rage.
In this case, it seems like the man didn't value the life of others, and was inspired to kill many people for some reasons. Maybe it was just an experiment in psychology to him.
InvisibleJim
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He clearly felt that the risk reward ratio of 'massacre' was in his favour. I guess it's only rational. I was recently watching a few videos that relayed how males in society are increasingly ostracized and with economic times being tough and people seeing no alternative eventually extreme courses of action win out.
Nixie
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I would like to point out he apparently had a degree in advanced science and was until recently continuing his eduation. He quit his progam, spent months building an arsenal of weapons and armor, sent a package to the university detailing his thoughts, booby trapped his apartment, dyed his hair red and when arrested, claimed he was the joker.
I dunno but to me his actions, although organized, still make me suspect some kind of delusional state more than anything.
I dunno but to me his actions, although organized, still make me suspect some kind of delusional state more than anything.
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Cornerstone
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I think the fact that he took the time to dye his hair and still looked nothing like The Joker supports [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]'s argument.
Also, Eminem.
Also, Eminem.
just me
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MKUltra was an embarrassment when exposed. It was renamed Bluebird and continued behind the scenes. Few knew about its existence in the higher ups. edited: too much information.
@muir, you are absolutely correct with your information. Maybe you know where that was an offshoot from.
Gun control is a big thing to Clinton and Obama, but they need all the fuel they can get for it to take place. Taking it to the UN to bypass our Second Amendment rights. If they pass this, I am an INFJ and feel people will die. I don't think they can get away with it without it costing some of them their lives. People are not going to allow big brother guns and not be able to stand up against their BS. America is the last stronghold. NRA is our protectors. Join them.
Conspiracy? Possibility exists. People used to get paid big bucks to blow themselves up. Remember Beirut? I most certainly do. We sent those people as peacekeepers and brought them home in body bags. Have that on your conscious. Over two hundred Marines.
This has spilled over into other areas of the world too quickly. Our new government is at the very least opportunists.
Don't think people don't die for some to get their way. Many people live in fairytale worlds. There are people out there trying to destroy large governments and economies to have a one world government. They are sick. It would most likely only work if there was but one King. Some say it will come to that. Imagine that: building something to have it taken away, but for the best of the people.
@muir, you are absolutely correct with your information. Maybe you know where that was an offshoot from.
Gun control is a big thing to Clinton and Obama, but they need all the fuel they can get for it to take place. Taking it to the UN to bypass our Second Amendment rights. If they pass this, I am an INFJ and feel people will die. I don't think they can get away with it without it costing some of them their lives. People are not going to allow big brother guns and not be able to stand up against their BS. America is the last stronghold. NRA is our protectors. Join them.
Conspiracy? Possibility exists. People used to get paid big bucks to blow themselves up. Remember Beirut? I most certainly do. We sent those people as peacekeepers and brought them home in body bags. Have that on your conscious. Over two hundred Marines.
This has spilled over into other areas of the world too quickly. Our new government is at the very least opportunists.
Don't think people don't die for some to get their way. Many people live in fairytale worlds. There are people out there trying to destroy large governments and economies to have a one world government. They are sick. It would most likely only work if there was but one King. Some say it will come to that. Imagine that: building something to have it taken away, but for the best of the people.
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just me
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I watched years ago some of the tactics used in countries we rarely read about and cannot help but wonder why some people are called copycats. Did anyone ever think this guy as a copycat? Someone looking for attention?
He is a byproduct of a system that lets people like him get away with things like what he did. He should have never been alive and on TV. Reminds me of a joke. Father asked his son if he could get anything for him at the breakfast table. Son said, "Yeah, pass the $#&*&^% grits." His Father slapped him off the chair and onto the floor. The Father asked his other son the same question a moment after his brother got up and sat back down. "I sure as &%$# don't want any of those $#&*&^% grits." Hey, Hillary: it's not the guns or the mags.
He is a byproduct of a system that lets people like him get away with things like what he did. He should have never been alive and on TV. Reminds me of a joke. Father asked his son if he could get anything for him at the breakfast table. Son said, "Yeah, pass the $#&*&^% grits." His Father slapped him off the chair and onto the floor. The Father asked his other son the same question a moment after his brother got up and sat back down. "I sure as &%$# don't want any of those $#&*&^% grits." Hey, Hillary: it's not the guns or the mags.
acd
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