What is a Happy Marriage?
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Billy, I'm sorry about the jaded, it is unnatural and painful in an INFJ.
Personally, I cannot maintain jaded for longer than about 3 days, max; I hope yours goes away soon.
Amen sistah. It happens to the guys, too. But realistic is not totally bad, either, in my opinion.
Personally, I cannot maintain jaded for longer than about 3 days, max; I hope yours goes away soon. Amen sistah. It happens to the guys, too. But realistic is not totally bad, either, in my opinion.
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Billy, I'm sorry about the jaded, it is unnatural and painful in an INFJ.
Amen sistah. It happens to the guys, too. But realistic is not totally bad, either, in my opinion.
Lets hope so! lol
kita
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By 'giving tv love a shot' do you mean you pretended to be in love?
It is possible to be excited by the same person for 10+ years. Even if (like me) you have gotten bored in every other relationship in much less time.
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klutzo
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Hi all,
I'm an old fart compared to most of you and have been married 3 times, so I can tell you from my POV what is not important, even though I thought it was when I was your age and first got married at age 23, and what really IS important, from the POV of what has made my current 25 year long marriage so good. These are just my opinions, so you can take what you want and leave the rest. I am not a romantic. I have what shrinks call an "extreme realist personality type".
Some of this may shock you. It would have shocked me at your age, but maybe you are all a lot more savvy than I was. Having the same political beliefs is not important. Having the same hobbies and free time activities is not important. Looks are only important in that you should not be with someone who has a physical charcteristic that really turns you off. We all end up looking like shriveled, gray old prunes in the end, so if you want it to last, don't make this such a big deal. At your age, sexual compatibility as far as sexual style and frequency is very important, but that will fade to zilch with age and hormones, and other, more mature societies understand these stages of life. Sex is the lowest form of intimacy, not the highest. It is the carrot dangled in front of you to get you to put up with someone long enough to start developing REAL intimacy. Shallow Americans don't get this and try to stay 20 forever. Viva Viagra (not).
IMO, very few people should get married before age 25. Why? The brain of a 20 year old is closer to the brain of a 5 year old than to the brain of a 25 year old! I remember being 20 and thinking I knew everything. By age 30 I realized I didn't know a damn thing. The brain stops changing significantly around age 25. You don't really know who you are before that and are busy finding out by experimenting on other people, with sometimes painful results.
What does matter. Number one is absolutely common values, with lifestyle a close second. If you love family time, it won't work to marry someone who is not close to family. A slob and a neatnik will be at each other constantly. An athiest will not be happy with a believer. An extrovert will not be happy with an introvert. People who think intuition is "woo-woo" will not be happy with an INFJ!
How you handle money is super important. A spendthrift and a tightwad should not waste their time. It will never work. Ditto for someone who wants kids and someone who doesn't. I'm amazed how many people I see not even talking about these things before getting married. Different religions can be problematic, esp. if your parents are rigid. Americans like to pretend we have no economic classes, but it's not true, and it matters, a lot. Unless you are a gold-digger, willing to sell your soul for money, and I would be surprised to find an INFJ who would do that, unless he or she is a sociopath, marrying into a very different economic class from the one you grew up in can cause major problems. Take it from one who found out the hard way. Just try splitting payment of household bills 50/50 when your idea of a needless luxury is his idea of a basic need.
Don't marry someone you can't talk to on your level. This will make you feel lonelier than being single. If you are smart, stick with smart, even if he or she can't be manipulated into doing what you want all the time because of it (grin).
If you are emotional and sensitive, don't try to make up for your vulnerable feelings in this hard, cold world by marrying the opposite type. Again, I speak from experience. You will never feel more alone than when you are crying your eyes out after a sad movie, and he says "it's only a movie for chrissakes, what is the matter with you?" It is far better to have a man who cries along with you. You will feel understood at the deepest level.
Every study ever done shows the more alike you are, the better your chances of staying married. Opposites may attract and be much more exciting when you're young and playing around, but they take way too much energy and cause way too many arguments when you are older and have work, and a house and kids to take care of.
Once you decide you are ready to play for keeps, don't waste any more time on someone, once you know for sure you would not marry that person. Cut your losses and open up that space in your life for the right type to come in. I really wish someone had told me this when I was your age.
I hope I didn't come off like too much of a lecturing parent type. It just makes me sad to see others run out of emotional resilience at a young age like I did. I probably could have summed this up in one sentence. My current marriage has worked for 25 yrs. because I married someone almost exactly like me.
klutzo
Hi all,
I'm an old fart compared to most of you and have been married 3 times, so I can tell you from my POV what is not important, even though I thought it was when I was your age and first got married at age 23, and what really IS important, from the POV of what has made my current 25 year long marriage so good. These are just my opinions, so you can take what you want and leave the rest. I am not a romantic. I have what shrinks call an "extreme realist personality type".
Some of this may shock you. It would have shocked me at your age, but maybe you are all a lot more savvy than I was. Having the same political beliefs is not important. Having the same hobbies and free time activities is not important. Looks are only important in that you should not be with someone who has a physical charcteristic that really turns you off. We all end up looking like shriveled, gray old prunes in the end, so if you want it to last, don't make this such a big deal. At your age, sexual compatibility as far as sexual style and frequency is very important, but that will fade to zilch with age and hormones, and other, more mature societies understand these stages of life. Sex is the lowest form of intimacy, not the highest. It is the carrot dangled in front of you to get you to put up with someone long enough to start developing REAL intimacy. Shallow Americans don't get this and try to stay 20 forever. Viva Viagra (not).
IMO, very few people should get married before age 25. Why? The brain of a 20 year old is closer to the brain of a 5 year old than to the brain of a 25 year old! I remember being 20 and thinking I knew everything. By age 30 I realized I didn't know a damn thing. The brain stops changing significantly around age 25. You don't really know who you are before that and are busy finding out by experimenting on other people, with sometimes painful results.
What does matter. Number one is absolutely common values, with lifestyle a close second. If you love family time, it won't work to marry someone who is not close to family. A slob and a neatnik will be at each other constantly. An athiest will not be happy with a believer. An extrovert will not be happy with an introvert. People who think intuition is "woo-woo" will not be happy with an INFJ!
How you handle money is super important. A spendthrift and a tightwad should not waste their time. It will never work. Ditto for someone who wants kids and someone who doesn't. I'm amazed how many people I see not even talking about these things before getting married. Different religions can be problematic, esp. if your parents are rigid. Americans like to pretend we have no economic classes, but it's not true, and it matters, a lot. Unless you are a gold-digger, willing to sell your soul for money, and I would be surprised to find an INFJ who would do that, unless he or she is a sociopath, marrying into a very different economic class from the one you grew up in can cause major problems. Take it from one who found out the hard way. Just try splitting payment of household bills 50/50 when your idea of a needless luxury is his idea of a basic need.
Don't marry someone you can't talk to on your level. This will make you feel lonelier than being single. If you are smart, stick with smart, even if he or she can't be manipulated into doing what you want all the time because of it (grin).
If you are emotional and sensitive, don't try to make up for your vulnerable feelings in this hard, cold world by marrying the opposite type. Again, I speak from experience. You will never feel more alone than when you are crying your eyes out after a sad movie, and he says "it's only a movie for chrissakes, what is the matter with you?" It is far better to have a man who cries along with you. You will feel understood at the deepest level.
Every study ever done shows the more alike you are, the better your chances of staying married. Opposites may attract and be much more exciting when you're young and playing around, but they take way too much energy and cause way too many arguments when you are older and have work, and a house and kids to take care of.
Once you decide you are ready to play for keeps, don't waste any more time on someone, once you know for sure you would not marry that person. Cut your losses and open up that space in your life for the right type to come in. I really wish someone had told me this when I was your age.
I hope I didn't come off like too much of a lecturing parent type. It just makes me sad to see others run out of emotional resilience at a young age like I did. I probably could have summed this up in one sentence. My current marriage has worked for 25 yrs. because I married someone almost exactly like me.
klutzo
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It means I let myself fall in love with someone and play house with her for 8 years before it completely broke down due to incompatibility. We fought and struggled through the whole time, it was probably not worth saving in the end since it was in fact not saved. In the end she was bored of me and I was sick of her.
The rub in "love" of course is compatibility, and sadly not everyone finds that before they expire from the dating scene.
Ecton
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Klutzo, you nailed it. I couldn't agree more. You should write a book.
I also think Flavus and QuestingPoet and mf, and Janet, and Gloomy, and the others also had good points.
Billy, it really does exist. Sucks when you can't find it, though, and no, it aint fair.
Uberroggo is gonna get hit with a big ole arrow one day.
I also think Flavus and QuestingPoet and mf, and Janet, and Gloomy, and the others also had good points.
Billy, it really does exist. Sucks when you can't find it, though, and no, it aint fair.
Uberroggo is gonna get hit with a big ole arrow one day.
Ha Ha, I think you're right!
yepunsarang
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Wow klutzo, some VERY wise words! I dunno, i've been thinking about marriage randomly recently too...wondering what seems to work what seems not to. Your "lecture" doesn't seem exceedingly parental at all. I wish my parents would tell me this so I could talk to them about it. But they just seem plain paranoid more than anything.
I'm glad although I'm only 20, i've realized how important it is to be with someone who's very much like you. So far, the only people who have interested me are people like that. Thanks for reassuring that belief! I'll keep all your comments in mind...
klutzo
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Being totally honest.....
In the interest of total honesty, which is always my policy, I have to say that my husband is not exactly like me, just very close to it. I am not a narcissist, so I don't want a mirror image....there would be no personal growth there.
He is not INFJ. He is ISFJ, but having seen many demonstrations of my wild predictions coming true, he trusts my N function most of the time, except when it is too pessimistic for him. He has a more sanguine temperament than I do. I am a melancholic type.
He is also a complete slob and I am a neatnik. As I said in my first post above, this is annoying as hell, and what TV's Dr. Phil calls "a deal breaker", but in his case, the part of his brain that handles organization and visual memory was damaged when he fell down the stairs and fractured his skull at two years old, so it is not his fault, and when I am about to go ballistic, I try to remind myself of that. Also, the only men I've ever met in my age group who were neat were either gay or had OCD!
I am glad I did not come off as a lecturing parental type. I could not have kids, one of several reasons why finding the right kind of man for me was so hard. Most of them want kids.
Billy, IME, the real thing is almost never hard work, despite what all the "experts" say. You know it right away and you trust it. It flows like a river. Sure, sometimes there are rocks in the river, but you go over them pretty smoothly. I know, hindsight is wonderful. I am sorry you went through that. I wasted 12 years on a man who didn't believe in marriage. We all screw up. It's a learning process.
klutzo
In the interest of total honesty, which is always my policy, I have to say that my husband is not exactly like me, just very close to it. I am not a narcissist, so I don't want a mirror image....there would be no personal growth there.
He is not INFJ. He is ISFJ, but having seen many demonstrations of my wild predictions coming true, he trusts my N function most of the time, except when it is too pessimistic for him. He has a more sanguine temperament than I do. I am a melancholic type.
He is also a complete slob and I am a neatnik. As I said in my first post above, this is annoying as hell, and what TV's Dr. Phil calls "a deal breaker", but in his case, the part of his brain that handles organization and visual memory was damaged when he fell down the stairs and fractured his skull at two years old, so it is not his fault, and when I am about to go ballistic, I try to remind myself of that. Also, the only men I've ever met in my age group who were neat were either gay or had OCD!
I am glad I did not come off as a lecturing parental type. I could not have kids, one of several reasons why finding the right kind of man for me was so hard. Most of them want kids.
Billy, IME, the real thing is almost never hard work, despite what all the "experts" say. You know it right away and you trust it. It flows like a river. Sure, sometimes there are rocks in the river, but you go over them pretty smoothly. I know, hindsight is wonderful. I am sorry you went through that. I wasted 12 years on a man who didn't believe in marriage. We all screw up. It's a learning process.
klutzo
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You all think I am just a big robot or some rediculous shit.
acd
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I think he was trying to say some day you may meet someone who changes your mind about what a happy marriage is.. I actually interpret the post as, perhaps Ecton thinks that beneath that robotic and unfeeling exterior (that you project!) there's a big romantic softie.
So chill out homes.
So chill out homes.
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I like and agree with everything you said klutzo! Spoke like a mature INFJ, well put. I chose to stay on one point (something relevent for me right now), but my mind echoes many of the things you pointed out. I'll just say listen to her guys, she speaks the truth! Looks matter hardly at all once the years start rolling! Find someone you can spend time with and you will be far happier. I just came back from a vacation of sorts, so welcome klutzo and thanks for the words of wisdom!
Nah, Uber we love you! Speaking for myself, I've just seen men similar to you before and I give you, ohhhhhh.... say, 1-5 years, and you will be hit so hard with an arrow (from Cupid) that you might as well have "Whupped and Lovin' It" tattooed on your forehead.
Just relax, it'll be okay.
OshunsDaughter
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Yesterday, before I joined, my hubby and I discussed what you said klutzo is exactly true for us. I've been 'married' for 12 years so far; he is an intj. I asked him if his mbti changes and he said "no" but then quickly recanted the statement. Apparently he took it again recently and now he's more F, I just said that's because we've lived together for so long.
So he says, 'you F'ed me', and I fell out laughing. When I finally could breath, I said "well you T'ed me". Not as funny but true; for us our pairing is helping us both in the personal growth department.
Holden On
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Ha, funny!! :laugh::laugh:
MindYourHead
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X2!
I'm glad I read the whole thread because I would have essentially posted what klutzo did, though not nearly as eloquently.
I especially agree with what you said about thinking you knew it all at 20, and realizing at age 30 you didn't know squat.
My marriage of 12 years is my 2nd, and my wife's 3rd.
(I like to call my 1st one the practice marriage.)
Our marriage is quite strong, and it isn't hard work at all.
It just boils down to being respectful of each other, and having a very strong trust bond.
We rarely argue. Sure we have disagreements but keep things in perspective. Couples argue over what really are usually very trivial things.
Pick your battles carefully.
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klutzo
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Thanks to all for the kind words, and two more things...
Thanks to all who had such kind words for me about my post. When you get to be my age (59) you will probably be just as wise or far wiser. I am impressed with the maturity of most people on this forum. I am amazed by some of the posts I've read by 16 and 17 yr. olds who sound 30 in their maturity. Do you think this has to do with the strong N function that enables us to see through the bullcrap at a younger age?
I did forget two very important things that I had meant to say, forgetting being another part of getting old. Being female, I don't know if this applies to men, but I am as sure as I can be that it applies to women. So, this is mostly for the women, but any male reaction will be very interesting and welcomed.
1. If you are female and considering marrying someone, take a close look at how he treats his mother and how he talks about her. No matter what he says or how he acts before marriage, once you are married, his imprinted programing about marriage will kick in, and you will be treated exactly like he treats his mother, which will very likely resemble the way his father treats his mother.
Now of course you should make exception if the guy's mom is an axe murderer, or some other type where he has to run the other way to save himself, but if his mom is reasonably normal, this runs true.
Spending as much time with his family as possible is good too, since families, like individuals, can put on a facade for quite awhile, but eventually it breaks down and they go back to being who they really are. This one doesn't matter as much if your in-laws live 1,000 miles away. Then, you can visit once a year on Xmas, load up on valium to get through it, then heave a sigh of relief and get the hell out. But, if they live close by, it becomes very important, as seen in my own example below....
I made a huge mistake on this one in my current marriage. His family seemed like Ozzie and Harriet or Ward and June Cleaver, ie. too good to be true. Most of you are too young to know who those people are, but I can't think of any current TV families that are not dysfunctional, sorry. In reality, his father and his brother were serious mental cases (narcissists and envious pathological liars) and have made our lives miserable, eventually resulting in my husband's disinheritance and a complete break with them. But, his brother still lives right next door, and we can't afford to move. Talk about stressful! Thank God for six foot high solid wood fences. If I had spent more time with them before marriage, I would have figured it out, esp. with my training, and insisted on moving before the wedding, when we still had the money and our house had not lost 45% of it's value, like it has now. Like the cliche goes, knowledge is power.
2. No ladies, you CAN'T change him with your superior love. Maybe your generation has stopped this codependent nonsense, but I doubt it. Please tell me if I am wrong.....I very much want to be wrong on this one.
It is damn hard to change yourself, even one tiny bit. It takes all your self-discipline and years of work, and you have to want it really bad. You can't change anyone else and you can't love them into changing. They have to want it for themselves, and if they did, they would already have done it or be doing it when you met them.
If they do change for you, it will be temporary, and will wear off either when they are mad at you and want to show you who is boss, or when the being "in lust" phase wears off, whichever comes first. The "in lust" phase is biochemically a maximum of four years before the hormones that cause it return to normal. Mother Nature made it that way to ensure he sticks around to protect you until the child you've made is able to run from a predator. That is why the highest divorce rates occur in the 4th year of marriage. Cold, but true, and one more reason why our society needs to grow up about sex.
So, please don't lie to yourself and say that he'd be perfect for you if only ______ fill in the blank with the horrible, unacceptable trait. Run like hell, cause it ain't gonna change.
klutzo
Thanks to all who had such kind words for me about my post. When you get to be my age (59) you will probably be just as wise or far wiser. I am impressed with the maturity of most people on this forum. I am amazed by some of the posts I've read by 16 and 17 yr. olds who sound 30 in their maturity. Do you think this has to do with the strong N function that enables us to see through the bullcrap at a younger age?
I did forget two very important things that I had meant to say, forgetting being another part of getting old. Being female, I don't know if this applies to men, but I am as sure as I can be that it applies to women. So, this is mostly for the women, but any male reaction will be very interesting and welcomed.
1. If you are female and considering marrying someone, take a close look at how he treats his mother and how he talks about her. No matter what he says or how he acts before marriage, once you are married, his imprinted programing about marriage will kick in, and you will be treated exactly like he treats his mother, which will very likely resemble the way his father treats his mother.
Now of course you should make exception if the guy's mom is an axe murderer, or some other type where he has to run the other way to save himself, but if his mom is reasonably normal, this runs true.
Spending as much time with his family as possible is good too, since families, like individuals, can put on a facade for quite awhile, but eventually it breaks down and they go back to being who they really are. This one doesn't matter as much if your in-laws live 1,000 miles away. Then, you can visit once a year on Xmas, load up on valium to get through it, then heave a sigh of relief and get the hell out. But, if they live close by, it becomes very important, as seen in my own example below....
I made a huge mistake on this one in my current marriage. His family seemed like Ozzie and Harriet or Ward and June Cleaver, ie. too good to be true. Most of you are too young to know who those people are, but I can't think of any current TV families that are not dysfunctional, sorry. In reality, his father and his brother were serious mental cases (narcissists and envious pathological liars) and have made our lives miserable, eventually resulting in my husband's disinheritance and a complete break with them. But, his brother still lives right next door, and we can't afford to move. Talk about stressful! Thank God for six foot high solid wood fences. If I had spent more time with them before marriage, I would have figured it out, esp. with my training, and insisted on moving before the wedding, when we still had the money and our house had not lost 45% of it's value, like it has now. Like the cliche goes, knowledge is power.
2. No ladies, you CAN'T change him with your superior love. Maybe your generation has stopped this codependent nonsense, but I doubt it. Please tell me if I am wrong.....I very much want to be wrong on this one.
It is damn hard to change yourself, even one tiny bit. It takes all your self-discipline and years of work, and you have to want it really bad. You can't change anyone else and you can't love them into changing. They have to want it for themselves, and if they did, they would already have done it or be doing it when you met them.
If they do change for you, it will be temporary, and will wear off either when they are mad at you and want to show you who is boss, or when the being "in lust" phase wears off, whichever comes first. The "in lust" phase is biochemically a maximum of four years before the hormones that cause it return to normal. Mother Nature made it that way to ensure he sticks around to protect you until the child you've made is able to run from a predator. That is why the highest divorce rates occur in the 4th year of marriage. Cold, but true, and one more reason why our society needs to grow up about sex.
So, please don't lie to yourself and say that he'd be perfect for you if only ______ fill in the blank with the horrible, unacceptable trait. Run like hell, cause it ain't gonna change.
klutzo
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I'm sorry I think this is off. That is totally not true. Especially if someone has had a psychotic mother. I was with someone for 8 years and I treated her like gold, my relationship with my mother is strained, but not because I treat her like shit, but because she is crazy and losing her mind. I refuse to believe that because she is that way I am somehow now only ever going to treat a woman I love like she is crazy and avoid her and find ways to insulate her destructive forces. Some mothers are good people, but not always great mothers. And thank god Dad was there to pull us out of the projects she was living in with us addicted to drugs.
So if I get a little anxious around her and snap at her because she knows how to emotionally manipulate me in a way no one else can, that's probably to be expected, its not as simple as "watch how he treats his mother" that is so black and white.Being around my mother is like an emotional black hole she literally sucks me dry and makes me want to run screaming, i still sit there and take it though because i love her and she is my mother, but to tell women to look at how he treats his mother and use that as the decider into how he is going to be in a relationship, i'm sorry... I disagree. sorry for ruining the fun, as you were.
Broken Beggar
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...is there such a thing? If there is, they're super rare.