What Is Your Idol?

[Asa]

Quite. You also don’t have to recognize or honor boundaries, or even think about consent if everyone is below your imagined and desired destiny.

Possibly. It can be the opposite, too. Everyone has their own set of unspoken "laws" they expect others to follow despite never communicating expectations because the world revolves are "me" in much the same way the sun revolves around Earth.

I just thought about happiness. Does a given person define that for themself, or do they make a culturally-validated standard of the good life their North Star?

Yes.
Happiness is a philosophical idea.

None of these - they all let us down, in the end, on their own.

Peace is where my compass points. To have peace is god-like, but I've done no more than glimpse it .... yet there it is, always, deep down. It's just that all the noise drowns it out.

As I understand it, the challenge is to find where you get snagged in life and once you figure that out and fix it, you will find peace and/or happiness. It's a question a professor asks graduate students so they grow to understand how their paths are flawed. I'm not surprised your answer is peace. <3

 

[John K]

As I understand it, the challenge is to find where you get snagged in life and once you figure that out and fix it, you will find peace and/or happiness. It's a question a professor asks graduate students so they grow to understand how their paths are flawed. I'm not surprised your answer is peace. <3

I’ve played with all except fame in my time, still do. They can be good servants but rotten masters - we perhaps can only each discover this viscerally through experience.

Fame is more a demon than an an idol for me - I’d rather be ‘a pair of ragged claws scuttling across the floors of silent seas’. .

 

[Wyote]

Coooooooooooooooooooookies
No wait, cupcakes.

 

[Asa]

I’ve played with all except fame in my time, still do. They can be good servants but rotten masters - we perhaps can only each discover this viscerally through experience.

So well said.

Fame is more a demon than an an idol for me - I’d rather be ‘a pair of ragged claws scuttling across the floors of silent seas’. .

Ahhhhahaha. Fantastic analogy.

Someone else who was asked this question said the same about pleasure being a demon because they were using it to run away from problems.

I think when younger I would have naively replied, "None," because I didn't see what I was doing as pleasure. I was searching for depth and meaning. Art is pleasure, music is pleasure, and I find pleasure in searching for depth and meaning. Hahahaha. At this stage, I think I understand happiness. Pleasure means something different. (It's still about depth and meaning but broader.)

 

[Asa]

Coooooooooooooooooooookies

But also.....

 

[aeon]

Everyone has their own set of unspoken "laws" they expect others to follow despite never communicating expectations because the world revolves are "me" in much the same way the sun revolves around Earth.

The first time I ever expressed that idea to Stephanie, she was genuinely gobsmacked, excited, and relieved that there was a simple metaphor for something she had experienced all her life, but had no name for or way to think clearly about it.

Happiness is a philosophical idea.

Because of my medical adventures, I now always experience some degree of pain. That said, I found a way to be happy within that experience, even when pleasure, power, money, and fame are nowhere to be found. I will just say that when you are bedbound for months, the amount of self-work you can do, the possibility for digging within—there’s a lot of time and opportunity.

When my idols were absent, and I was relieved of distraction, I discovered something about myself—that for me, happiness is a choice. There is the possibility for me to accept the without, and find a place within, where equanimity makes it possible for me to make the choice. I think I discovered that in physical therapy, with my decomposing body suspended in a sling, delirious from the pain and dysautonomia. The electric fire of nerves, if they do not obliterate you, provide a certain clarity when used as a focus of attention.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Wyote]

I think I have trouble answering this in a serious way because they all feel interconnected.
They all feel more like instruments than idols to me.
They are all idolized to some degree at different times.

 

[Asa]

Because of my medical adventures, I now always experience some degree of pain. That said, I found a way to be happy within that experience, even when pleasure, power, money, and fame are nowhere to be found. I will just say that when you are bedbound for months, the amount of self-work you can do, the possibility for digging within—there’s a lot of time and opportunity.

I understand.

happiness is a choice.

Yes, it is.

I think I discovered that in physical therapy, with my decomposing body suspended in a sling, delirious from the pain and dysautonomia.

I think I have trouble answering this in a serious way because they all feel interconnected.
They all feel more like instruments than idols to me.
They are all idolized to some degree at different times.

That's why you need to do the exercise backward and think about which ones you'd give up first. Your answer can change, too. It isn't a stagnant test.

 

[Wyote]

That's why you need to do the exercise backward and think about which ones you'd give up first. Your answer can change, too. It isn't a stagnant test.

Right, I still have a tough time for said reasons.
I suppose currently it's power for me. It seems more heavily tied to having an ability to involve the others effectively/comfortably.
But I also have zero interest in power really.

 

[mintoots]

You seem to be torn about whether or not pleasure is fulfilling for you. If life is stressful, a little escapism can act as a pressure release and that is good for you. If pleasure isn't fulfilling, how could you live a more fulfilling life? (You don't have to tell us, that can be an internal conversation if you want.)

I don't know why you'd give up your favorite dessert. Why not give up something you enjoy less if you need more balance and splurge on that one dessert?

I stated the dessert as an example. I ran through the list of idols but pleasure was the only one that emerged as a necessity to me. It was the only one that could hinge my entity together. My daily decisions are driven by my audacity to seek it.

I don't actively seek money all the time, but I would when I need it. I would often need it to pursue pleasure or power. I don't actively seek power and fame but it comes to me as a by-product of working with people, which I find immense fulfillment in. If ask myself why I work in my field, it is because I find pleasure in creating systems for people and of raising people. It is this pleasure that I wish to protect whenever I seek money and power. At the crux of it all is my pursuit for pleasure.

*Fame here to me is just acknowledgement from the people I work with. Not celebrity levels. Power is not it for me, but I would say that I know how to wield it and seek it. In a sense, I seek power because I can gain pleasure through it. But power in and of itself is irrelevant to me.

 

[Sidis Coruscatis]

You're one of the few people on this forum who seems to reject the western ideal of individualism.

The term is a bit murky. I believe in the sovereignty of individual, as in being dealt with as an individual and not as a mere extension of your identity markers. But when you take individualism in its most extreme and pathological version, you get a strange self-cannibalizing collectivism. The problem is that even if you disavow externally imposed definitions and hierarchies, you still exist in a society, which is intrinsically a structure of hierarchies. So now you have to establish a pecking order of loosely clustered narcissists who are not beholden to any objective standard of truth, are de facto solipsistic and their identity is more or less arbitrarily self-defined, so it's in a constant state of potential antagonism. From an American-centric perspective, the cells of radical left seem to have done this by putting the extent of your victimhood, which is unstable and practically inscrutable even to themselves for the aforementioned reasons, as the metric for your merit. There are other cells, like the anti-commitment workaholic career climbers, but they are not nearly as peculiar.

Individualism is the best way to become a prey for political machinations, because when you cut off your family, refuse to make sacrifices for a relationship or accept some responsibility for your community, what are you going to do when your social instinct starts to loom over you? If you don't cap yourself off first from wandering all that meaningless empty desert, you subscribe to whoever and anything just to have some sense of belonging. But if you take a more rural version of individualism, you tend to function within small communities that are self-reliant and therefore exist as an isolated micro-culture by itself.

Respect/esteem

I guess that's a good way to put it. Respect is often a consequence of being competent though, which is itself the best way to achieve autonomy and empowerment (as opposed to relying on legislated freedoms and casting away of strict moral restraints). The difference is that one seeks to be constrained and to master that condition, and the other is only taking away obstacles. Again, it's expecting more versus expecting less of you, and I strongly believe it's the former that actually catalyzes people to better life satisfaction.

 

[Wyote]

Coooooooooooooooooooookies

Update: I made some
View attachment 88916

 

[uuu]

Yes, taking a step back, I am curious about the motivation for the four idol categories presented in the OP—are these canonical to a specific religious tradition, or @Asa's own creation? Not that there's anything wrong with it in the latter case. But just like personality typology itself, anytime you frame a question as a discrete choice, you preclude certain types of responses, e.g. those that straddle categories or sit entirely outside the system.

And there is a danger of the choices, although presented as belonging to a common category, actually belong to different categories entirely. As others have pointed out, while there are plenty of people who idolize power, money, and fame on their own, for many others these things are instruments to achieve pleasure, in which case it isn't clear how to answer.

For a traditional taxonomy of idols, we could look to something like the Catholic "seven deadly sins" (gluttony, avarice etc.), or the circles of hell from Dante.

 

[just me]

While I do not see anything as an idol for me, I worship God. I feel life as gifts, and praise his wisdom. Life can be wonderful: all sorts of life. Love is without a doubt part of life. Because I believe God is love, Love is what I worship.

 

[aeon]

But just like personality typology itself, anytime you frame a question as a discrete choice, you preclude certain types of responses, e.g. those that straddle categories or sit entirely outside the system.

As a Ne-dom, I took pleasure in the idols @Asa selected, because I could simply consider what had been presented, and the internal “but what about...” peanut gallery could STFU for a little while.

Working within limits, even arbitrary ones, engages more of the brain.

The limit of the context is key to the utility of the question. Your choices, within the context, is the reveal.

Is your questioning of the premise a reflection of your need to remain a mystery, per your post made the other day?

Curious,
Ian

 

[uuu]

Is your questioning of the premise a reflection of your need to remain a mystery, per your post made the other day?

Haha, nothing that deep—I'm just task-switching between INFJs and a programming project, so I'm in a headspace that has me thinking very carefully about mapping out the space of what's possible and trying to choose labels that cover every edge case while overlapping minimally amongst themselves.

And I wouldn't say I'm "questioning the premise" either—I think the premise of engaging in introspection about our vices and idols is a good thing, and the presented categories don't have to represent an ideal taxonomy in order to function as fodder for this introspective question. But I also just like talking about different taxonomical systems—surely, like anyone who is drawn to the MBTI system and personality typology?—and it's an interesting thing to consider what a good taxonomical breakdown of idolatries would look like.

 

[Asa]

Yes, taking a step back, I am curious about the motivation for the four idol categories presented in the OP—are these canonical to a specific religious tradition, or @Asa's own creation? Not that there's anything wrong with it in the former case. But just like personality typology itself, anytime you frame a question as a discrete choice, you preclude certain types of responses, e.g. those that straddle categories or sit entirely outside the system.

I didn't invent the list or question. It's based on Thomas Aquinas' list of "replacements for god". Arthur Brooks asks his Harvard Business School students this question. It's about realizing what your personal hang-ups are for achieving satisfaction and happiness in life. People often fail to feel fulfilled or "happy" after achieving major life goals. He does some interesting mental experiments with his students to set them up for more successful and happier lives. For example, he also does a ritual with them to eradicate their fear of failure. It's based on the Buddhist monk practice of standing in front of the deceased and saying, "That is me." He does a whole thing: "I'm failing class. My classmates are more successful than I. I'm a disappointment to my parents, etc." By the end of the exercise students theoretically overcome crippling fears of failure.

While I do not see anything as an idol for me, I worship God. I feel life as gifts, and praise his wisdom. Life can be wonderful: all sorts of life. Love is without a doubt part of life. Because I believe God is love, Love is what I worship.

Of course. <3
This is just about realizing what hurdles may stand in the way. What distracts you from God?


I'll be back later to reply to everyone.

 

[Rit4lin]

Intriguing thread. If I had to order them in what I prioritise, to my individual meaning:
1. Pleasure
2. Fame
3. Power
4. Money

With pleasure I am grouping in anything from food I enjoy, activities to engage in, love for my family, friends and partner to a wheezing laugh when I am spending time with my mates. A life without such experiences and fulfilment - without relationships - is not one worth living (for me). Such focus has made me pretty damn happy, and I couldn't imagine going forwards without some of the people in my life or the connections which have been established. The only funny part is I am dogshit at keeping in contact with people heueheuh
This then has a mutual relationship with what fame is to me. It is being held in high regard and trust by those I hold important, and the perception which follows. Yet it also is partly due to how my career aspirations do not involve monetary gain, nor even that of power. I want to be of use to the community and be of public service, which is why I have a pretty tunnel-vision approach to one day becoming a detective and/or government official. With such comes a 'fame' of a different sort, which I suppose is something I seek more than what could be associated if I were to just go for something which paid me the most possible, in sacrifice of everything else.

Power, pretty good. Can be useful I suppose, but it isn't a major concern of mine. I might end up wielding some throughout my lifetime, but it isn't something I actively strive for. Its benefits will primarily be community-focused, and by extension allow for me to use it to a certain extent to possibly benefit/protect those I care for.
Money is just money. Doesn't really mean shit. I had access to a life-changing amount last year, only for it to be taken away in combination with a familial loss. Probably the most sobering experience of my life. I didn't give a shit for the money. I recognise its function and use, especially as I'm in that cliche stage of having youth and time but no money, but I don't care for it.
If we were still in the gold standard then I would care, because issa pretty

Spoiler

 

[Asa]

I stated the dessert as an example.

I understand.
You're also one of a few here whom I believe is driven by a sense of duty. I see pleasure balancing the selflessness of duty for you. Even the way you say your, "Daily decisions are driven by my audacity to seek it." signals to me that duty is your primary mode, even if pleasure is your "idol". What is an idol, right? There are so many avenues to pursue and thoughts to divide with the answer to that question. It means what you value most, what you invest in, but could also mean "false idol"... something you put too much weight in, rely on too much for your fulfillment. What you do with the info has to do with how you feel internally about your answers. <3

*Fame here to me is just acknowledgement from the people I work with. Not celebrity levels. Power is not it for me, but I would say that I know how to wield it and seek it. In a sense, I seek power because I can gain pleasure through it. But power in and of itself is irrelevant to me.

That's how I think of fame, too. It's really appealing to me to be respected by friends, family, and in my profession. I couldn't handle celebrity-level fame.

With pleasure I am grouping in anything from food I enjoy, activities to engage in, love for my family, friends and partner to a wheezing laugh when I am spending time with my mates. A life without such experiences and fulfilment - without relationships - is not one worth living (for me). Such focus has made me pretty damn happy, and I couldn't imagine going forwards without some of the people in my life or the connections which have been established. The only funny part is I am dogshit at keeping in contact with people heueheuh
This then has a mutual relationship with what fame is to me. It is being held in high regard and trust by those I hold important, and the perception which follows. Yet it also is partly due to how my career aspirations do not involve monetary gain, nor even that of power. I want to be of use to the community and be of public service, which is why I have a pretty tunnel-vision approach to one day becoming a detective and/or government official. With such comes a 'fame' of a different sort, which I suppose is something I seek more than what could be associated if I were to just go for something which paid me the most possible, in sacrifice of everything else.

You and Min seem to have a lot in common in many ways and both have a solid sense of duty and selflessness.

It's interesting to read how you have two avenues for pleasure, fun and (deeper) fulfillment.

[Power] can be useful I suppose, but it isn't a major concern of mine. I might end up wielding some throughout my lifetime, but it isn't something I actively strive for. Its benefits will primarily be community-focused, and by extension allow for me to use it to a certain extent to possibly benefit/protect those I care for.

The best leaders don't seek power.

I guess that's a good way to put it. Respect is often a consequence of being competent though, which is itself the best way to achieve autonomy and empowerment (as opposed to relying on legislated freedoms and casting away of strict moral restraints). The difference is that one seeks to be constrained and to master that condition, and the other is only taking away obstacles. Again, it's expecting more versus expecting less of you, and I strongly believe it's the former that actually catalyzes people to better life satisfaction.

I don't agree that respect automatically follows competence. I've seen this play out differently too many times and for too many reasons. In an ideal world, it should. I do agree that expecting more (of you) catalyzes people to better life satisfaction.

 

[ErikAlberto]

What is your idol? Money, Pleasure, Fame, or Power?

At this point in my life, I’d say these are things that I try not to idolize.

When my will weakens and I tire of enduring the pain of facing myself, I most often acquiesce to seeking some form of pleasure to make me feel better. Sweets are my biggest weakness. The American Cookie Co., in particular.

Also, sometimes when I self-reflect and scrutinize my motives about something I’ve done or said, I’ll discover that I’ve not acted out of love, as I intended. I find that I have unconsciously acted out of a desire for power, to some degree or another.

I’m hardly beyond being tempted by fame or money, as well.