Why do you forgive?

[Feelings]

Perhaps this objective fairness is what gives INTJs more friends in the long run than us.

You clearly aren't experienced with INTJs. IMO, most of them are not objective. They are more interested in proving that they are right, than actually being right. They use their logic skills to backwards rationalize and are unaware of their emotional drivers.

 

[acd]

My counselor wants me to forgive the people who have hurt me most recently. I just want to get away from the friends who have violated me emotionally. I feel like a loser with nothing more to give to that friend, as if that friendship was worthless. Maybe I don't want to forgive because forgiveness means I might have to start hanging out with him again. Maybe it means I can move on and be at peace. I don't know. Whatever it is, I'd rather not bother with it right now. Does forgiveness mean I'm wrong, too?

It isn't easy to forgive someone. It's certainly not as simple as just saying the words. I've said it so many times before, and deluded myself into believing I meant it.
You have to want to be free of the resentment you hold for that person. You have to be willing to finish with your judging of them. It is a humbling process, in that sense.

If you don't forgive, you bind yourself to that pain.

I don't think that you have to hang out with that person in order to forgive them.
It's up to you to decide if this person is toxic or not.
Forcing yourself to hang out with someone you don't truly forgive isn't going to help you or anyone else.

Why do I forgive? Because like I said, if I don't, I'm bound to the pain I experienced. That is why I voted "You're only hurting yourself if you don't."

Pain like everything else comes and goes... unless we choose to cling to it. Observe your emotions and let them pass.
And as others have already pointed out-- holding onto that resentment breeds negativity that seeps in deep, nourishing a root of bitterness in you..
And that will affect your other relationships with people for the worse..

In my life, there have been two people I have had to struggle with forgiving.
One was an ex-fiance (this was years ago) Finally, I had an epiphany and it occurred to me that:

"I'm still letting that person hurt me, and they aren't even here. I'm hurting me. I'm consumed with anger, and I need to let it go."
In that instance, forgiving that person also required me to face my own faults and work on overcoming them.. and it didn't happen overnight.. It was a process.

Another was my dad. And it took 26 years. I had thought I had forgiven him each time I said the words to myself throughout the years, but I never meant it until I was able to accept that he would never be the dad I wanted him to be.. but that we could have a relationship anyway because I loved him regardless.

In resenting my dad, I was hurting myself (and him) because I really wanted to love him. So I had to give up my demands and accept him.
In regards to my ex, I was holding onto the resentment, and hurting myself when I really wanted to be free of his memory and influence over me so that I could move on.

I guess what I'm being all long winded about is that refusing to forgive only holds you back.. not the other person.

 

[knight in battle]

You clearly aren't experienced with INTJs. IMO, most of them are not objective. They are more interested in proving that they are right, than actually being right. They use their logic skills to backwards rationalize and are unaware of their emotional drivers.

In truth I do know one INTJ who has said that he has fallen into the pattern of proving himself correct as opposed to empathizing.

 

[knight in battle]

[MENTION=564]acd[/MENTION]
[Long-windedness is practically required; that is just how we are; emotional precision and nuance are more important than conciseness.]

I can see that you have had a similar experience with your father as I did. I did forgive mine also but in increments. It was a definite choice made with tears and with each subsequent choice to forgive him, it became easier and sweeter.

I feel that we have come to the same conclusion in regard to how we would like best to forgive: It seems best to forgive by letting go of the pain and judgment. It appears that judgment is what continues to fuel the Judge-Offender relationship. For if I discontinue the Judge role, there would no longer be this kind of relationship, which then frees me from anymore of the pain that comes with it.

Incidentally, it seems that critical people receive the same kind of fuel for their power position --- essentially the same Judge-Offender relationship. As long as the victim continues to categorize himself in the Victim/Unacceptable role (as defined by the Critic and agreed upon by the recipient), he continues to feel low self-esteem, resentful, and unacceptable according to the critic's chosen standards. But if the recipient no longer agrees with the underlying, often unspoken standard for critique, he becomes a unique, independent individual free and neutral from evaluation. Retaliation or "objection", however, is essentially a way of agreeing with the critic's standard of evaluation --- an agreement to enter into a (disadvantageous) relationship with the critic. Very subtle. Very unspoken.

"Turning the tables" so that the original critic is now in the light of evaluation according to the same/different standard may be worthwhile in some cases but, in this case, the original recipient of criticism has already presumed that not only was the critic's standard correct but also that the original critic was correct to criticize and accuse in the first place. The only way to disagree is to neutralize and re-assume the original self (unevaluated by the criticism and without connection to the him).

 

[Trifoilum]

Mmmph.
Sometimes I don't -want- to forgive. Sometimes I feel like I should forgive.

There are these fears; what happens after forgiveness? Will the pain stop? Or it's just a start of a new cycle? Why should I; if they have no plans to change?
Sometimes withholding forgiveness feels sweet; oh so hellishly sweet, to avoid meeting them, to avoid the pain, to-- justify the pain and the injustice and the hurt I am about to receive and I am about to give. To justify playing.
Not because of forgiveness itself; but by forgiving, I dumped the bucket. There should be-- nothing. No hurt, no pain; just lessons and memories.

And sometimes it feels like having no grudge is as binding as being filled with grudge.
It -should- be peaceful; in a way, it is.
But it is also empty.

So fucked up.

 

[storm eyes]

I forgive because I am a giver, if people are close to me I can't not forgive them because I see beyond that one action, I also try to take into account not everyone is as sensitive as me about certain things, that they process actions and feelings differently. It makes me much more guarded for awhile afterwards, I am trying to be guarded with an INFP who hurt me deeply... or did I hurt myself deeply?

 

[magister343]

I generally don't take offense in the first place so I won't have anything to forgive.

 

[Peppermint]

My counselor wants me to forgive the people who have hurt me most recently. I just want to get away from the friends who have violated me emotionally. I feel like a loser with nothing more to give to that friend, as if that friendship was worthless. Maybe I don't want to forgive because forgiveness means I might have to start hanging out with him again. Maybe it means I can move on and be at peace. I don't know. Whatever it is, I'd rather not bother with it right now. Does forgiveness mean I'm wrong, too?

I think your counselor is wrong.

Forgiveness isn't something you just go out and "do". It's something that comes by itself, after the grudges have faded. You don't forgive to relinquish the anger, it's the opposite. Forcing yourself to forgive will likely feel more like you are validating the person who wronged you.

 

[Korg]

It helps if you can understand why they did what they did. Not as a way to excuse it, but to explain it (if possible). Once you see how their behavior stems from brokenness and suffering, it can help you to let go of the injustice.

The person I've had the most difficulty forgiving in my life was a survivor of sexual abuse (I think), neglect, poverty and all-around mistreatment while growing up. Their behavior was neurotic and crippled me in some ways and I had an incredible amount of anger about that. Over the years, I've come to realize this person was just really damaged and, in a sick way, didn't want me to become damaged as well. Again, that doesn't excuse it but it explains it which makes it easier for me to forgive. Understanding goes a long way.

 

[Stu]

False You're only hurting yourself if you don't.
True You can't sustain any relationships without forgiveness.
Misleading Forgiveness is the 2nd most precious gift you offer to people.
obviously stupid HELL no! I'm standing my ground. He's the one who screwed me over!
misleading I'm not religious, so there's nothing to forgive.
off the point If you want a better world, people should be free, even if they hurt you sometimes.
off the point She violated my trust. She messed with my emotions. She is out of my mind and out of my life!
No comment Why do keep making ME the guilty one?? I did nothing wrong!

 

[christmas]

i have to forgive. it stops the homicidal thoughts.

 

[acd]

I suppose [MENTION=1939]Stu[/MENTION] is right. Not forgiving someone can hurt them. It depends on if they feel they need to be forgiven in that case. That excess baggage also hurts others who you may try to have relationships with or who are involved. But I don't think you can truly forgive someone based on that. It has to come from the individual being willing to let go.

 

[Phebe]

This is a great discussion, and I wish I'd seen it sooner.

My take: We have to forgive. Not to become doormats, and not because it's the right thing to do, but because we end up becoming worse for wear if we don't. If someone wrongs us, and we've taken steps to reconcile the situation but they still hold to their anger (or we our own anger), then we need to try and break from that pattern of thinking so it doesn't destroy us. People have been in family fights for years and have hated their own family members because of an incident that may have happened when they were young. Can we really hold grudges against children? Should we? When we recognize that everyone is at different points in their lives and they may not be mature enough to be forgiving (or to be forgiven), then the playing field changes.

Maybe we should see those who hold grudges against us as not having the maturity level to be forgiven, so we should treat them as we would an angry six-year-old. Or, if we hold the grudges, can we forgive ourselves for not being mature enough to accept someone's forgiveness--? Maybe that's an odd way of thinking about it, but I say if it helps try it.

 

[knight in battle]

Forcing yourself to forgive will likely feel more like you are validating the person who wronged you.

You're right. I usually forget to validate my own feelings of being manipulated, controlled, or insulted. But the validation usually requires more than just writing it down in a private journal but also that someone else is listening to it. I usually need someone to bounce the ideas off of. And once someone validates those feelings, I am able to move forward and create that emotional wall without shutting the door to new relationships.

 

[buttercup]

Religious reasons and it just feels right.

 

[Feelings]

Religious reasons and it just feels right.

Religious reasons and what feels right are often in conflict with each other.

 

[buttercup]

Religious reasons and what feels right are often in conflict with each other.

Often but not always.

 

[Billy]

Forgiveness is good for you, it puts you to rest, that being said, just because you forgive someone doesn't mean you have to trust them again too.

 

[knight in battle]

Forgiveness is good for you, it puts you to rest, that being said, just because you forgive someone doesn't mean you have to trust them again too.

What exactly is meant by forgiving? I can see it doesn't mean reconciliation or trusting. Some have suggesting it means "letting go", but this is a bit vague.

 

[knight in battle]

Over the years, I've come to realize this person was just really damaged and, in a sick way, didn't want me to become damaged as well. Again, that doesn't excuse it but it explains it which makes it easier for me to forgive. Understanding goes a long way.

I've heard that it's more compassionate to remove yourself from people who are in this situation if you're obviously being hurt by them or don't feel comfortable around them.