Ren
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Why don't INFJs fit into society
- Thread starter grapefruit
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ISTJs are like, "I feel well done!"
Hello everyone, I'm new here and I've just read through this thread and wanted to share my thoughts. Right now there are three aspects of "not fitting in" that come to my mind, from my own experience:
First, I'm both rational-analytical and social-emotional, and that has caused problems at my workplaces in the past. I'm good at science, but I'm also good at languages and psychology. What people usually don't get is that one can be "both", with the result that the "real" rational-analytical people think I'm too feeling-orientated and un-rational, whereas the people with the soft skills think I'm too "hard" and rational. Most people I worked with probably thought that I was not doing my job properly. But all I ever wanted was to combine both, and I had a hard time until I found colleagues who appreciated that. (At the moment I'm self-employed and much happier!) Having said that, unless you're a genius (which I am not), of course you will neither be 100% rational-analytical nor 100% social-emotional, so maybe I can't do any job "properly".
Second, there is the ever-present "superficial conversations" problem ... Latest example: I went to see some people the other day. (Now that I'm working from home office I know that I have to take care not to become too isolated, although most of the time I'm fine with that.) You can talk to me about almost anything, as long as there is a bit of depth to it. So, someone in that group brought up the topic "star signs" and asked everybody about their birthday and whether they thought the description of their particular star sign applied to them. As far as I'm concerned, I don't really believe in star signs but I have thought a lot about it in the past, and I think if there is any truth to it, it must be because of early childhood development processes and formative experiences in a particular climate (and hence the place of birth becomes important, too) and people in the past simply associated that with the stars in the sky. – Anyway, these were the thoughts I happily communicated to that small group of people who had gathered there to do some flower repotting together. AND I could almost instantly FEEL how their brains shut down.
Ooops ...
And then the topic changed to something else, and then I was both bored and pissed off, because I could have stayed at home getting work done but had decided to get out and talk to people instead.
To cut a long story short, there are very very few people in my life with whom I can share my theories, niche interests or taste in music/books/films etc., and most of the time when I go out and meet people I don't feel connected.
Third, it's a matter of time. I have the impression that most people are not willing to spend time and energy to "ruminate", they live a fast-paced work and private life.
First, I'm both rational-analytical and social-emotional, and that has caused problems at my workplaces in the past. I'm good at science, but I'm also good at languages and psychology. What people usually don't get is that one can be "both", with the result that the "real" rational-analytical people think I'm too feeling-orientated and un-rational, whereas the people with the soft skills think I'm too "hard" and rational. Most people I worked with probably thought that I was not doing my job properly. But all I ever wanted was to combine both, and I had a hard time until I found colleagues who appreciated that. (At the moment I'm self-employed and much happier!) Having said that, unless you're a genius (which I am not), of course you will neither be 100% rational-analytical nor 100% social-emotional, so maybe I can't do any job "properly".
Second, there is the ever-present "superficial conversations" problem ... Latest example: I went to see some people the other day. (Now that I'm working from home office I know that I have to take care not to become too isolated, although most of the time I'm fine with that.) You can talk to me about almost anything, as long as there is a bit of depth to it. So, someone in that group brought up the topic "star signs" and asked everybody about their birthday and whether they thought the description of their particular star sign applied to them. As far as I'm concerned, I don't really believe in star signs but I have thought a lot about it in the past, and I think if there is any truth to it, it must be because of early childhood development processes and formative experiences in a particular climate (and hence the place of birth becomes important, too) and people in the past simply associated that with the stars in the sky. – Anyway, these were the thoughts I happily communicated to that small group of people who had gathered there to do some flower repotting together. AND I could almost instantly FEEL how their brains shut down.
Ooops ... And then the topic changed to something else, and then I was both bored and pissed off, because I could have stayed at home getting work done but had decided to get out and talk to people instead.
To cut a long story short, there are very very few people in my life with whom I can share my theories, niche interests or taste in music/books/films etc., and most of the time when I go out and meet people I don't feel connected.
Third, it's a matter of time. I have the impression that most people are not willing to spend time and energy to "ruminate", they live a fast-paced work and private life.
Reverist
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AND I could almost instantly FEEL how their brains shut down.
And then the topic changed to something else, and then I was both bored and pissed off, because I could have stayed at home getting work done but had decided to get out and talk to people instead
I have felt this so many times. Its a big reason I feel so awkward speaking to people with whom I don't have a strong connection. I'm always afraid I'll say the wrong thing and kill the conversation, but at the same time I am dying to be social and join in the conversation. Most of the time I just don't say anything, and then I get the "why are you so quiet" thing.
Also, welcome to the forum! I hope you enjoy your time here
heartcore
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I guess it's meant that INFJs may not feel mentally or emotionally fitting in, but upon taking a role in a society we do manage to fit in quite easily. There's a common misconception that INFJs are typically social misfits, but INFJs are not really social misfits if you look through most people's perspectives, at least not until serious inspection or a lot of time spent around us. INFJs only feel that we are misfits internally and even people in our lives may not know this at all. It's like you're a great stage actor who are very well-versed in pretending to be someone else. I call this a "weirdo within" symptom, lol.
Rigdonb
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Frikin weirdoes if ya ask me.
I sometimes don't realize that people need more explanation of what I'm talking about. I kind of take things for given or obvious.
Unless someone requests my input they generally don't want to know that stuff.
At some point, I think it was the extacy, My brain connected to my mouth. Not everyone sees it as interesting.
WHERES THAT COOL SOCIABLE GUY WE INVITED TO THE PARTY??? Ringbob the CSR guy is a shallow, though entertaining person.
When I start talking about social concepts people say "Are you trying to tell me something?" I think subconsciously I might be.
Secretly, I relate to parts of INFP, but I think it might just be because I score very high turbulence. Can you still love me?
I sometimes don't realize that people need more explanation of what I'm talking about. I kind of take things for given or obvious.
Unless someone requests my input they generally don't want to know that stuff.
At some point, I think it was the extacy, My brain connected to my mouth. Not everyone sees it as interesting.
WHERES THAT COOL SOCIABLE GUY WE INVITED TO THE PARTY??? Ringbob the CSR guy is a shallow, though entertaining person.
When I start talking about social concepts people say "Are you trying to tell me something?" I think subconsciously I might be.
Secretly, I relate to parts of INFP, but I think it might just be because I score very high turbulence. Can you still love me?
- MBTI
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- MBTI
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- 954 so/sx
I guess it's meant that INFJs may not feel mentally or emotionally fitting in, but upon taking a role in a society we do manage to fit in quite easily. There's a common misconception that INFJs are typically social misfits, but INFJs are not really social misfits if you look through most people's perspectives, at least not until serious inspection or a lot of time spent around us. INFJs only feel that we are misfits internally and even people in our lives may not know this at all. It's like you're a great stage actor who are very well-versed in pretending to be someone else. I call this a "weirdo within" symptom, lol.
Very accurate
Roses In The Vineyard
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I don't know how life is for most but deep down I know that some of us really don't have a place in society for so many reasons and trying to fit in no matter the cost is just too much.
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There's a big difference between being percieved as not fitting in vs feeling like you don't fit in. Both are problems that most people face from time to time. If it is more than just a rough phase then the onus is on you to sort shit out or live a life of self inflicted suffering.
Rigdonb
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GOD IKR I feel the same, but even meaner and less accepting....
Lolol
Rigdonb
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Here's the deal. You don't want their acceptance. You want to create a person that they generally enjoy or at least can understand. Your joy is likely being able see and understand things that are constructed from more data than you even realize. If I understand right and my experience is similar, then we absorb all of this while interacting with people. We need them for input. At some point, possibly days later, everything that was said and experienced falls into place and you'll come to understand something that you can apply to the situation or maybe people in general. That's when you take this slice of fried gold back to your buddy. It will help them and satisfy your urge to apply your cool little revelation.
They are good people in general. but their thought processes are more straight forward and tend towards short term or preconceived frames. Life is simpler to them, but at the same time can be inadequate for some of the complexities of life. Your insight can help. All they have to do is take your advice or grasp a better understanding of an issue and bam! That would be a fulfilling interaction. Then these dodo heads Can't grasp it or are in denial or just plain refusal.. It's not acceptance of you as a person or that you don't have place in society. It's that they dismiss something they need and you are built to provide. They just need to understand that the ability to live day to day and function well in the grind is their talent, but it would benefit us all by applying our ideas and vision to real life.
That;s what I understand to be our frustration. Not that they don't accept us or that we don't have a role.They don't even know us, which is fine. They just can't see how we have something important that's missing from the equation. We all suffer for it. Lack of true long term vision and not having the depth of understanding has put us into a increasingly tragic position. Buncha knuckleheads.
I love people. I just feel like they blind to a degree, but by golly they are doing stuff! woooooooooooooooooooo!
I really don't mean that in a condescending or superior way either. It's like we're each good at our part, but the mechanical engineer has decided bio engineering ain't that hard.
My two least favorite pieces of advice...I'm about to let everyone know how ill informed these advices are...and everyone is going to scoff, because everyone has accepted them as just given..... JUST BE YOURSELF. What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Are you retarded? Just go ahead and be whatever dipshit you feel like so we can all suffer? BAD...NO. Number two. MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS! Oh....solid advice...EXCEPT YOUr BUSINESS KEEPS GETTING ALL OVER MY BUSINESS ASSHOLE!!!!! BAD...bad...BAD!!!! b a d. NO NO
It's not for fame or recognition or even money. Dysfunction. Ignorant, short sighted leaders. I'll happily sit over here poor as fuck as long as donald duck and captain kangaroo arent considered our very very veriest best
PS. :finger:
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Rigdonb
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I feel I have two spirits...like those little angel and devil guys that hang out on your shoulder giving confidential advice
One is Jesus the other is the Anti-Christ
They both have valid arguments
Metaphors and visuals are cool.
I have to out absurd the world or I lose faith.
For instance, when people don't understand how somebody can say they are "great" but then actually turn out "not great" in reality
I simply tell them. I'm Hippopotamus Superman!!!....and they think I'm crazy?
Rigdonb
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Second, there is the ever-present "superficial conversations" problem ... Latest example: I went to see some people the other day. (Now that I'm working from home office I know that I have to take care not to become too isolated, although most of the time I'm fine with that.) You can talk to me about almost anything, as long as there is a bit of depth to it. So, someone in that group brought up the topic "star signs" and asked everybody about their birthday and whether they thought the description of their particular star sign applied to them. As far as I'm concerned, I don't really believe in star signs but I have thought a lot about it in the past, and I think if there is any truth to it, it must be because of early childhood development processes and formative experiences in a particular climate (and hence the place of birth becomes important, too) and people in the past simply associated that with the stars in the sky. – Anyway, these were the thoughts I happily communicated to that small group of people who had gathered there to do some flower repotting together. AND I could almost instantly FEEL how their brains shut down.
You are just right and it's tragic that good people always have to feel weird just because there's more lame people than cool people
Mike S
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I have attempted to fit in many times to society. Wether at work or with 'friends' I find myself almost emulating whoever I was around. I will adapt and become whatever it is that person needs at the time. I find myself doing this without first realizing it. I feel when I am with other people I am not allowed to have my own personality as it is so much different than anybody elses. I find myself odd and not sociable. The most difficult problems I have is 'small talk'. I don't know how to do this?? If anyone starts talking about sports, or anything else that doesn't interest me my mind just shuts off and I can even comprehend the basic conversation thats happening. I feel when I'm with a group of people that I could disappear and nobody would notice. My wife enjoys going out with friends but as soon as she brings it up my heart rate starts increasing. I need zanex just to make it through a dentist appt and would still rather be there than at a dinner with friends.
D
Deleted member 16771
If we suppose that the evolutionary basis of personality types is group selection, the social world we're 'supposed' to find a role in is the tribal village of around 150 people.
Just statistically speaking, the rarity of INFJ types lends credence to the idea that we're built for a kind of 'shaman' role - there will be 1 INFJ per generation in the tribal village of 150.
The problem is that industrial civilisation has been adapted from what the majority of these ancient villagers find comfortable. So, things like the 'working day' is really weird for a lot of people. When the working day is 9-5, those people carrying genes (yes, genes; a team recently won a Nobel prize for work into this) to function as late night sentinels are left out. There are literally people walking around who are genetically programed to be awake while others are asleep for the safety and survival of their tribal village. These people are left out of modern industrial society's insistence on a 9-5 working day.
These industrial constructs are essentially relics of the 19th century, but our modern civilisation is so vastly different from our evolutionary heritage that a huge range of specialised individuals (specialised for group selection) are likely to feel left out.
The question is, does society still need shaman/visionary types at the same frequency our tribal ancestors did?
Just statistically speaking, the rarity of INFJ types lends credence to the idea that we're built for a kind of 'shaman' role - there will be 1 INFJ per generation in the tribal village of 150.
The problem is that industrial civilisation has been adapted from what the majority of these ancient villagers find comfortable. So, things like the 'working day' is really weird for a lot of people. When the working day is 9-5, those people carrying genes (yes, genes; a team recently won a Nobel prize for work into this) to function as late night sentinels are left out. There are literally people walking around who are genetically programed to be awake while others are asleep for the safety and survival of their tribal village. These people are left out of modern industrial society's insistence on a 9-5 working day.
These industrial constructs are essentially relics of the 19th century, but our modern civilisation is so vastly different from our evolutionary heritage that a huge range of specialised individuals (specialised for group selection) are likely to feel left out.
The question is, does society still need shaman/visionary types at the same frequency our tribal ancestors did?
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Duh, obviously. Just look around at all these damn fools. They need all the help they can get
I'm happy to be a societal reject who spends his time in the moonlight helping people sort shit out. In fact, I think you've inspired a good business model here.
worthy
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I am late to this conversation but enjoying it very much. Wish I could have shared it with my 13-year-old self. By that age she had figured out HOW to fit in socially, but she couldn't bring herself to DO it regularly without compromising her core authenticity. It's easy to figure out the game, but hard to feel good playing it.
What I didn't realize then was that I actually DID fit in and was very good at it, just as long as I was willing to hide my deeper, truer self.
The pervasive advice to "Just be yourself!" always threw me for a loop. Still does. It feels like a trick: Just be yourself so we can throw things at you in a misguided attempt to diffuse your intensity and laugh at how different you are from everyone else because we think you are a freak because we don't get you at all...
I learned very very early on that my truest, deepest self was not something I was safe sharing, because it would earn me funny looks and awkward pauses and people who walked away or even hurt me on purpose because they were uncomfortable with someone whose radically different presence challenged theirs. We're talking junior high, I realize, but also elementary school and high school -- that sort of repeated experience scars you (kindergarten through graduation), especially when combined with a similar response from teachers who couldn't wrap their minds or training around a kid who thought so deeply and articulated so expansively. It leads to the understandable feeling that NOBODY UNDERSTANDS ME.
I have learned that I should "just be myself" only with friends I'd been priming and testing for at least several years. Some friends are worth it; most are not. Thankfully, I have a few friendships in this category and a few others that I'm working on with the hope that my investment will pay off.
And with all the other people, "just be like them" is the way to go in order to avoid social pain, frustration, and isolation.
It's cool; I like the chameleon thing -- except for the challenge it gives to my desire for personal authenticity. As a kid, as long as I reminded myself that it was a game with a fairly guaranteed win for me - social acceptance - it felt worth it to be the chameleon.
It's so good to be among people who understand. I've never had that experience before! Spent my whole life until now feeling entirely alone in this. Thank you all.
What I didn't realize then was that I actually DID fit in and was very good at it, just as long as I was willing to hide my deeper, truer self.
The pervasive advice to "Just be yourself!" always threw me for a loop. Still does. It feels like a trick: Just be yourself so we can throw things at you in a misguided attempt to diffuse your intensity and laugh at how different you are from everyone else because we think you are a freak because we don't get you at all...
I learned very very early on that my truest, deepest self was not something I was safe sharing, because it would earn me funny looks and awkward pauses and people who walked away or even hurt me on purpose because they were uncomfortable with someone whose radically different presence challenged theirs. We're talking junior high, I realize, but also elementary school and high school -- that sort of repeated experience scars you (kindergarten through graduation), especially when combined with a similar response from teachers who couldn't wrap their minds or training around a kid who thought so deeply and articulated so expansively. It leads to the understandable feeling that NOBODY UNDERSTANDS ME.
I have learned that I should "just be myself" only with friends I'd been priming and testing for at least several years. Some friends are worth it; most are not. Thankfully, I have a few friendships in this category and a few others that I'm working on with the hope that my investment will pay off.
And with all the other people, "just be like them" is the way to go in order to avoid social pain, frustration, and isolation.
It's cool; I like the chameleon thing -- except for the challenge it gives to my desire for personal authenticity. As a kid, as long as I reminded myself that it was a game with a fairly guaranteed win for me - social acceptance - it felt worth it to be the chameleon.
It's so good to be among people who understand. I've never had that experience before! Spent my whole life until now feeling entirely alone in this. Thank you all.