Would Adam have died?

[Lark]

I'd tend to agree. He is pretty thorough about it.

My issue is that I don't feel that he actually believes it and that is what bothers me. Or maybe he does believe it somehow but is trying way too hard to be 'in the club'.

I don't think there's anything that bothers me more than somebody being so self aware.

I get this impression from a lot of true believers, whether its religion or ideology, although some of the time I think that it is a kind of hopefulness. There are people who arent over compensating for secret doubts too and who are satisfied with apparently water tight talismans against their uncertainty.

 

[Lark]

I agree with you.
But he assumes that he is forgiven...yet, look at his attitude...he is clearly incredibly full of pride...not just here, but on other threads where he has stated insomuch.
A person who behaves in such a way while professing to follow the teachings and examples of Jesus has clearly missed the point.

Well, I agree, although I am not an evangelical protestant, I think that this idea of Jesus' death cleansing all believers of sin, for all time and securing eternal life/rewards is open to real error.

James Hogg wrote a novel called confessions of a justified sinner in which someone professing this doctrine goes on to commit terrible sins including murder because he believes that Jesus has already saved him from any consequence or divine retribution. Its a good book. Although it is not meant to be written as critical of a single school of thought but all "religious bigotry" per se.

 

[Lerxst]

To answer the question, yes.

God is an evil SOB. If he is perfect, he knew they would sin. He set them up for failure from the start; apple within plucking distance, evil snake in garden, etc. and then planting the idea of not doing something. God, therefor, created man with the intent of death and planned it right from the start.

Either that, or God isn't perfect... which negates the entire concept of the religion.

 

[j654dgj7]

To answer the question, yes.

God is an evil SOB. If he is perfect, he knew they would sin. He set them up for failure from the start; apple within plucking distance, evil snake in garden, etc. and then planting the idea of not doing something. God, therefor, created man with the intent of death and planned it right from the start.

Either that, or God isn't perfect... which negates the entire concept of the religion.

I get what you're saying, and I'm inclined to agree with you 100%. However.

Regarding God being evil - who's to say he's always going to have to be kind to humans? He told us not to do something and along came consequences.

Personally I don't see death as a punishment, I see it as a blessing. I mean how long can you go to work, talk to people about sports/movies/tv-shows, drive home, eat dinner and sleep before you've had enough? I know a lot of older people that are just sick and tired of everything that I think is very interesting. They've just gone over the same thing over and over again throughout their entire lives. To many people, Earth really isn't that interesting after 50 years of living on it. From what I've heard. I know that at age 23 I can start to see things that I used to think were very exciting as less exciting. Remember when you were a kid and a magician would do a trick and you just couldn't contain your surprise and happiness that it happened? Yeah. Let's go away and let new people enjoy the world at some point!

 

[Skarekrow]

Well, I agree, although I am not an evangelical protestant, I think that this idea of Jesus' death cleansing all believers of sin, for all time and securing eternal life/rewards is open to real error.

James Hogg wrote a novel called confessions of a justified sinner in which someone professing this doctrine goes on to commit terrible sins including murder because he believes that Jesus has already saved him from any consequence or divine retribution. Its a good book. Although it is not meant to be written as critical of a single school of thought but all "religious bigotry" per se.

According to the Bible, everyone will be saved....past...present...future.
He is of the mindset that there will be a very small group of select souls (including his of course) that will be saved...that was not what Jesus taught.

 

[sprinkles]

I get this impression from a lot of true believers, whether its religion or ideology, although some of the time I think that it is a kind of hopefulness. There are people who arent over compensating for secret doubts too and who are satisfied with apparently water tight talismans against their uncertainty.

Yes.

In addition to that, at some point we touched on the idea of picking different aspects of belief that appeal to them. That may seem like waffling but if it turns out cohesive then I feel it is actually better off that way because it means they are thinking.

Otherwise it ends up with inflexibility which ends up justified with things like "I know God personally and he told me so". Does that sound familiar?

When a person says this, they obviously do not realize that anyone can get this feeling about anything. I get it too. I've felt I've talked to God personally at times. There are times where I could legitimately say "Well God spoke to me too, and God says you are a fraud" but I don't go around saying it.

God 'talks' to almost everybody at some point so it isn't an excuse to claim authority.

 

[Lark]

Yes.

In addition to that, at some point we touched on the idea of picking different aspects of belief that appeal to them. That may seem like waffling but if it turns out cohesive then I feel it is actually better off that way because it means they are thinking.

Otherwise it ends up with inflexibility which ends up justified with things like "I know God personally and he told me so". Does that sound familiar?

When a person says this, they obviously do not realize that anyone can get this feeling about anything. I get it too. I've felt I've talked to God personally at times. There are times where I could legitimately say "Well God spoke to me too, and God says you are a fraud" but I don't go around saying it.

God 'talks' to almost everybody at some point so it isn't an excuse to claim authority.

I agree with that, although the reason for claiming a personal relationship with God is because its a personal relationship with God, this is another core belief or principle from the reformation which is half understood or wholly forgotten which is lousy out of context.

The idea of the personal relationship with God is meant to be contrary to any intermediary, any church, any clergy, any authority, its contra the confessional, sacramentalism and the power of eternal life or eternal torment which was once vested in a single church authority, perhaps it makes sense in that context, that is in the struggle between private, individual conscience and authoritarian power. Although besides that, as you say yourself, it can mean anything and its difficult to validate, invalidate, challenge or endorse, one thing for sure it is no authority as you say.