Would you vote to control your boss' wages?

[Odyne]

The CEO has control over other peoples livlihood...why is that ok?



Yeah...get rid of CEO's and run workers cooperatives instead

To the first point: It's okay, because people agreed to it. A CEO is appointed by someone/people who privately own the business, and it is this autonomy of theirs that lets them decide the terms on which others are brought on board.

Employees have a choice to not work for that company. If enough talented people do not find the company attractive to work for, either in terms of money, hours, and projects, then the company will have to change its recruitment and hiring strategies to stay competitive, otherwise it will disintegrate. CEOs and Top Management know this.


To the second point: That's a great idea. I don't have an issue with it, nor am I defending the hierarchical structure. Actually, horizontal start ups and companies seem to be doing so much better in the market, than old fashioned top-down companies. The issue that I have is with the alarming general direction this whole thread was taking. It is NOT okay to set someone else's house on fire, just cause you lost/about to lose yours. It wasn't attractive to people that they should find a way to take control of their lives/wages, no one wanted to talk about that. They wanted to take control of other people's lives- as a solution. It is so much easier to play the victim and seek vengeance, because we don't have to take a hard look at ourselves.


The problem is that we concede power and critical decision making to assholes and psychopaths, and then we complain that honest hard working people don't amount to much or fall victim. I think honest, hard working people should grow a spine, read a book, and show some teeth.



As far as the rest of the facts you listed muir, I am not going to challenge them. I know you've done your research and your prowess in the topic far surpasses mine.

 

[SpecialEdition]

To the first point: It's okay, because people agreed to it. A CEO is appointed by someone/people who privately own the business, and it is this autonomy of theirs that lets them decide the terms on which others are brought on board.

Employees have a choice to not work for that company. If enough talented people do not find the company attractive to work for, either in terms of money, hours, and projects, then the company will have to change its recruitment and hiring strategies to stay competitive, otherwise it will disintegrate. CEOs and Top Management know this.


To the second point: That's a great idea. I don't have an issue with it, nor am I defending the hierarchical structure. Actually, horizontal start ups and companies seem to be doing so much better in the market, than old fashioned top-down companies. The issue that I have is with the alarming general direction this whole thread was taking. It is NOT okay to set someone else's house on fire, just cause you lost/about to lose yours. It wasn't attractive to people that they should find a way to take control of their lives/wages, no one wanted to talk about that. They wanted to take control of other people's lives- as a solution. It is so much easier to play the victim and seek vengeance, because we don't have to take a hard look at ourselves.


The problem is that we concede power and critical decision making to assholes and psychopaths, and then we complain that honest hard working people don't amount to much or fall victim. I think honest, hard working people should grow a spine, read a book, and show some teeth.



As far as the rest of the facts you listed muir, I am not going to challenge them. I know you've done your research and your prowess in the topic far surpasses mine.

You've pretty much summed up at what I was getting at in one of my earlier posts.

I actually find it disgusting how quickly people want to tear other people down just because they're not getting theirs... It's as if people have just given up and think they have no true control over themselves and so want to turn the tables to control other people. It just doesn't work and it's never going to work. I think a lot of people like to talk big about taking action but do nothing. It's easier to do nothing. It's easier to be complacent. It's easier to say "someone else is dictating my life from a far away land with lots of money" and not take a look at their surroundings and see what could be improved upon.

 

[muir]

To the first point: It's okay, because people agreed to it. A CEO is appointed by someone/people who privately own the business, and it is this autonomy of theirs that lets them decide the terms on which others are brought on board.

Yup and we are talking about people agreeing to be able to set the wage of CEO's

Employees have a choice to not work for that company. If enough talented people do not find the company attractive to work for, either in terms of money, hours, and projects, then the company will have to change its recruitment and hiring strategies to stay competitive, otherwise it will disintegrate. CEOs and Top Management know this.

No its got nothing to do with 'talent'

if the people at the top of the corporate world were talented then our economy wouldn;t be fucked, our environment wouldn't be fucked, poverty wouldn't be rampant, our world wouldn't be filling up with junk, there wouldn't be wars everywhere

They're not talented, they are cunning and cruel and selfish

To the second point: That's a great idea. I don't have an issue with it, nor am I defending the hierarchical structure. Actually, horizontal start ups and companies seem to be doing so much better in the market, than old fashioned top-down companies. The issue that I have is with the alarming general direction this whole thread was taking. It is NOT okay to set someone else's house on fire, just cause you lost/about to lose yours. It wasn't attractive to people that they should find a way to take control of their lives/wages, no one wanted to talk about that. They wanted to take control of other people's lives- as a solution. It is so much easier to play the victim and seek vengeance, because we don't have to take a hard look at ourselves.

There was a social contract of sorts before where humans agreed to treat each other with a degree of respect; this meant that the corporate sharks at the top didn't loot the economy leaving it to burn

But that has changed

The problem is that we concede power and critical decision making to assholes and psychopaths, and then we complain that honest hard working people don't amount to much or fall victim. I think honest, hard working people should grow a spine, read a book, and show some teeth.

The problem is that society is coming from the gut and the head and not the heart

 

[muir]

You've pretty much summed up at what I was getting at in one of my earlier posts.

I actually find it disgusting how quickly people want to tear other people down just because they're not getting theirs... It's as if people have just given up and think they have no true control over themselves and so want to turn the tables to control other people. It just doesn't work and it's never going to work. I think a lot of people like to talk big about taking action but do nothing. It's easier to do nothing. It's easier to be complacent. It's easier to say "someone else is dictating my life from a far away land with lots of money" and not take a look at their surroundings and see what could be improved upon.

Well i have taken steps for example developing the skills to become my own boss and run my own company

But i also know that other people with lots of money in far away lands ARE doing things that affect my life and my world

Statistically speaking there's a high chance that you will lose your job in the next 10 years to automation

Also the people with lots of money are changing the system and want to squeeze small operators out of existence as they want a corporate monopoly that will morph into a state socialist planned economy

The environment whether regarding taxes or legislation are going to become increasingly hostile to small independent ventures

This is what all the big international trade agreements like the TTIP and TAFTA are about...they're about screwing the little guy and helping the big corporations that want to own everything and everyone

 

[SealHammer]

I kind of skipped the whole second page because I just wanted to post.

[MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION] what do you think about tying wages in a company together at fixed percentages? i.e. top boss manager's salary cannot exceed X% of the median of all other income in the company, or the lowest income, or something like that.

that way you're encouraging the well-being of everyone in the company instead of just pulling down the one at the top and assuming that it will magically make things better for everyone else.

I'm not certain how you'd implement something like that on a governmental level, I can only really rationalize it at a local level with collective bargaining between unions and companies.

 

[SpecialEdition]

Well i have taken steps for example developing the skills to become my own boss and run my own company

But i also know that other people with lots of money in far away lands ARE doing things that affect my life and my world

Statistically speaking there's a high chance that you will lose your job in the next 10 years to automation

Also the people with lots of money are changing the system and want to squeeze small operators out of existence as they want a corporate monopoly that will morph into a state socialist planned economy

The environment whether regarding taxes or legislation are going to become increasingly hostile to small independent ventures

This is what all the big international trade agreements like the TTIP and TAFTA are about...they're about screwing the little guy and helping the big corporations that want to own everything and everyone

Well it's good that you are working towards financial self-efficiency. I think everyone should be very aware of their own financial situation and what steps they should take to cushion themselves for the long term. That is what I am working on right now, too.

I very, very highly doubt my job will be lost in 10 years. I do think that many people stand to lose it, but given the business I am in I would say it's next to impossible. My entire career is based around international trade so I know the ins and outs of this better than someone looking at it from the outside in. I understand why they are making massive trade agreements, my job and what I do is directly affected by changes like this happening.

A new trade agreement from a financial perspective only affects certain tariffs and duty and tax rates. It may or may not alleviate SIMA charges or other fees incurred depending on the product that is being imported and exported. While trade agreements open borders and reduce the amount of money being paid on CERTAIN goods under CERTAIN circumstances, it does not change what importing countries will and will not allow and what will and will not affect their own markets. It just means that maybe certain companies who import specific things will see a duty relief. This will not exempt them from paying taxes. Companies can already apply for duty relief by submitting appeals and arguing the tariff their stuff has been classified under and in some cases may get duty drawbacks from that, too.

Little corporations are not going to suffer in terms of trade agreements in the way you might think. All companies are subject to import and export regulations. All companies have to account for their duties and taxes. They have to understand the international economy and the local legislature in terms of what they're buying and selling. They have to enlist logistics specialists to move the freight, customs specialists to classify their goods and advise on government requirements and regulations, etc. Someone has to advise people on what they're buying and selling, has to fill out their permits, their CFIA/FDA/ETC documentation, inspect the goods blah blah blah.

There is so much more that goes on in international trade than duties and taxes that it would take me months just to fully educate people on all of the work and manpower that goes into making shit move.

So with that said, I think most people working in international trade have a very long career ahead of them. Just because trade agreements go through does not mean that millions of companies are going to be able to modify all of their practices and get everything up to date to suit a trade agreement. It simply doesn't work that way.

 

[muir]

Well it's good that you are working towards financial self-efficiency. I think everyone should be very aware of their own financial situation and what steps they should take to cushion themselves for the long term. That is what I am working on right now, too.

I very, very highly doubt my job will be lost in 10 years. I do think that many people stand to lose it, but given the business I am in I would say it's next to impossible. My entire career is based around international trade so I know the ins and outs of this better than someone looking at it from the outside in. I understand why they are making massive trade agreements, my job and what I do is directly affected by changes like this happening.

A new trade agreement from a financial perspective only affects certain tariffs and duty and tax rates. It may or may not alleviate SIMA charges or other fees incurred depending on the product that is being imported and exported. While trade agreements open borders and reduce the amount of money being paid on CERTAIN goods under CERTAIN circumstances, it does not change what importing countries will and will not allow and what will and will not affect their own markets. It just means that maybe certain companies who import specific things will see a duty relief. This will not exempt them from paying taxes. Companies can already apply for duty relief by submitting appeals and arguing the tariff their stuff has been classified under and in some cases may get duty drawbacks from that, too.

Little corporations are not going to suffer in terms of trade agreements in the way you might think. All companies are subject to import and export regulations. All companies have to account for their duties and taxes. They have to understand the international economy and the local legislature in terms of what they're buying and selling. They have to enlist logistics specialists to move the freight, customs specialists to classify their goods and advise on government requirements and regulations, etc. Someone has to advise people on what they're buying and selling, has to fill out their permits, their CFIA/FDA/ETC documentation, inspect the goods blah blah blah.
There is so much more that goes on in international trade than duties and taxes that it would take me months just to fully educate people on all of the work and manpower that goes into making shit move.

So with that said, I think most people working in international trade have a very long career ahead of them. Just because trade agreements go through does not mean that millions of companies are going to be able to modify all of their practices and get everything up to date to suit a trade agreement. It simply doesn't work that way.

I think the game is going to change drastically over the coming years

Trans Pacific Partnership:

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/...rtant-step-toward-a-one-world-economic-system

[h=1]Obama’s Secret Treaty Would Be The Most Important Step Toward A One World Economic System[/h]

By Michael Snyder, on November 12th, 2014

Barack Obama is secretly negotiating the largest international trade agreement in history, and the mainstream media in the United States is almost completely ignoring it. If this treaty is adopted, it will be the most important step toward a one world economic system that we have ever seen. The name of this treaty is "the Trans-Pacific Partnership", and the text of the treaty is so closely guarded that not even members of Congress know what is in it. Right now, there are 12 countries that are part of the negotiations: the United States, Canada, Australia, Brunei, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore and Vietnam. These nations have a combined population of 792 million people and account for an astounding 40 percent of the global economy. And it is hoped that the EU, China and India will eventually join as well. This is potentially the most dangerous economic treaty of our lifetimes, and yet there is very little political debate about it in this country. Even though Congress is not being allowed to see what is in the treaty, Barack Obama wants Congress to give him fast track negotiating authority. What that means is that Congress would essentially trust Obama to negotiate a good treaty for us. Congress could vote the treaty up or down, but would not be able to amend or filibuster it.
Of course now the Republicans control both houses of Congress. If they are foolish enough to blindly give Barack Obama so much power, they should all immediately resign.
And it is critical that people understand that this is not just an economic treaty. It is basically a gigantic end run around Congress. Thanks to leaks, we have learned that so many of the things that Obama has deeply wanted for years are in this treaty. If adopted, this treaty will fundamentally change our laws regarding Internet freedom, healthcare, copyright and patent protection, food safety, environmental standards, civil liberties and so much more. This treaty includes many of the rules that alarmed Internet activists so much when SOPA was being debated, it would essentially ban all "Buy American" laws, it would give Wall Street banks much more freedom to trade risky derivatives and it would force even more domestic manufacturing offshore.
In other words, it is the treaty from hell.
In addition to imposing Obama's vision for the world on 40 percent of the global population, it is also being described as a "Christmas wish-list for major corporations". Of the 29 chapters in the treaty, only five of them actually deal with economic issues. The rest of the treaty deals with a whole host of other issues of great importance to the global elite.
The following list of issues addressed by this treaty is from a Malaysian news source...

• domestic court decisions and international legal standards (e.g., overriding domestic laws on both trade and nontrade matters, foreign investors’ right to sue governments in international tribunals that would overrule the national sovereignty)
• environmental regulations (e.g., nuclear energy, pollution, sustainability)
• financial deregulation (e.g., more power and privileges to the bankers and financiers)
• food safety (e.g., lowering food self-sufficiency, prohibition of mandatory labeling of genetically modified products, or bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) or mad cow disease)
• Government procurement (e.g., no more buy locally produced/grown)
• Internet freedom (e.g., monitoring and policing user activity)
• labour (e.g., welfare regulation, workplace safety, relocating domestic jobs abroad)
• patent protection, copyrights (e.g., decrease access to affordable medicine)
• public access to essential services may be restricted due to investment rules (e.g., water, electricity, and gas)
​

Why can't we get this type of reporting in the United States?
And if this treaty is ultimately approved by Congress, we will essentially be stuck with it forever.
This treaty is written in such a way that the United States will be permanently bound by all of the provisions and will never be able to alter them unless all of the other countries agree.
Are you starting to understand why this treaty is so dangerous?
This treaty is the key to Obama's "legacy". He wants to impose his will upon 40 percent of the global population in a way that will never be able to be overturned.
Of course Obama is touting this treaty as the path to economic recovery. He promises that it will greatly increase global trade, decrease tariffs and create more jobs for American workers.
But instead, it would be a major step toward destroying what is left of the U.S. economy.
Over the past several decades, every time a major trade agreement has been signed we have seen even more good jobs leave the United States.
And it doesn't take a genius to figure out why this is happening. If corporations can move jobs to the other side of the planet to nations where it is legal to pay slave labor wages, they will make larger profits.
Just think about it. If you were running a corporation and you had the choice of paying workers ten dollars an hour or one dollar an hour, which would you choose?
Plus there are so many other costs, taxes and paperwork hassles when you deal with American workers. For example, big corporations will not have to provide Obamacare for their foreign workers. That alone will represent a huge savings.
Any basic course in economics will teach you that labor flows from markets where labor costs are high to markets where labor costs are lower. And at this point it costs less to make almost everything overseas. As a result, we have already lost millions upon millions of good jobs, and countless small and mid-size U.S. companies have been forced to shut down because they cannot compete with foreign manufacturers.
Later this month, consumers will flock to retail stores for "Black Friday" deals. But if you look carefully at those products, you will find that almost all of them are made overseas. We buy far, far more from the rest of the world than they buy from us, and that is a recipe for national economic suicide.
We consume far more wealth that we produce, and anyone with half a brain can see that is not sustainable in the long run. The only way that we have been able to maintain our high standard of living is by going into insane amounts of debt. We are currently living in the largest debt bubble in the history of the planet, and at some point the party is going to end.
Please share this article with as many people as you can. We need to inform people about what Obama is trying to do.
If Obama is successful in ramming this secret treaty through, it is going to do incalculable damage to what is left of the once great U.S. economy.

Automation


Here's the thing about automation; automation is going to render millions of people unemployed and this is going to create social instability. Even for those who manage to hold onto jobs they will then be left living in an unstable society and will be paying for the welfare to keep the unemployed from rioting through their taxes


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...n-jobs-at-risk-from-advancing-technology.html

[h=1]Ten million jobs at risk from advancing technology[/h] [h=2]Up to 35pc of Britain's jobs will be eliminated by new computing and robotics technology over the next 20 years, say experts[/h]Ten million British jobs could be taken over by computers and robots over the next 20 years, wiping out more than one in three roles.

 

[Skarekrow]

This is what I ACTUALLY see from most people:

They want to bitch about how much CEO's make, or how much their supervisor makes, or how much they're not making but there is absolutely NOTHING remarkable about the naysayers. I have never seen these people go above and beyond in any situation. I have never seen them do much more than come in, do the minimum of what they are paid to do, and then go home. There is nothing about them that strikes me as CEO material or BOSS material and a lot of that is why they'll never rise above where they are. While yes, the system is not very favourable, people are just shitty at what they do and they do not bring anything innovative to the table. That is the problem.

Someone has to be at the top, and the person at the top has to add value in some way. Maybe they're charismatic and great at networking. Maybe they're not afraid to make hard decisions and cut costs and do things that affect the people that work for them. Maybe they're just a pretty face who looks good representing the company. Maybe they're a great sales person or they have at least some qualifiers that would grant them that position. A lot of people don't just START at the top except in rare cases and most people actually have zero ambition to be at the top, but they'd love to have the pay cheque handed to them.

The American Dream in whatever capacity it used to be is total bullshit. The American Dream still requires you to stay in a straight line and follow the model and to just act as a living representation of an idea that I don't think brings anyone any true satisfaction. People are trying to chase something they can't emulate.

I intend to invest well. I intend to work well. I intend to retire with millions on the bank and will make it happen. Some people lack the drive and the knowledge and the will to make changes in their lives to achieve what it is that they want. I don't feel sorry for that at all. I think it's pathetic.

You have to consider the amount of leaders in relation to those who are led. The vast majority of people I have seen both in real life and online seem to have it in their minds that they're a victim of how the system is, but they are not maximizing their own potential to work that system. Anyone who doesn't have those extra special skills or networks or whatever and thinks they're going to get into a CEO position of a company they didn't start is probably delusional though getting there is not impossible. But financial success in life has a lot more to do with how we operate outside of the workplace and not as much to do with how much we get paid. I think this is where the biggest problem is. I have a manager right now who is a terrible leader but who gets paid a lot of money. She is retirement age and yet can't retire because she spends too much and thus has to continue to stay in her current position until she can afford to leave LOL.

I am fine with my own payrate, too. I shopped around for this job and was very specific about how much I wanted to make. I had interviews and job offers but I wasn't going to take anything that didn't fit my specific parameters. I was not going to lose my life to a long commute and I wasn't going to take less than I knew I was worth. Everyone at my job absolutely fucking loves me, my competence level is high, I am saving my department alone a shit ton of money each year through new strategies for how we do things, and I bring a lot of fresh ideas to the table. I should be getting promoted into our head office in a relatively short space of time which means a big pay raise for me and a lot of nice bells and whistles with it. But I don't intend to get "rich" off my paycheque alone. I intend to adopt a more frugal lifestyle, buy things that will last me a significant amount of time, drive my car until it costs more to repair than it does to buy a new one and when I do get a new one get the most efficient and cost effective car there is out there. All this while having ZERO debts, investing my money smartly over a long period of time and making sure I am building up my savings and assets while I am at it.

I think it's a bit short sighted to think anyone can simply just get paid more and live at the top end of the financial bracket when there are so many other ways outside of work that this can be done. I also intend to take my writing off the ground, freelance, get into things that I am passionate about on the side and make money off of that. Not only that, I am in a partnership that facilitates this kind of living and financial lifestyle. Even without investing we should be able to retire early and comfortably.

So this is what I mean when I think it's pathetic that people limit themselves to their current job and don't think outside the box in terms of how to help themselves and move forward financially. I think it's kind of sick to bank everything on a job... I don't want to work to live. I want to work to get myself into a position where I can sustain myself and then spend more of my time indulging my passions.

Nobody wants to work paycheck to paycheck…I’m sure some people are really stupid about their finances (which I always say should be taught in HS), but the vast majority actually are victims of a system. That isn’t to say that with a lot of hardwork and willpower people can’t pull themselves up out of poverty…but it rarely happens, and it’s getting more rare by the day.
I’m not trying to argue or lecture…I didn’t mean it to sound like that if I did.

Take the hospital that I most recently worked for…about 5 years ago the hospital was a privately owned non-profit, and then they merged with one of the huge Catholic hospital conglomerate.
Almost immediately they slashed health benefits, burned the pension plan, and fired about 200 people right of the bat.
Subsequently, over the next 4 years, they cut more and more out of any kind of employee benefit they could cut.
Now I understand that perhaps money had to be cut somehow…except the local paper did an expose on the hospital administration handing out million dollar bonuses right after they fired 500 people in the middle of December right before Christmas…mostly the poorest of employees like housekeeping, those who would be hit the hardest.
That is the kind of shit that should never be tolerated…ever.
And they claim to be carrying on some shit about the healing ministry of Jesus my ass.
lol

Yes, there are some whiners out there, but it is absolutely true that the middle class and down, who represent 80% of America have had stagnate wages for three decades now, all while production is at an all time high…and all while the upper managements everywhere have taken what share of the profits used to go to the workers, and stuffed it into their pockets.

I hope you succeed in what you are after too…money just isn’t that important to me…I live far within my means and never buy anything on credit ever…if I don’t have the cold hard cash, I don’t buy it…that includes cars and whatnot.

You want to know my experience with management? All but maybe two people that directly supervised me have been human garbage…they are driven by greed and don’t care who they stab in the back..hell, they would stab you staring you down.
I have worked with lazy people, but there isn’t much room for lazy people in the OR, they get sorted out really fast!
I have also worked with some incredibly hard working and dedicated people, who are not paid even close to what they are worth.

I have no problem with someone getting paid what the market deems worthy of them to be paid…the problem is the market itself being hyper-inflated to inflate their own profit. Like Congress voting to give themselves pay-raises when they have the lowest approval rating in the history of the US.
I think that the amounts that CEOs and upper management, hedge fund managers, etc., are making now, is that hyper-inflated bubble about to burst.
IMO it is unsustainable.
I think people just want a little more fairness…at least here in the US, it’s gone way awry.
When Wal-Mart makes 13 Billion in profits each year, and they have the highest percentage of employees on food stamps because they don’t make enough to feed themselves, there is a problem. Also, I don’t want my tax dollars, going to such a store…those are taxes taken out to help feed the poor…no, one, with a full-time job, should need food stamps, it’s a legal scam they are pulling on the nation.
Anyhow…I wasn’t trying to be snarky…lol...I hope you reach your goals, good luck

@Odyne
People are voting to raise their wages…here in WA where I live, we have highest minimum wage in the US at $15 an hour in Seattle and $10 something for the rest, and guess what? We have the highest job growth in the US too…it’s directly correlated but it’s been a difficult fight against people like the Koch Brothers who have dumped millions and millions of dollars to fight against unions, and higher minimum wages, environmental controls, etc.
People are fighting, but with unemployment still a bit high, the majority of people cannot fight for higher wages because they will just fire them and hire all those waiting in the wings.
Also, especially in the mid-west, the once good-paying manufacturing jobs have been shipped overseas and replaced by low-wage jobs.
Also, also…lol…Forbes ran an article a couple years ago estimating that the rich in this country have hidden approximately $21 Trillion dollars (http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederi...er-rich-hide-21-trillion-offshore-study-says/) in off-shore accounts, effectively placing the tax burden on the working class and poor…because guess what? Now we can’t afford to pay for food stamps and social safety net programs…what ever the free market decides is a fair wage for someone is fine by me. But the same people who crashed our economy immediately gave each other bonuses from the taxpayer funded relief, and have been living it up ever since. A free market would have watched them go down in flames and crash. But we didn’t.
The game was rigged. They took the money they gambled with and lost (I should say, the public lost, they made more money than ever!) and then took the bailout and cashed it out as bonuses.
The problem here in the US is the amount of wealth the top 10% have accumulated leaves nothing to give pay raises to working class people…there is only so much wealth to go around. If the rich are hoarding the majority (which they do), then people will start fighting for scraps.
Here is a really good TED talk by Nick Hanauer who is a Capitalist and a Billionaire on why our current path in the US (I dunno about Canada) is unsustainable and the rich had better play a more fair game.

[video=youtube;q2gO4DKVpa8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=q2gO4DKVpa8[/video]

 

[SpecialEdition]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]

The Trans Pacific Agreement has been in talks for YEARS. Because of my certifications I get all of the notifications and updates on new trade agreements and basically anything and everything related to international trade. I've got info on this in my files dating back from what seems like forever stating they're "fast tracking" talks, and they're negotiating, and they're doing this, that and the other thing. I've got emails indicating that talks should have been completed well over a year and a half ago and still, the deal is not sealed. Even though they're working towards these trade agreements it's an exceptionally slow going process because everyone involved wants their own piece of the pie. That means that the negotiations have to benefit everyone economically otherwise it's a no-go. Some of these deals I've been reading about for YEARS and the negotiations just don't close because people are sticklers for what they want for themselves. It's not even a secret treaty. Anyone who works in international trade (me) know what trade agreements look like and what the implications are. MAYBE this will look something like globalization, but on a smaller level not a lot is going to change.

Just because borders open does not mean that countries are merging together.

I just love how vague all that shit in that article is. Do these people not know that there are already standards in place for the exchange of "information" and that "information" is actually a commodity? EVERYTHING is already regulated. None of this shit is news, this is the nature of the global economy where everyone wants what is best for themselves and if they have to enter into a massive trade agreement to get it, then that's what they're going to do. People also realize that all that stuff from the Malaysian government news source is already part of international trade anyway. A "deregulation" means nothing. That kind of thing is happening all the time in pockets all over the place anyway. A trade agreement like this will shake things up, but no one is going to make decisions that puts their own country behind. Every country has things that they very closely regulate, like Dairy in Canada for example.

I wouldn't get so tightly focused on Obama and Congress. It's not just up to them. There are 12 major economies here that stand to gain a lot or lose a lot in a treaty like this, and if all the information I have on my end says anything about it, we're a while off from every single country signing on and actually having it implemented. These kinds of agreements take time. Not only does it take time for them to be signed off on, but implementing them on a more civil level takes FOREVER. Do you have any concept of how much it costs for companies to change their import and export practices? How much it costs for tariff changes and other provisions to be taken on board? The amount of time, planning and execution that has to be gone through in order to meet new standards? There's shit that Customs and the Goverment has rolled out YEARS ago that aren't even in place yet because the goverment isn't even set up to deal with the changes they've signed off on in the first place.

I don't see anything new or compelling in that article. I don't see anything in that article that even relates to Automation. I see a lot of recycled material that people have been complaining about for a long time. I see zero technical information that shows me in a real way what the implications are globally or even in the home base. I just see a lot of garbage that's exactly the same stuff that has been spouted over and over about the NWO and everything else related to it, but nothing is in place. Countries are still separate even if behind the scenes they are tying themselves together. People are still trying to maintain a lifestyle being sold to them instead of waking the fuck up and seeing the reality of the situations they're creating for themselves.

There's a huge difference between something potentially happening and it actually happening. I don't care to operate based on the fantasy that the world is going to collapse because it already has. The USA fell a long time ago but no one wants to admit it because they represent an idea. People don't want to admit that the world is shit and that most countries don't have it together. People don't want to look at themselves and their own habits and see what it is they're doing wrong in their own lives.

There are too many fucking hands in the pot to point fingers.

I don't feel bad for anyone who gets swept under the rug or steamrolled. This is the world we live in now. If people are upset about it they can actively choose to change how they live and how they contribute to the current circumstance. Or we can all send a prayer out and hope God fixes the bad people and gives us everything we want. Or we can cry on the internet about it.

And to get back on topic, I still have no desire to regulate how much other people get paid. I only care to regulate how much *I* get paid based on what my actual needs are.

 

[SpecialEdition]

Nobody wants to work paycheck to paycheck…I’m sure some people are really stupid about their finances (which I always say should be taught in HS), but the vast majority actually are victims of a system. That isn’t to say that with a lot of hardwork and willpower people can’t pull themselves up out of poverty…but it rarely happens, and it’s getting more rare by the day.
I’m not trying to argue or lecture…I didn’t mean it to sound like that if I did.

No of course not. But there are tools and resources that exist for people to use. I myself had no financial training. I was making peanuts and got myself in an exponential amount of debt through a lot of bad decision making. I woke up and decided that was not how I wanted to live. I got a second job serving fast food and I worked for months like that and I paid that shit off. I made a lot of sacrifices and went without a lot of things including food for some periods of times so that I could meet financial goals. I shared a tiny one bedroom apartment with three other people to save money and make it work. I went through a long period where I was barely scraping by and never thought I'd get out and then I did. I come from a very humble background (think one parent working a minimum wage job, living in a trailer park and going on welfare here and there to get by) and yet somehow I managed to get out of it. So I don't take very lightly to victim mentalities because it's ridiculous.


Take the hospital that I most recently worked for…about 5 years ago the hospital was a privately owned non-profit, and then they merged with one of the huge Catholic hospital conglomerate.
Almost immediately they slashed health benefits, burned the pension plan, and fired about 200 people right of the bat.
Subsequently, over the next 4 years, they cut more and more out of any kind of employee benefit they could cut.
Now I understand that perhaps money had to be cut somehow…except the local paper did an expose on the hospital administration handing out million dollar bonuses right after they fired 500 people in the middle of December right before Christmas…mostly the poorest of employees like housekeeping, those who would be hit the hardest.
That is the kind of shit that should never be tolerated…ever.
And they claim to be carrying on some shit about the healing ministry of Jesus my ass.
lol

Welcome to business. The Catholics have a shit ton of money all through their system and they don't give a shit about you or I or anyone else. They care that you follow their rituals and you pay their taxes (here if you want to go to Catholic School you have to pay taxes to them... lol). They're going to do what suits them because they're privately owned. Is no one standing up to it or calling them on their shit? Probably not. Great, there was a newspaper article and I bet some people felt pretty bad about it, but I bet no one did very much about it either.

Yes, there are some whiners out there, but it is absolutely true that the middle class and down, who represent 80% of America have had stagnate wages for three decades now, all while production is at an all time high…and all while the upper managements everywhere have taken what share of the profits used to go to the workers, and stuffed it into their pockets.

Minimum wage here in Canada keeps going up. I've got raises every year. Companies I've worked for have just not paid management raises but have paid the "regular" folk their raises. It was capped at a small percentage but they kept powering through and still rewarded their employees. I haven't seen very many people who have really suffered from stagnant wages, but that's not how we operate here.

I hope you succeed in what you are after too…money just isn’t that important to me…I live far within my means and never buy anything on credit ever…if I don’t have the cold hard cash, I don’t buy it…that includes cars and whatnot.

Good for you. Some people aren't that smart.

You want to know my experience with management? All but maybe two people that directly supervised me have been human garbage…they are driven by greed and don’t care who they stab in the back..hell, they would stab you staring you down.
I have worked with lazy people, but there isn’t much room for lazy people in the OR, they get sorted out really fast!
I have also worked with some incredibly hard working and dedicated people, who are not paid even close to what they are worth.

Supervisors and management get shit on from both ends. They get shit on from the people above them and the staff below them. I think there are garbage people in all positions. Some people just shouldn't be in management and sometimes it feels like the worst people get put there, but for the most part they're there to play a role and get a specific job done. Sometimes it just seems like someone else would be better at making people's feelings feel better.

I have no problem with someone getting paid what the market deems worthy of them to be paid…the problem is the market itself being hyper-inflated to inflate their own profit. Like Congress voting to give themselves pay-raises when they have the lowest approval rating in the history of the US.
I think that the amounts that CEOs and upper management, hedge fund managers, etc., are making now, is that hyper-inflated bubble about to burst.
IMO it is unsustainable.
I think people just want a little more fairness…at least here in the US, it’s gone way awry.
When Wal-Mart makes 13 Billion in profits each year, and they have the highest percentage of employees on food stamps because they don’t make enough to feed themselves, there is a problem. Also, I don’t want my tax dollars, going to such a store…those are taxes taken out to help feed the poor…no, one, with a full-time job, should need food stamps, it’s a legal scam they are pulling on the nation.
Anyhow…I wasn’t trying to be snarky…lol...I hope you reach your goals, good luck

That's what happens when you don't have a real democracy anymore.

I just put my answers in bold..

 

[muir]

@muir

The Trans Pacific Agreement has been in talks for YEARS. Because of my certifications I get all of the notifications and updates on new trade agreements and basically anything and everything related to international trade. I've got info on this in my files dating back from what seems like forever stating they're "fast tracking" talks, and they're negotiating, and they're doing this, that and the other thing. I've got emails indicating that talks should have been completed well over a year and a half ago and still, the deal is not sealed. Even though they're working towards these trade agreements it's an exceptionally slow going process because everyone involved wants their own piece of the pie. That means that the negotiations have to benefit everyone economically otherwise it's a no-go. Some of these deals I've been reading about for YEARS and the negotiations just don't close because people are sticklers for what they want for themselves. It's not even a secret treaty. Anyone who works in international trade (me) know what trade agreements look like and what the implications are. MAYBE this will look something like globalization, but on a smaller level not a lot is going to change.

Just because borders open does not mean that countries are merging together.

I just love how vague all that shit in that article is. Do these people not know that there are already standards in place for the exchange of "information" and that "information" is actually a commodity? EVERYTHING is already regulated. None of this shit is news, this is the nature of the global economy where everyone wants what is best for themselves and if they have to enter into a massive trade agreement to get it, then that's what they're going to do. People also realize that all that stuff from the Malaysian government news source is already part of international trade anyway. A "deregulation" means nothing. That kind of thing is happening all the time in pockets all over the place anyway. A trade agreement like this will shake things up, but no one is going to make decisions that puts their own country behind. Every country has things that they very closely regulate, like Dairy in Canada for example.

I wouldn't get so tightly focused on Obama and Congress. It's not just up to them. There are 12 major economies here that stand to gain a lot or lose a lot in a treaty like this, and if all the information I have on my end says anything about it, we're a while off from every single country signing on and actually having it implemented. These kinds of agreements take time. Not only does it take time for them to be signed off on, but implementing them on a more civil level takes FOREVER. Do you have any concept of how much it costs for companies to change their import and export practices? How much it costs for tariff changes and other provisions to be taken on board? The amount of time, planning and execution that has to be gone through in order to meet new standards? There's shit that Customs and the Goverment has rolled out YEARS ago that aren't even in place yet because the goverment isn't even set up to deal with the changes they've signed off on in the first place.

I don't see anything new or compelling in that article. I don't see anything in that article that even relates to Automation. I see a lot of recycled material that people have been complaining about for a long time. I see zero technical information that shows me in a real way what the implications are globally or even in the home base. I just see a lot of garbage that's exactly the same stuff that has been spouted over and over about the NWO and everything else related to it, but nothing is in place. Countries are still separate even if behind the scenes they are tying themselves together. People are still trying to maintain a lifestyle being sold to them instead of waking the fuck up and seeing the reality of the situations they're creating for themselves.

There's a huge difference between something potentially happening and it actually happening. I don't care to operate based on the fantasy that the world is going to collapse because it already has. The USA fell a long time ago but no one wants to admit it because they represent an idea. People don't want to admit that the world is shit and that most countries don't have it together. People don't want to look at themselves and their own habits and see what it is they're doing wrong in their own lives.

There are too many fucking hands in the pot to point fingers.

I don't feel bad for anyone who gets swept under the rug or steamrolled. This is the world we live in now. If people are upset about it they can actively choose to change how they live and how they contribute to the current circumstance. Or we can all send a prayer out and hope God fixes the bad people and gives us everything we want. Or we can cry on the internet about it.

And to get back on topic, I still have no desire to regulate how much other people get paid. I only care to regulate how much *I* get paid based on what my actual needs are.

There's a number of problems with your post

But first of all the automation article was a seperate article

I'll deal with the automation point first of all...

I get a strong sense of you not really caring about other peoples circumstances but what you are failing to realise is that if society becomes unstable you still have to live in that mess

If you get mugged or your house gets burgled because crime is on the rise due to inflation and unemployment then you are being affected by the economic situation indirectly if not directly

Also you will be taxed morer to pay for the welfare for the unemployed (the corporate el-ites will dodge the tax and pass it onto workers like you)

But going back to the trade agreements they most definately ARE about helping corporate power whilst lessening the power of countries to hold the corporations to account

The big corporations do not care about borders...they are globalised institutions

But behind them are PEOPLE....very powerful people and often families whether royal, aristiocratic or financial dynasties or whatever

These families by increasing corporate power and decreasing state power to regulate the corporations are destroying democracy and that WILL have implications for you both directly and indirectly

You say people need to take responsiblity but you don't seem to want to face these realities yourself except by falling back on a position of saying ''well i'm alright so i don't really care about anyone else''

But like i said if other people aren't alright it will come round and affect you unless you can afford to travel in armoured cars and lear jets and live on private guarded islands like the el-ite can

If our society falls apart it's gonna affect you

The trade agreements are done out of the knowledge of the general public as they are not reported on in the mainstream media and the public do not get to vote on them despite the fact they are going to radically affect their world ...that's not democracy

The thread is about whether or not we should get to vote on the wages of the CEO's and i'm saying wake up folks soon you won't be able to vote on anything and if you want to vote on ceo pay then you should first of all demand a vote on these trade agreements because they are going to globalise your world and that will move the corporate elite further into the stratosphere away from the common people

Also serious numbers of jobs are going to be on the line due to automation and the migration of people...so we the people need to wake up and fast and start working together to demand greater political say or we are going to find ourselves increasingly out in the cold

People are all in this together whether they like it or not; anyone who thinks they'll breeze through unaffected is deluding themself

 

[SpecialEdition]

There's a number of problems with your post

But first of all the automation article was a seperate article

I'll deal with the automation point first of all...

I get a strong sense of you not really caring about other peoples circumstances but what you are failign to realsie is that if society becomes unstable you still have to live in that mess

If you get mugged or your house gets burgled because crime is on the rise due to inflation and unemployment then you are being affected by the economic situation indirectly if not directly

I live in an apartment building with security and underground parking and work in a gated, barbed wire warehouse. And no, I don't really care about other people. In case you didn't realize, people are mugging people all the time anyway. Robberies are always happening. There was three stabbings around the corner the other day, the bank was just robbed, and there's prostitutes and drug lords all over this city. I've seen people get taken down at gun point, have walked through downtown Vancouver where all the drug addicts, homeless and mentally ill are and am so far, so good.

But going back to the trade agreements they most definately ARE about helping corporate power whilst lessenign the power of countries to hold the corporations to account
Of course they are trying to help corporations. Of course they're trying to increase the amount of trade. No one wants to pay 200% duty on shit when they can get it for less. No one wants to pay Anti-Dumping duties to get some screws from overseas because their own country hasn't figured out how to manufacture it for less. No one wants to pay a retarded amount of taxes to get something they need to sell shit to their own citizens. The issue is deeper and more wide spread than just corporations having to pay less duties and taxes. There are so many intricate details that go into international trade which I know you don't understand in the way like someone like me would which is why I am tearing your post down. You are looking at the situation through a VERY specific lens. I am looking at it from a real world application where it's my job to understand and navigate this stuff and I see how it actually works in real time. I see the numbers. I pay the numbers. I classify the numbers and I see what they are globally because I deal with them globally. So by saying there's something wrong with my post, I can't even entertain that because while I am sure you know your shit in terms of "ideas" and the "new world order," you don't know shit about the technical aspect of international trade either in how brokerage and customs and government regulations ACTUALLY work, or how it looks like from inside one of these absolutely massive corporations which may stand to gain a lot from an agreement like this. Now that does NOT mean that I agree with it, but I think it's ridiculous to cry about something when the details haven't been released when most people who are getting upset about it have no fucking clue what actually goes on inside.

The big corporations do not care about borders...they are globalised institutions
I have only worked for global companies who both broker internationally and trade internationally. I already know this.

But behind them are PEOPLE....very powerful people and often families whether royal, aristiocratic or financial dynasties or whatever
And?

These families by increasing corporate power and decreasing state power to regulate the corporations are destroyign democracy and that WILL have implications for you both directly and indirectly
And?

You say people need to take responsiblity but you don't seem to want to face these realities yourself except by falling back on aposition of saying ''well i'm alright so i don't really care about anyone else''
I am alright now but have not always been alright. I see people in my own personal life who struggle. I see shit hitting the fan all the time as it is. I am sure it'll get a lot worse for a lot of people. But that's why people need to act NOW so that they can help themselves down the road when things inevitably get worse... which they will... and a trade agreement doesn't have to happen for that to occur. Shady shit is always going on and the world is already falling apart. I'm not going to blame that on a trade agreement that hasn't happened yet. And I'm not going to cry that some CEO makes more money than me and pretend like changing their wages are going to make a difference. What's a real world, applicable solution to this? You can highlight this information all you want, but what do you propose be changed that a vast majority of people are actually going to get on board with?

But like i said if other people aren't alright it will come round and affect you unless you can afford to travel in armoured cars and lear jets like the corporate el-iote can and live on private guarded islands like the el-ite can

Oh please. Let's not fall prey to hyperbole. We're not there yet. We're not even CLOSE to there yet. There's plenty of people living in very corrupt countries that aren't rolling around in armoured cars right now. Shit happens. Human beings adapt. We have survived millions of years through a lot of very uncomfortable situations both environmentally and economically. I am indifferent about it.

If our society falls apart it's gonna affect you
Of course it is. I'm not retarded.

The trade agreements are done out of the knowledge of the general public as they are not reported on in the mainstream media and the public do not get to vote on them despite the fact they are going to radically affect their world
As if the public ever had a chance in hell of understanding them... lol. You give people too much credit. They don't know anything about trade except maybe they're supposed to present their receipts to customs when they return home from vacation. Not saying it's excusable or that they shouldn't be given the opportunity but come on. No one is going to read through all of the technical stuff having to do with trade. That would take years to understand and comprehend.

The thread is about whether or not we should get to vote on the wages of the CEO's and i'm saying wake up folks soon you won't be able to vote on anything and if you want to vote on ceo pay then you should first of all demand a vote on these trade agreements because they are going to globalise your world and that will move the corporate elite further into the stratosphere away from the common people
LOL as if votes even matter now! There's no actual democracy.

Also serious numbers of jobs are going to be on the line...so we the people need to wake up and fast and start working together to demand greater political say or we are going to find ourselves increasingly out in the cold
I'm already awake. Too bad billions of other people never will be.

Answers in bold.

 

[Stu]

I am sure you know your shit in terms of "ideas" and the "new world order," you don't know shit about the technical aspect of international trade either in how brokerage and customs and government regulations ACTUALLY work, or how it looks like from inside one of these absolutely massive corporations which may stand to gain a lot from an agreement like this. Now that does NOT mean that I agree with it, but I think it's ridiculous to cry about something when the details haven't been released when most people who are getting upset about it have no fucking clue what actually goes on inside..

I <3 this woman!

The thread is about whether or not we should get to vote on the wages of the CEO's

If that were the actual OPs question I might think that maybe yes...there perhaps should be a limit on the ratio of ceo salary to lowest paid.... but the question is

• Would you vote to control your boss' wages?

that is not to say that since the thread (surprisingly) is now about central bankers controlling the world.

 

[muir]

I live in an apartment building with security and underground parking and work in a gated, barbed wire warehouse. And no, I don't really care about other people. In case you didn't realize, people are mugging people all the time anyway. Robberies are always happening. There was three stabbings around the corner the other day, the bank was just robbed, and there's prostitutes and drug lords all over this city. I've seen people get taken down at gun point, have walked through downtown Vancouver where all the drug addicts, homeless and mentally ill are and am so far, so good.

Just wait till things really hot up

Of course they are trying to help corporations. Of course they're trying to increase the amount of trade. No one wants to pay 200% duty on shit when they can get it for less. No one wants to pay Anti-Dumping duties to get some screws from overseas because their own country hasn't figured out how to manufacture it for less. No one wants to pay a retarded amount of taxes to get something they need to sell shit to their own citizens. The issue is deeper and more wide spread than just corporations having to pay less duties and taxes. There are so many intricate details that go into international trade which I know you don't understand in the way like someone like me would which is why I am tearing your post down. You are looking at the situation through a VERY specific lens. I am looking at it from a real world application where it's my job to understand and navigate this stuff and I see how it actually works in real time. I see the numbers. I pay the numbers. I classify the numbers and I see what they are globally because I deal with them globally. So by saying there's something wrong with my post, I can't even entertain that because while I am sure you know your shit in terms of "ideas" and the "new world order," you don't know shit about the technical aspect of international trade either in how brokerage and customs and government regulations ACTUALLY work, or how it looks like from inside one of these absolutely massive corporations which may stand to gain a lot from an agreement like this. Now that does NOT mean that I agree with it, but I think it's ridiculous to cry about something when the details haven't been released when most people who are getting upset about it have no fucking clue what actually goes on inside.

I know exactly what is going on

This is about the corporate elite concentrating their power and wealth more and more

I have only worked for global companies who both broker internationally and trade internationally. I already know this.
And?

And those people are centralising their power and wealth at the cost of everyone else and everyone else has a right to be upset about it

And?

And that is why people are protesting more and more around the world

I am alright now but have not always been alright. I see people in my own personal life who struggle. I see shit hitting the fan all the time as it is. I am sure it'll get a lot worse for a lot of people. But that's why people need to act NOW so that they can help themselves down the road when things inevitably get worse... which they will... and a trade agreement doesn't have to happen for that to occur. Shady shit is always going on and the world is already falling apart. I'm not going to blame that on a trade agreement that hasn't happened yet. And I'm not going to cry that some CEO makes more money than me and pretend like changing their wages are going to make a difference. What's a real world, applicable solution to this? You can highlight this information all you want, but what do you propose be changed that a vast majority of people are actually going to get on board with?

It's all connected and the people behind all these changes are a criminal network involved in war, people trafficking, drug running, weapons sales, peadophilia and satanism

Oh please. Let's not fall prey to hyperbole. We're not there yet. We're not even CLOSE to there yet. There's plenty of people living in very corrupt countries that aren't rolling around in armoured cars right now. Shit happens. Human beings adapt. We have survived millions of years through a lot of very uncomfortable situations both environmentally and economically. I am indifferent about it.

I am not being melodramatic...i think in time you'll see that i have been very restrained in the terms i speak about what i see is going down

Of course it is. I'm not retarded.

Right so you have something invested like the rest of us do in protecting it

As if the public ever had a chance in hell of understanding them... lol. You give people too much credit.

There are plenty of the public who understand very well what it is all about

Sure they know that the elites hire accountants and lawyers to pore over the fine print but basically the public know this is a wealth and power grab and that 'the law' is made by the powerful to protect their interests but there is another court and that is the court of public opnion and the court of public opinion says it stinks

It is for this reason we will see the public get more and more riled up

They don't know anything about trade except maybe they're supposed to present their receipts to customs when they return home from vacation. Not saying it's excusable or that they shouldn't be given the opportunity but come on. No one is going to read through all of the technical stuff having to do with trade. That would take years to understand and comprehend.

Why they hell should they understand it?

Most people aren't interested in finding ways to use corporations to screw over other people

Most people just want a fair wage for an honest days work and i don't see anythign wrong with that

LOL as if votes even matter now! There's no actual democracy.

We're agreed on that

I'm already awake. Too bad billions of other people never will be.

Being aware that things are messed up is one thing but being aware that they are going to then have a negative impact on your life and that we are all connected in many ways and should work together to avoid the corporate takeover of our planet is another thing

 

[muir]

I <3 this woman!



If that were the actual OPs question I might think that maybe yes...there perhaps should be a limit on the ratio of ceo salary to lowest paid.... but the question is that is not to say that since the thread (surprisingly) is now about central bankers controlling the world.

have you got anything to contribute to the thread stu except harassment of other members?

 

[SpecialEdition]

Just wait till things really hot up



I know exactly what is going on

This is about the corporate elite concentrating their power and wealth more and more



And those people are centralising their power and wealth at the cost of everyone else and everyone else has a right to be upset about it



And that is why people are protesting more and more around the world



It's all connected and the people behind all these changes are a criminal network involved in war, people trafficking, drug running, weapons sales, peadophilia and satanism



I am not being melodramatic...i think in time you'll see that i have been very restrained in the terms i speak about what i see is going down



Right so tyou have something invested like the rest of us do in protecting it



There are plenty of the public who understand very well what it is all about

Sure they know that the elites hire accountants and lawyers to pore over the fine print but basically the public know this is a wealth and power grab and that 'the law' is made by the powerful to protect their interests but there is another court and that is the court of public opnion and the court of public opinion says it stinks

It is for this reason we will see the public get more and more riled up



Why they hell should they understand it?

Most people aren't interested in fidning ways to use corproations to screw over other people

Most people just want a fair wage for an honest days work and i don't see anythign wrong with that




We're agreed on that



Being aware that things are messed up is one thing but being aware that they are going to then have a negative impact on your life and that we are all connected in many was and should work together to avoid the corporate takeover of our globe is another thing

Sigh.

You just don't know how it works on a technical level and for that reason I just can't take the post seriously. You haven't seen it in real world application. You haven't seen what it takes inside a business to make things run. You haven't seen the amount of training, resources and staff it takes to do shit on a global level. It's too easy to point fingers from the outside in when you haven't even been on the inside.

You can point to the beast but you'll never understand it which is why I am having this debate with you. I have been outside it, and I have read about all the information you have already presented about the NWO YEARS ago. I used to study that stuff for hours upon hours on end. A lot of the information you bring to the table I already knew forever ago. So I have already entered into trade knowing what goes on. But it's a very, very different view from the inside, but you seem to not be listening to or comprehending anything that I am saying. It's just more finger pointing and it's worthless to the discussion.

 

[Stu]

I apologize for intruding on this riveting discussion

 

[muir]

I apologize for intruding on this riveting discussion

Go back and read the OP

he is talking about changes to the law being discussed by the UK tory government

Then read my posts and you will understand why the tories are talking about these things

If you have a 'discussion' about whether or not we should vote on CEO pay don't be suprised if the discussion then looks at the economic context to such an idea

 

[muir]

Sigh.

You just don't know how it works on a technical level and for that reason I just can't take the post seriously. You haven't seen it in real world application. You haven't seen what it takes inside a business to make things run. You haven't seen the amount of training, resources and staff it takes to do shit on a global level. It's too easy to point fingers from the outside in when you haven't even been on the inside.

You can point to the beast but you'll never understand it which is why I am having this debate with you. I have been outside it, and I have read about all the information you have already presented about the NWO YEARS ago. I used to study that stuff for hours upon hours on end. A lot of the information you bring to the table I already knew forever ago. So I have already entered into trade knowing what goes on. But it's a very, very different view from the inside, but you seem to not be listening to or comprehending anything that I am saying. It's just more finger pointing and it's worthless to the discussion.

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you about who knows the most about the NWO or who has known for the longest i couldn't give a shit

But i am saying that there is a move on by a network to take power and wealth from the people and that it is already affecting us all and that it is going to affect us all more

If you are siding with them thats fine but don't try and tell me that they're doing it out of kindess or for our best interests and that i don't really understand...i understand EXACTLY whats going on

 

[muir]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

Lee Williams


Tuesday 7 October 2014

What is TTIP? And six reasons why the answer should scare you

The trade negotiations are an assault on democracy. I would vote against them except… hang on a minute, I can’t

Have you heard about TTIP? If your answer is no, don’t get too worried; you’re not meant to have.

The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership is a series of trade negotiations being carried out mostly in secret between the EU and US. As a bi-lateral trade agreement, TTIP is about reducing the regulatory barriers to trade for big business, things like food safety law, environmental legislation, banking regulations and the sovereign powers of individual nations. It is, as John Hilary, Executive Director of campaign group War on Want, said: “An assault on European and US societies by transnational corporations.”
Since before TTIP negotiations began last February, the process has been secretive and undemocratic. This secrecy is on-going, with nearly all information on negotiations coming from leaked documents and Freedom of Information requests.
But worryingly, the covert nature of the talks may well be the least of our problems. Here are six other reasons why we should be scared of TTIP, very scared indeed:
1 The NHS
Public services, especially the NHS, are in the firing line. One of the main aims of TTIP is to open up Europe’s public health, education and water services to US companies. This could essentially mean the privatisation of the NHS.
The European Commission has claimed that public services will be kept out of TTIP. However, according to the Huffington Post, the UK Trade Minister Lord Livingston has admitted that talks about the NHS were still on the table.
2 Food and environmental safety
TTIP’s ‘regulatory convergence’ agenda will seek to bring EU standards on food safety and the environment closer to those of the US. But US regulations are much less strict, with 70 per cent of all processed foods sold in US supermarkets now containing genetically modified ingredients. By contrast, the EU allows virtually no GM foods. The US also has far laxer restrictions on the use of pesticides. It also uses growth hormones in its beef which are restricted in Europe due to links to cancer. US farmers have tried to have these restrictions lifted repeatedly in the past through the World Trade Organisation and it is likely that they will use TTIP to do so again.
The same goes for the environment, where the EU’s REACH regulations are far tougher on potentially toxic substances. In Europe a company has to prove a substance is safe before it can be used; in the US the opposite is true: any substance can be used until it is proven unsafe. As an example, the EU currently bans 1,200 substances from use in cosmetics; the US just 12.
3 Banking regulations
TTIP cuts both ways. The UK, under the influence of the all-powerful City of London, is thought to be seeking a loosening of US banking regulations. America’s financial rules are tougher than ours. They were put into place after the financial crisis to directly curb the powers of bankers and avoid a similar crisis happening again. TTIP, it is feared, will remove those restrictions, effectively handing all those powers back to the bankers.
4 Privacy
Remember ACTA (the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement)? It was thrown out by a massive majority in the European Parliament in 2012 after a huge public backlash against what was rightly seen as an attack on individual privacy where internet service providers would be required to monitor people’s online activity. Well, it’s feared that TTIP could be bringing back ACTA’s central elements, proving that if the democratic approach doesn’t work, there’s always the back door. An easing of data privacy laws and a restriction of public access to pharmaceutical companies’ clinical trials are also thought to be on the cards.
5 Jobs
The EU has admitted that TTIP will probably cause unemployment as jobs switch to the US, where labour standards and trade union rights are lower. It has even advised EU members to draw on European support funds to compensate for the expected unemployment.
Examples from other similar bi-lateral trade agreements around the world support the case for job losses. The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) between the US, Canada and Mexico caused the loss of one million US jobs over 12 years, instead of the hundreds of thousands of extra that were promised.
6 Democracy
TTIP’s biggest threat to society is its inherent assault on democracy. One of the main aims of TTIP is the introduction of Investor-State Dispute Settlements (ISDS), which allow companies to sue governments if those governments’ policies cause a loss of profits. In effect it means unelected transnational corporations can dictate the policies of democratically elected governments.
ISDSs are already in place in other bi-lateral trade agreements around the world and have led to such injustices as in Germany where Swedish energy company Vattenfall is suing the German government for billions of dollars over its decision to phase out nuclear power plants in the wake of the Fukushima disaster in Japan. Here we see a public health policy put into place by a democratically elected government being threatened by an energy giant because of a potential loss of profit. Nothing could be more cynically anti-democratic.
There are around 500 similar cases of businesses versus nations going on around the world at the moment and they are all taking place before ‘arbitration tribunals’ made up of corporate lawyers appointed on an ad hoc basis, which according to War on Want’s John Hilary, are “little more than kangaroo courts” with “a vested interest in ruling in favour of business.”

So I don’t know about you, but I’m scared. I would vote against TTIP, except… hang on a minute… I can’t. Like you, I have no say whatsoever in whether TTIP goes through or not. All I can do is tell as many people about it as possible, as I hope, will you. We may be forced to accept an attack on democracy but we can at least fight against the conspiracy of silence.