Zodiac Changes

solongotgon said:
You are seeking a rigid scientific answer and you will not get it. People have actually answered this query you present and you fail to receive it as answer because you have predetermined idea of the answer you wish to hear. Astrology is not a hard science is the answer. hence if you accept this; you are also accepting the notion that science will never be able to approve or disapprove astrology. It's like asking why does the Moon wane and wax? and why do people seem to be more tense, emotionally charged, or even feeling full of life or full of anything when the Moon is full? And why do people seem to end things, move or say goodbye when the Moon is waning?
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Wouldn't you say then that astrology is more akin to religion than say sociology?
 
Sali said:
Wouldn't you say then that astrology is more akin to religion than say sociology?
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Far from it. Astrology is in the interpretative ability of the astrologer. if you are referring to the planets pertaining to various human psyches as religious then it is a narrow view. There is a method of interpretation to astrology just like any system; but i would never put it together with that of organized religion. In my opinion organized religion does not give much to the individuals own interpretative understanding of God, spirituality; rather a dogmatic view of what should be followed and practiced. At least sociology offers a broader view of understanding. But no, astrology is in its own class. Also it does not try to "convert" others into studying it. it is a free tool for those who have the time to study an ancient system. What you gain or not get out of it is totally subjective. But if you have not spent few months trying to learn what it is all about before debating about it; its kind of pointless no?

I would not argue against a religious person or scientific person without knowing at least the basics of the system and trying to have an open understanding of how it works before questioning it further.
 
solongotgon said:
Far from it. Astrology is in the interpretative ability of the astrologer. if you are referring to the planets pertaining to various human psyches as religious then it is a narrow view. There is a method of interpretation to astrology just like any system; but i would never put it together with that of organized religion. In my opinion organized religion does not give much to the individuals own interpretative understanding of God, spirituality; rather a dogmatic view of what should be followed and practiced. At least sociology offers a broader view of understanding. But no, astrology is in its own class. Also it does not try to "convert" others into studying it. it is a free tool for those who have the time to study an ancient system. What you gain or not get out of it is totally subjective. But if you have not spent few months trying to learn what it is all about before debating about it; its kind of pointless no?

I would not argue against a religious person or scientific person without knowing at least the basics of the system and trying to have an open understanding of how it works before questioning it further.
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I think I've been slightly misunderstood. It's not my intent to argue against astrology, I'm simply trying to understand why anyone believes in it, Since it seems to be so widely accepted.

I think it would be ignorant not to question science or religion before trying to gain a further understanding in those subjects.
 
Sali said:
I think I've been slightly misunderstood. It's not my intent to argue against astrology, I'm simply trying to understand why anyone believes in it, Since it seems to be so widely accepted.

I think it would be ignorant not to question science or religion before trying to gain a further understanding in those subjects.
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Then you should have asked that question to begin with! I think the answer is probably personal for most people.

I can only give you my personal view. I seek a lot of answers; especially when I am confused. And i guess people look to religion, science, sociology, spirituality, eastern practices, meditation, etc. They all work and they all give answers. But we choose what tool will give us an answer that makes sense for us, makes us think and wonder and gives insight to grow. Astrology does that for me. While MBTI or religion may give answers to others and it works out well. Its a completely subjective experience.
 
Sali said:
I'm simply trying to understand why anyone believes in it, Since it seems to be so widely accepted.
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Because it works for me. It's as simple as that. It's the same answer you will get for most people who follow any particular spiritual, religious, or metaphysical thought.

If it does not make sense for you, and you do not see purpose in it, then that is fine.
 
AWWW...why did you guys have to have this conversation when I was gone?:m040:

[MENTION=884]solongotgon[/MENTION] and [MENTION=3691]CorLeonis[/MENTION] ...you guys said everything in such a concise, yet eloquent manner that I don't think I have anything left to add. Except...you both rock!:m046:

P.S. But also... you suck.
 
Sali said:
Wouldn't you say then that astrology is more akin to religion than say sociology?
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I would not. But then again, I was raised as a Roman Catholic, so I'm extremely damaged.

To me it's closer to psychology, unless you're using it for predictions. Like any tool you use to assess yourself, you must find your own truth within. As has been stated here before: no test can tell you who you are. Neither does a natal chart. It's an ever-spinning wheel that suggests possibilities and gives you guidance. But you're still driving. (Random...I think I just compared astrology to OnStar! LOL)

Even here, with so many infj's around, we are all different...speaking different languages (if this were untrue, we sensitive, intuitive types wouldn't be apologizing to one another for misunderstandings on such a regular basis, LOL again!). Astrology is merely a symbolic language that resonates with some of us. It's neither pseudo-science, religion, nor astronomy's senile, superstitious mother. You can learn to speak the language, but you don't have to.

When people ask: do you believe in astrology? I tell them NO. I don't believe it, worship it or allow myself to be enslaved by dogmatic bs. I STUDY astrology and decide for myself what methods work for me through experimentation. I do not read daily horoscopes. It's not the foundation of my existence. But I do use it as a tool to better understand myself and the people closest to me. Couldn't this world use more of that?
 
dream echo said:
I would not. But then again, I was raised as a Roman Catholic, so I'm extremely damaged.

To me it's closer to psychology, unless you're using it for predictions. Like any tool you use to assess yourself, you must find your own truth within. As has been stated here before: no test can tell you who you are. Neither does a natal chart. It's an ever-spinning wheel that suggests possibilities and gives you guidance. But you're still driving. (Random...I think I just compared astrology to OnStar! LOL)

Even here, with so many infj's around, we are all different...speaking different languages (if this were untrue, we sensitive, intuitive types wouldn't be apologizing to one another for misunderstandings on such a regular basis, LOL again!). Astrology is merely a symbolic language that resonates with some of us. It's neither pseudo-science, religion, nor astronomy's senile, superstitious mother. You can learn to speak the language, but you don't have to.

When people ask: do you believe in astrology? I tell them NO. I don't believe it, worship it or allow myself to be enslaved by dogmatic bs. I STUDY astrology and decide for myself what methods work for me through experimentation. I do not read daily horoscopes. It's not the foundation of my existence. But I do use it as a tool to better understand myself and the people closest to me. Couldn't this world use more of that?
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LOVE this. :D
 
dream echo said:
I would not. But then again, I was raised as a Roman Catholic, so I'm extremely damaged.

To me it's closer to psychology, unless you're using it for predictions. Like any tool you use to assess yourself, you must find your own truth within. As has been stated here before: no test can tell you who you are. Neither does a natal chart. It's an ever-spinning wheel that suggests possibilities and gives you guidance. But you're still driving. (Random...I think I just compared astrology to OnStar! LOL)

Even here, with so many infj's around, we are all different...speaking different languages (if this were untrue, we sensitive, intuitive types wouldn't be apologizing to one another for misunderstandings on such a regular basis, LOL again!). Astrology is merely a symbolic language that resonates with some of us. It's neither pseudo-science, religion, nor astronomy's senile, superstitious mother. You can learn to speak the language, but you don't have to.

When people ask: do you believe in astrology? I tell them NO. I don't believe it, worship it or allow myself to be enslaved by dogmatic bs. I STUDY astrology and decide for myself what methods work for me through experimentation. I do not read daily horoscopes. It's not the foundation of my existence. But I do use it as a tool to better understand myself and the people closest to me. Couldn't this world use more of that?
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But you must have a belief that it does help you understand more about yourself, I guess that is my true hang up with it, I think I would think differently about it if it was a system where I decided which planet positions I believed I most related to rather than it being decided based on an arbitrary chart. I guess I could do that and say "this is my birth chart but this other one is the birth cart I actually relate to." It doesn't seem to be a symptomatic system, or do I have that wrong?
 
So.... now Im a Sagittarius? o.o

hm... I don't know if I quite believe this, but Ive never really paid a LOT of attention to my zodiac sign... I think Capricorn is more...me, though. Rather than Sagittarius. ^^
 
Sali said:
But you must have a belief that it does help you understand more about yourself, I guess that is my true hang up with it, I think I would think differently about it if it was a system where I decided which planet positions I believed I most related to rather than it being decided based on an arbitrary chart. I guess I could do that and say "this is my birth chart but this other one is the birth cart I actually relate to." It doesn't seem to be a symptomatic system, or do I have that wrong?
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Hmm.

Well, this is kind of an interesting response, because you DO get into the "ruling planet"... or the planet that dominates your chart, in strength. You don't choose it, no... but it is there, and is dependent on the rest of your chart.

Also keep in mind that the planets are supposed to relate to different aspects of your personality, so only looking at one aspect of your personality, and saying, "that's all of me!" would not be useful.
 
Sali said:
But you must have a belief that it does help you understand more about yourself, I guess that is my true hang up with it, I think I would think differently about it if it was a system where I decided which planet positions I believed I most related to rather than it being decided based on an arbitrary chart. I guess I could do that and say "this is my birth chart but this other one is the birth cart I actually relate to." It doesn't seem to be a symptomatic system, or do I have that wrong?
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Nope. Actually, I don't believe it. I originally started studying astrology to disprove it. I simply have yet to do so. I discover new things everyday that astound me with this feeling of rightness...a synchronicity I can't explain with words.

As far as a natal chart being arbitrary, I disagree. I fail to understand how you could feel that choosing your planetary positions yourself would be less arbitrary. There's lots more to this area of study than mere planetary sign and positions. You could spend a lifetime with this subject and still have barely scratched the surface.

So for me, astrology has become something akin to a journey. I suspect it will be a lifelong one.

Yes, I'm still interested in MBTI types, and there's much I have to learn here, I'm sure. But why should I limit myself to one system? I read tarot cards. I occasionally do numerology. Just different languages, my friend, some more lyrical than others. (I wanna be MULTILINGUAL!!!)

As for your last question, I'm not understanding precisely what it is you are asking.
 
TigersGoRAWR said:
So.... now Im a Sagittarius? o.o

hm... I don't know if I quite believe this, but Ive never really paid a LOT of attention to my zodiac sign... I think Capricorn is more...me, though. Rather than Sagittarius. ^^
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Nobody's sign has changed. If you were a Cappie before, you're still one now. If you were Sag, you're still a Sag.

When is your birthday? If you wanna tell. You don't have to though.
 
dream echo said:
Nope. Actually, I don't believe it. I originally started studying astrology to disprove it. I simply have yet to do so. I discover new things everyday that astound me with this feeling of rightness...a synchronicity I can't explain with words.

As far as a natal chart being arbitrary, I disagree. I fail to understand how you could feel that choosing your planetary positions yourself would be less arbitrary. There's lots more to this area of study than mere planetary sign and positions. You could spend a lifetime with this subject and still have barely scratched the surface.

So for me, astrology has become something akin to a journey. I suspect it will be a lifelong one.

Yes, I'm still interested in MBTI types, and there's much I have to learn here, I'm sure. But why should I limit myself to one system? I read tarot cards. I occasionally do numerology. Just different languages, my friend, some more lyrical than others. (I wanna be MULTILINGUAL!!!)

As for your last question, I'm not understanding precisely what it is you are asking.
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Well the main reason I like things like the MBTI over things like astrology is because it makes a lot more logical sense to me (Silly Ti :D) it seems to me that astrology is somewhat fatalistic, it's not saying you are this way but it is saying you're kind of this way and that is something I don't like. I think I am a better judge of who I am than the stars and planets are. I guess I find it too limiting, I've actually heard people say things like "oh, I'd never date a virgo" or "I can't be friends with a Sagittarius"
 
Sali said:
it seems to me that astrology is somewhat fatalistic, it's not saying you are this way but it is saying you're kind of this way and that is something I don't like. "
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Ummm.....last i checked MBTI says this also.
 
Sali said:
My MBTI type is based upon my own personal conjectures though, my birth chart is not.
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So you typed yourself based on what you think your personality is?
 
solongotgon said:
So you typed yourself based on what you think your personality is?
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Not exactly, I didn't stop until I found one that fit though. I was originally typed INTJ. The difference to me is that MBTI is not at all fatalistic, you didn't get assigned an MBTI at birth and told it was what you where supposed to be, rather I became who I am and then used the MBTI to to access which frame I fit best on. If astrology was the same way, in other words if it worked based upon an assessment of your behaviors I would feel differently about it. As far as I can tell it assesses nothing and takes all element of your choices out of the equation. I think choice is what makes humans, human.
 
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