2nd Amendment - what's the point?

sprinkles said:
[MENTION=9809]La Sagna[/MENTION]

Also I like privacy and it's only good intentions when I try to extend that respect to other people. It's not a bias or an insult. It's me offering the same courtesy which I would like to have. The fact that you're ok with it doesn't automagically make me ok with it.
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How did I invade your privacy?
 
Say the US government did turn on its people and government retained the support of the military. How would the citizens of the United States be able to stand up to their own military and government, with all the hardware at its disposal? We are talking bombers, missiles, aircraft carriers and a whole host of other "weapons of mass destruction" too numerous to name in this post.

Could the citizens (armed but untrained citizens) "stand up" to this out of control government, wrestle power away from it and reinstall a new government? No chance.

That's why this justification for an armed populace makes no sense today. Many things about the U.S. Constitution makes no sense when you try to apply them to the present day. If its not a document that can be changed and interpreted with the times then what good is it?
 
La Sagna said:
Yes, I realize that it was after I put up the definition of Americentrism. You obviously had a strong reaction to that. Maybe my reaction was a little strong, although I don't see it as too harsh. I just think that it is harmful for anybody to be too insular or navel gazing and that as a generality Americans have a tendency to be guilty of that. It's not to say that there aren't people in other countries who are like that. There are plenty in Canada who are, and it's no better. I believe in healthy, open and respectful discussion to form better understanding of what is going on in the world and that is one reason that I was asking the question I was. It's a perspective that I have a difficult time understanding and I like to understand what drives people to have such strong beliefs. In the case of guns in the US it's almost an emotional reaction that people have. I find it interesting. It's not even about forming an opinion in this case. I do form opinions but they tend to be very fluid and open to different perspectives.

Really, I was just curious about how the other countries would be viewed in regards to their gun policies. I'm beginning to think that you are right and they are just ignored, which is an answer in itself I guess, which leads back to the US being insular.
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Why is it necessary to think something? Is it not sufficient to know? We have to form sentiments as well? I don't understand why.

Frankly I have too much going on to try and form a thought about anything and everything. We have enough on our plates with things that are immediately pertinent.
 
brightmoon said:
Say the US government did turn on its people and government retained the support of the military. How would the citizens of the United States be able to stand up to their own military and government, with all the hardware at its disposal? We are talking bombers, missiles, aircraft carriers and a whole host of other "weapons of mass destruction" too numerous to name in this post.

Could the citizens (armed but untrained citizens) "stand up" to this out of control government, wrestle power away from it and reinstall a new government? No chance.

That's why this justification for an armed populace makes no sense today. Many things about the U.S. Constitution makes no sense when you try to apply them to the present day. If its not a document that can be changed and interpreted with the times then what good is it?
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Do you really think the military (who are people with friends and family members) are just going to annihilate their own populace because they were told to do so? Conflicts are not simply a matter of compliance.
 
brightmoon said:
Say the US government did turn on its people and government retained the support of the military. How would the citizens of the United States be able to stand up to their own military and government, with all the hardware at its disposal? We are talking bombers, missiles, aircraft carriers and a whole host of other "weapons of mass destruction" too numerous to name in this post.

Could the citizens (armed but untrained citizens) "stand up" to this out of control government, wrestle power away from it and reinstall a new government? No chance.

That's why this justification for an armed populace makes no sense today. Many things about the U.S. Constitution makes no sense when you try to apply them to the present day. If its not a document that can be changed and interpreted with the times then what good is it?
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Are you suggesting that there are only two options, that if we couldn't achieve victory then we should lay down and be walked over?

If the government did get out of control I would rather die fighting it than lay down and accept it. No victory is even necessary.

Patrick Henry didn't say "We should only try if we can actually win." He said "Give me liberty, or give me death!"
 
ezra said:
What do you mean by this?
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It's between having a viewpoint or simply knowing that something is the case.

Like with the Muhammad cartoons. You remember those right? You can have awareness that there's a Muhammad cartoon in a magazine. The awareness of it is neutral. However it's another step entirely to say that it shouldn't be there, as a lot of people tried to do, I'm sure you recall. Do you understand the difference?
 
Military families in America are some of the most fervent supporters of the 2nd amendment there are. The assumption that the military would back the government's revocation of it is highly unlikely. If anything, this is part of the reason WHY America is unlikely to see any sort of reform anytime soon.
 
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sprinkles said:
It's between having a viewpoint or simply knowing that something is the case.

Like with the Muhammad cartoons. You remember those right? You can have awareness that there's a Muhammad cartoon in a magazine. The awareness of it is neutral. However it's another step entirely to say that it shouldn't be there, as a lot of people tried to do, I'm sure you recall. Do you understand the difference?
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I think so, but wasn't it the viewpoint that made the cartoons in the first place?
 
ezra said:
I think so, but wasn't it the viewpoint that made the cartoons in the first place?
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Yes but that's besides the point. I'm using that to illustrate the difference between knowing that something is the case and having a viewpoint about it. The purpose is not to examine the cause of it.
 
brightmoon said:
Say the US government did turn on its people and government retained the support of the military. How would the citizens of the United States be able to stand up to their own military and government, with all the hardware at its disposal? We are talking bombers, missiles, aircraft carriers and a whole host of other "weapons of mass destruction" too numerous to name in this post.

Could the citizens (armed but untrained citizens) "stand up" to this out of control government, wrestle power away from it and reinstall a new government? No chance.

That's why this justification for an armed populace makes no sense today. Many things about the U.S. Constitution makes no sense when you try to apply them to the present day. If its not a document that can be changed and interpreted with the times then what good is it?
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Ahh....but you aren't American now are you? We don't know what we're capable of...but I assure you I know many many who would stand against the tyranny of our government if it finally slapped the truth in their faces.

That's funny how you say the full might of the US military would be pointed at the citizens. Now why on earth would the corporate capitalists - who are exacerbating this issue - want to blow up America and it's assets of land and infrastructure which the corporations own? There's no way they'll allow that to happen.

Personally I do not think the regular military would fight against its own people. Nowwww....the special trained forces is another topic.

All this fight about taking away guns and rights is smoke and mirrors to what's really going on quietly behind American backs. They will never take away guns because they want people shooting each other. It makes people fearful...and that's the goal...leading to control....of the minds.
 
Kgal said:
Ahh....but you aren't American now are you? We don't know what we're capable of...but I assure you I know many many who would stand against the tyranny of our government if it finally slapped the truth in their faces.

That's funny how you say the full might of the US military would be pointed at the citizens. Now why on earth would the corporate capitalists - who are exacerbating this issue - want to blow up America and it's assets of land and infrastructure which the corporations own? There's no way they'll allow that to happen.

Personally I do not think the regular military would fight against its own people. Nowwww....the special trained forces is another topic.

All this fight about taking away guns and rights is smoke and mirrors to what's really going on quietly behind American backs. They will never take away guns because they want people shooting each other. It makes people fearful...and that's the goal...leading to control....of the minds.
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Not to mention that defeatism isn't really a good basis for anything.

Does a runner give up because they're in last place? Does an artist stop painting because they can never be Rembrandt?

I have to be honest and say that not winning should be the dead last consideration, if it even comes in at all.
 
To be polemic: What would it take for you to reconsider the 2nd amendment? Currently we're seeing record numbers of school shootings, accidental shootings and more weapons in the hands of crazy people. What event could cause you to give up your weapons (if any)?
 
ezra said:
To be polemic: What would it take for you to reconsider the 2nd amendment? Currently we're seeing record numbers of school shootings, accidental shootings and more weapons in the hands of crazy people. What event could cause you to give up your weapons (if any)?
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The 2nd Amendment is more than "the right to have guns" so this isn't as easy to answer as you might think. For example non-lethal weapons could also fall under it.

As [MENTION=1939]Stu[/MENTION] rightly pointed out earlier, the right to bear arms or have a militia is not necessarily interpreted as the right to have 10 assault rifles. Support of the 2nd Amendment DOES NOT automatically equate to being loose with guns.
 
[MENTION=5601]ezra[/MENTION]
Also "give up your guns" is a kind of loaded and presumptuous statement. I for one don't even own a gun.
 
Matt3737 said:
Military families in America are some of the most fervent supporters of the 2nd amendment there are so the assumption that the military would back the government's revocation of it is highly unlikely. If anything, this is part of the reason WHY America is unlikely to see any sort of reform anytime soon.
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That mentallity is not across the board...I grew up in a multi-generational military family...Hell, even Grandma was an Army nurse.
I joined the USCG when I was 19ish...training to use weapons of all sorts.
I don't fear our government taking people's gun away...it's a scenario that will never happen here in America...not anytime soon anyhow.
But there are some of us who are very familiar with guns, their use, etc. who feel we have a serious problem with the availability of guns should one choose to obtain one.
And once again, I'm not blaming this issue of mass/school shootings on guns alone...that is a silly argument used by paranoid NRA parrots.

Clearly something needs to be done...and the gun lobbies idea of arming more private citizens is just perpetuating the mentality of this being a wild-west shoot out where the good guys with guns will always prevail.
Ha!
 
Skarekrow said:
That mentallity is not across the board...I grew up in a multi-generational military family...Hell, even Grandma was an Army nurse.
I joined the USCG when I was 19ish...training to use weapons of all sorts.
I don't fear our government taking people's gun away...it's a scenario that will never happen here in America...not anytime soon anyhow.
But there are some of us who are very familiar with guns, their use, etc. who feel we have a serious problem with the availability of guns should one choose to obtain one.
And once again, I'm not blaming this issue of mass/school shootings on guns alone...that is a silly argument used by paranoid NRA parrots.

Clearly something needs to be done...and the gun lobbies idea of arming more private citizens is just perpetuating the mentality of this being a wild-west shoot out where the good guys with guns will always prevail.
Ha!
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It still seems like the Wild West to me. A more technologically advanced and densely populated one. There's a reason that the camera shares metaphorical significance with the gun.

war-and-media-cartoon.jpg
 
sprinkles said:
[MENTION=5601]ezra[/MENTION]
Also "give up your guns" is a kind of loaded and presumptuous statement. I for one don't even own a gun.
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I'm trying my best to ask questions in a way so that you won't get offended by them.
My project is failing miserably.
 
Skarekrow said:
That mentallity is not across the board...I grew up in a multi-generational military family...Hell, even Grandma was an Army nurse.
I joined the USCG when I was 19ish...training to use weapons of all sorts.
I don't fear our government taking people's gun away...it's a scenario that will never happen here in America...not anytime soon anyhow.
But there are some of us who are very familiar with guns, their use, etc. who feel we have a serious problem with the availability of guns should one choose to obtain one.
And once again, I'm not blaming this issue of mass/school shootings on guns alone...that is a silly argument used by paranoid NRA parrots.

Clearly something needs to be done...and the gun lobbies idea of arming more private citizens is just perpetuating the mentality of this being a wild-west shoot out where the good guys with guns will always prevail.
Ha!
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This is why I kept deleting my posts in the other thread because I don't want to be lumped in with that bullshit. It ended up happening anyway though.
 
ezra said:
I'm trying my best to ask questions in a way so that you won't get offended by them.
My project is failing miserably.
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Well I hope you understand that we're the ones who have to deal with this shit and that there's a lot of ill will floating around, which means that questions are not just questions.

When you see this discussion take place hundreds of times over the years, you start to see patterns emerge and form sentiments, especially when you're used to people jumping on you the moment you open your mouth almost as a matter of course. And forget even trying to be moderate on the issue because then both sides hate you.
 
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