Abortion

IndigoSensor said:
Because that directly effects another person.

(yes I know you can turn this on it's head because a baby is another person, but I already explained my view of this on one of the previous pages).
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what about the father?
 
Why does anyone care about abortion...what people do in their lives is none of my business. I don't care either way.
 
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Billy said:
I'm saying that its never "acceptable" but its an necessary evil of life we cannot escape. In that way all human hands are dirty. even paying taxes we fund murder, if not in execution of convicts or abortions, more directly by enabling our government to massacre in our countries interests.
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it's hardly necessary though, and neither is paying taxes to fund the murderous policies of others. abortion is simply ONE option among many, just like execution, just like war. it's not necessary the same way as eating or breathing or whatever is, it's necessary in the way that you'd choose to drive a car instead of walk 10 miles to work every morning; it's practical. if tomorrow scientists came up with a better contraceptive (for example) then abortion would lose its practicality & its status as a viable alternative and people would opt for the new drug instead. or alternatively if pregnancy and having babies suddenly became in vogue, or extremely cheap for some reason, then the practicality of getting an abortion would again decrease, and people would stop doing it. point is, it's less a necessity than a personal choice, and that has moral implications.
 
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Artinella said:
Why does anyone care about abortion...what people do in their lives is none of my business. I don't care either way.
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it's what people do with others live's, that's why it's an issue.
 
Artinella said:
Why does anyone care about abortion...what people do in their lives is none of my business. I don't care either way.
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couple of reasons:

1. the issue may confront you or someone you care about in the future; better to have thought about it at least a little before then
2. like @Barnabas said, abortion affects the lives of human beings like ourselves (or not, depending on whether you consider fetuses "human"). if it was never discussed, that would indirectly permit less scrupulous individuals to do whatever they deemed necessary... killing very late term fetuses for example, or even newborns.

i guess even murders that don't affect you are kind of unnecessary to talk about... but i think if we as a society are to progress in our social and ethical values, then talking about them would be the most direct way. ideas challenge set beliefs, and beliefs inspire practical solutions. people don't just do things, after all, they do them because they believe certain options are more correct over others, and getting to the reasons WHY they hold those beliefs would be fundamental to determining (and affecting) their legitimacy.
 
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April said:
it's hardly necessary though, and neither is paying taxes to fund the murderous policies of others. abortion is simply ONE option among many, just like execution, just like war. it's not necessary the same way as eating or breathing or whatever is, it's necessary in the way that you'd choose to drive a car instead of walk 10 miles to work every morning; it's practical. if tomorrow scientists came up with a better contraceptive (for example) then abortion would lose its practicality & its status as a viable alternative and people would opt for the new drug instead. or alternatively if pregnancy and having babies suddenly became in vogue, or extremely cheap for some reason, then the practicality of getting an abortion would again decrease, and people would stop doing it. point is, it's less a necessity than a personal choice, and that has moral implications.
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Lets put it this way, just being alive, our lives effect other lives, some human, some animal, some insect, some plant, just wearing jewels in your rings and earrings, chocolate in your dessert, salt on your eggs, comes at the cost of murder somewhere. Where it was the civil war in Africa to get the diamonds or gold, the murdering of Native Americans in Brazil or who's back the salt was hauled out on in some salt pit, it cost lives for our habits. Our conveniences, abortion, execution and war are just more direct forms of murder. We are so locked into a system that crushes humans away from us that its impossible to get out, and try not paying taxes. Basically The air you breath, the water you drink and the land you sleep on once belonged to some other group, we reap the benefits of murder every single second of our lives, so people are going to have to excuse me if I look at abortion etc as murder, because it really is. Murder is the willful killing of another human life. Just because 1 was stopped with knife or bullet and 1 was simply stopped from forming past a certain point, is irrelevant, stopped, killed and murdered are all the same. And I believe its truly pathetic for people in the world to sit by and pretend for even a second that its not. If we are going to be committing infanticide and murdering babies in the womb, then for fucks sake, don't dehumanize them, let them have their respect. I am not telling anyone what they have to do with their bodies or the bodies of their unborn children, but hiding behind semantics is even more evil then the murdering itself. Thats some Eichmann bullshit. We are all murderers, simply because of the lives we lead, turning blind eye to reality is, imo utterly pathetic, at least lets have the balls to own our disgusting habits.

Oh and a side note, not that it really matters. But I do believe all humans are guilty of murder and having blood on their hands, EXCEPT the ones we kill in the womb who haven't had the chance yet. How ironic is that?
 
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Billy said:
Lets put it this way, just being alive, our lives effect other lives, some human, some animal, some insect, some plant, just wearing jewels in your rings and earrings, chocolate in your dessert, salt on your eggs, comes at the cost of murder somewhere. Where it was the civil war in Africa to get the diamonds or gold, the murdering of Native Americans in Brazil or who's back the salt was hauled out on in some salt pit, it cost lives for our habits. Our conveniences, abortion, execution and war are just more direct forms of murder. We are so locked into a system that crushes humans away from us that its impossible to get out, and try not paying taxes. Basically The air you breath, the water you drink and the land you sleep on once belonged to some other group, we reap the benefits of murder every single second of our lives, so people are going to have to excuse me if I look at abortion etc as murder, because it really is. Murder is the willful killing of another human life. Just because 1 was stopped with knife or bullet and 1 was simply stopped from forming past a certain point, is irrelevant, stopped, killed and murdered are all the same. And I believe its truly pathetic for people in the world to sit by and pretend for even a second that its not. If we are going to be committing infanticide and murdering babies in the womb, then for fucks sake, don't dehumanize them, let them have their respect. I am not telling anyone what they have to do with their bodies or the bodies of their unborn children, but hiding behind semantics is even more evil then the murdering itself. Thats some Ichmann bullshit. We are all murderers, simply because of the lives we lead, turning blind eye to reality is, imo utterly pathetic, at least lets have the balls to own our disgusting habits.

Oh and a side note, not that it really matters. But I do believe all humans are guilty of murder and having blood on their hands, EXCEPT the ones we kill in the womb who haven't had the chance yet. How ironic is that?
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that's a pretty drastic way of putting it, but i'd have to concur. we do & have benefitted from the murders of others, if only very indirectly.

also, cause you've got me curious, if a person hired a hitman to kill someone they had a grudge against, would the hitman be the murderer or the one who hired them? to whom would the responsibility fall on (or mostly fall on?). i'm wondering about how divorced you can be from an act that eventually results in murder to still be responsible for it. the people who designed the atom bomb, were they responsible for the deaths in hiroshima & nagasaki, or the ones who decided it should be launched, or the ones who pressed the button to release it? (also does it even really matter, since the people are dead? perhaps assigning responsibility & ascertaining who's to blame is just to assuage one's own guilty (or not) conscience, rather than benefit the victim (or future victims) in any way :/)
 
April said:
that's a pretty drastic way of putting it, but i'd have to concur. we do & have benefitted from the murders of others, if only very indirectly.

also, cause you've got me curious, if a person hired a hitman to kill someone they had a grudge against, would the hitman be the murderer or the one who hired them? to whom would the responsibility fall on (or mostly fall on?). i'm wondering about how divorced you can be from an act that eventually results in murder to still be responsible for it. the people who designed the atom bomb, were they responsible for the deaths in hiroshima & nagasaki, or the ones who decided it should be launched, or the ones who pressed the button to release it? (also does it even really matter, since the people are dead? perhaps assigning responsibility & ascertaining who's to blame is just to assuage one's own guilty (or not) conscience, rather than benefit the victim (or future victims) in any way :/)
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They're all equally guilty. The executioner is not more guilty then the person who gave the order. In your example the hitman AND the contract maker are equally murderous. And I dont think you can be indirectly a murderer, you are a murder, we all are. Our demand for a certain standard of living equates to a contract by exploitative other persons to kill on our behalf.

THere really is no divorcing from the situation... which is why I dont look at things in such a black and white way. Nobody is truly innocent other then those who have yet to actually act. (infants etc) Humans arent inherently good or evil, nothing is ever set in stone. We kill with every breath we take, every step a massacre... we need to all come to grips with that. Thats not the hard part, the hard part is once you understand that trying to out-project the negative force you inject into the world with positive. Because we are capable of both, we do both, unbeknownst to ourselves, the trick is to own all of it and a least TRY to do what we feel is better for the species overall, to do whats best for life. And the only way we can define that is internally. Its not always easy to live by a code, but once people do, the code becomes a rather important aspect to their identity, to live beyond petty self interests as much as possible. And while I am not pretending to be perfection or even close to perfect I am a severely flawed individual, even more so then most people I know, I at least accept my role in life and own that my existence causes pain and hurt as well as pleasure and love for others. I dont think I could ever go back to living in ignorant bliss of what my existence creates, pretending that I am somehow GOOD while others are BAD.
 
Billy said:
THere really is no divorcing from the situation... which is why I dont look at things in such a black and white way. Nobody is truly innocent other then those who have yet to actually act. (infants etc) Humans arent inherently good or evil, nothing is ever set in stone. We kill with every breath we take, every step a massacre... we need to all come to grips with that. Thats not the hard part, the hard part is once you understand that trying to out-project the negative force you inject into the world with positive. Because we are capable of both, we do both, unbeknownst to ourselves, the trick is to own all of it and a least TRY to do what we feel is better for the species overall, to do whats best for life. And the only way we can define that is internally. Its not always easy to live by a code, but once people do, the code becomes a rather important aspect to their identity, to live beyond petty self interests as much as possible. And while I am not pretending to be perfection or even close to perfect I am a severely flawed individual, even more so then most people I know, I at least accept my role in life and own that my existence causes pain and hurt as well as pleasure and love for others. I dont think I could ever go back to living in ignorant bliss of what my existence creates, pretending that I am somehow GOOD while others are BAD.
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Ok, well I agree with your point, but don't people mean something very different when they call someone a murderer? (Or is this not what you are saying?) Isn't there some meaning lost if we call everyone a murderer? And isn't there a difference between murdering something without consciouness (a zygote, arguably) vs. murdering a conscious human being?

I find it rather silly to label everyone as bad.
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(Subsequent, unrelated post deleted due to being off-topic.)
 
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So anyway, about abortion?
 
DimensionX said:
So anyway, about abortion?
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I'd rather talk about bananas. Seriously is it me or are they perfectly designed for humans and apes to eat them? This can be no accident.
 
So, anyway, the topic for this thread is:

April said:
Abortion, are you for or against? At what point would you say life "officially" begins?
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If everyone is a murderer then no one is. That theory, everyone is a murderer, is based on what qualifies everyone else as murderers: "Do you know how many people had to die for that chef salad you had for lunch?"

Mothers have to eat to keep a fetus alive. If she eats that blood stained chef salad, her child is technically a murderer.

If everyone is a murderer, and I can see where that can be true, then no one is. It's unavoidable.
 
christmas said:
If everyone is a murderer then no one is. That theory, everyone is a murderer, is based on what qualifies everyone else as murderers: "Do you know how many people had to die for that chef salad you had for lunch?"

Mothers have to eat to keep a fetus alive. If she eats that blood stained chef salad, her child is technically a murderer.

If everyone is a murderer, and I can see where that can be true, then no one is. It's unavoidable.
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So, in other words, you say that the argument that everyone is a murderer weakens the argument against abortion because this murder we are referring to is as commonplace as what people do to eat a salad?
 
KazeCraven said:
So, in other words, you say that the argument that everyone is a murderer weakens the argument against abortion because this murder we are referring to is as commonplace as what people do to eat a salad?
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the kind of murder Billy is describing, yep
 
KazeCraven said:
Ok, well I agree with your point, but don't people mean something very different when they call someone a murderer? (Or is this not what you are saying?) Isn't there some meaning lost if we call everyone a murderer? And isn't there a difference between murdering something without consciouness (a zygote, arguably) vs. murdering a conscious human being?

I find it rather silly to label everyone as bad.
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(Subsequent, unrelated post deleted due to being off-topic.)
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No I mean literally, everyone is a murderer and I didn't call everyone bad, in fact I made it clearer by saying people aren't bad OR good. And again I ask you, if its ok to kill a zygote, is it ok to kill someone mentally disabled? Is there a difference? You tell me, I already said, according to my beliefs, there is no distinction, human is human, whether fully formed or not.
 
88chaz88 said:
I'd rather talk about bananas. Seriously is it me or are they perfectly designed for humans and apes to eat them? This can be no accident.
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I saw something on TV one time, a Christian Evangelist actually who made that point, with the way the corners of a banana fit perfectly into the folds of a human hand.

I think its just a coincidence though, if anything Bananas are probably older then humans or apes, so our hands would have had to evolve to fit the fruit, but then Bananas dont grow naturally in Africa do they? Or did they ever? I'm not sure.
 
christmas said:
If everyone is a murderer then no one is. That theory, everyone is a murderer, is based on what qualifies everyone else as murderers: "Do you know how many people had to die for that chef salad you had for lunch?"

Mothers have to eat to keep a fetus alive. If she eats that blood stained chef salad, her child is technically a murderer.

If everyone is a murderer, and I can see where that can be true, then no one is. It's unavoidable.
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Hmm, well maybe, but then the child is being force fed through his mothers umbilical chord.
 
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