Abortion

[DevilDoll]

For you, absolutely nothing(correct me if I'm wrong). So if I can kill a human that is literally a few days old because it's existence is an inconvenience, why can't I shoot the guy who brought 15 items into the 10 items or less lane at wal-mart.


But if human life does have inherent value, then that life should be protected till it can protect it'self.

You are assuming here that women who have abortions do it because the pregnancy is inconvenient. While this is sometimes the case (I met a women who had five abortions. It was a form of birth control to her. Really fucked up), it is not always. Take into consideration the teenager who get's pregnant. That's not only a physical strain, but a massive emotional strain that someone at that age is no necessarily equipped to handle. Forcing a woman to have a child just because you believe she should is not right. It can be detrimental to her, and she is the only person capable of judging whether the pregnancy is a mere inconvenience or an actual threat to her physical and mental well being. You have to put yourself in her shoes, but then again... you won't. You'll put yourself in a pair of nice pumps and still spout the same opinion. Which is your right. However, it just seems very limited to me.

 

[Barnabas]

You are assuming here that women who have abortions do it because the pregnancy is inconvenient. While this is sometimes the case (I met a women who had five abortions. It was a form of birth control to her. Really fucked up), it is not always. Take into consideration the teenager who get's pregnant. That's not only a physical strain, but a massive emotional strain that someone at that age is no necessarily equipped to handle. Forcing a woman to have a child just because you believe she should is not right. It can be detrimental to her, and she is the only person capable of judging whether the pregnancy is a mere inconvenience or an actual threat to her physical and mental well being. You have to put yourself in her shoes, but then again... you won't. You'll put yourself in a pair of nice pumps and still spout the same opinion. Which is your right. However, it just seems very limited to me.

I believe that if the child is dangerous to the mother(as decided by a doctor) then the mother has the right to terminate the infant. I'll even go with the idea of rape and incestuous infants should be given the option of termination, due to the emotional damage it could due to both the mother and the child.

But for the 16 year old girl who couldn't take time to use her birth control or make sure that the guy was wearing a condom, she has to live with that decision (and so should the father, in whatever capacity he can).

The ugly truth about abortion is that Babies don't actually ruin lives(most of the time) and the truth is that most unplanned pregnancies come from people who refused or forgot to take precautions to prevent the pregnancy. Why should the Child have to die because some couple are idiots? How on earth is that fair to the child?

You'll call me narrow minded but what say you, why can't you put yourself in the child's shoes. Put yourself in my shoes.




Also let's not forget that just because the mother gives birth to the child, doesn't mean she as to keep the child. She could easily(or not so easily, depending on the person) put the child up for adoption so that a loving and capable family could raise the child.

 

[Matariki]

Ah, well you see, I have the freedom to live my life how I see fit without the fear of egotistic being sending me to hell and as such don't see stupid things as worshiping something else, working on Sabbath, or not honouring your parents (whatever the fuck that means) as morally corrupt.

I haven't stolen, raped, nor murdered and neither has a good portion of the human race.

I feel as I'm being misunderstood here. For starters I apologize if anything I said offend you, It was not my intention to do so.
Its saddening for me to see how many people want to have a go at me as soon as I state my views, and yet I try my hardest to understand from other peoples point of view and explain to people in a way that they would understand in, to why I believe what I believe in.

I have stated my views and have answered questions that were geared towards me, all I receive in return is aggression. I feel as I am wasting my time posting, my presence as an individual is obviously not welcomed here.

 

[88chaz88]

I feel as I'm being misunderstood here. For starters I apologize if anything I said offend you, It was not my intention to do so.
Its saddening for me to see how many people want to have a go at me as soon as I state my views, and yet I try my hardest to understand from other peoples point of view and explain to people in a way that they would understand in, to why I believe what I believe in.

I have stated my views and have answered questions that were geared towards me, all I receive in return is aggression. I feel as I am wasting my time posting, my presence as an individual is obviously not welcomed here.

I'm sorry if I come off as aggressive, I happen to be in a rather pissy mood at the moment and my arguments usually lean towards the aggressive edge anyway. I assure you it is nothing personal against you.

As for slating your beliefs, it's not really been my intention, although I see that it came to it. Although that said, as this is a moral issue here, the only thing we can argue is beliefs. There is no other way at looking at this. Even as an atheist I can only believe that in some cases abortion is the answer.

 

[DevilDoll]

I believe that if the child is dangerous to the mother(as decided by a doctor) then the mother has the right to terminate the infant. I'll even go with the idea of rape and incestuous infants should be given the option of termination, due to the emotional damage it could due to both the mother and the child.

But for the 16 year old girl who couldn't take time to use her birth control or make sure that the guy was wearing a condom, she has to live with that decision (and so should the father, in whatever capacity he can).

The ugly truth about abortion is that Babies don't actually ruin lives(most of the time) and the truth is that most unplanned pregnancies come from people who refused or forgot to take precautions to prevent the pregnancy. Why should the Child have to die because some couple are idiots? How on earth is that fair to the child?

You'll call me narrow minded but what say you, why can't you put yourself in the child's shoes. Put yourself in my shoes.




Also let's not forget that just because the mother gives birth to the child, doesn't mean she as to keep the child. She could easily(or not so easily, depending on the person) put the child up for adoption so that a loving and capable family could raise the child.

I can put myself in your shoes. I can see it through your eyes. I even understand where your ideals and opinions come from. That doesn't mean I have to agree, and it doesn't change my mind. Which is the same with you putting yourself in my shoes. However, neither of us can put ourselves in the shoes of a fetus during the early stages of pregnancy when most abortions are performed. That cluster of cells does not have a consciousness. It is not a living, breathing, functioning human. Until the fetus has actual brain activity you can't see anything from it's point of view because with out something to hold it's consciousness it has no point of view.

As for the 16 year old girl, are you really saying that she should be made to go through the ridicule and the humiliation because she made a mistake that the rest of us are just as capable of making? It is very likely she'll be shunned by her friends, teated as a leper, move to a more suitable school (or even drop out), her parents may even disown her. Things like this happen during teenage pregnancies and they are not easy to deal with. An emotionally stable adult would have issues handling them. It can leave people scarred for life. I am sorry, but I would not put anyone through that at any age. Whether they forgo to use protection or the condom broke, it doesn't matter. Unexpected pregnancies can have lasting emotional effects.

And yes, adoption is an option for some people and a good one. However it isn't for everyone. That teenage3r may bring the fetus to term, give birth and hand it off to a loving family, but guess what? She's still the whore who got knocked up in high school. She's still suffered the emotional damage that could have been avoided early on in the pregnancy.

I am not saying that pregnancy causes emotional issues with every woman, but there are cases where it does. And who are we to judge when it does or doesn't?

 

[Billy]

Just to play devils advocate, 16 year old girls gave birth to babies all the time up until the 20th century. In fact it was rather weird to be 16 and not married and pregnant. If society collapses tomorrow, it would more then likely revert to that.

 

[DevilDoll]

Just to play devils advocate, 16 year old girls gave birth to babies all the time up until the 20th century. In fact it was rather weird to be 16 and not married and pregnant. If society collapses tomorrow, it would more then likely revert to that.

I am sure that it would, but that is not the case in today's society. Not at all.

 

[Barnabas]

I can put myself in your shoes. I can see it through your eyes. I even understand where your ideals and opinions come from. That doesn't mean I have to agree, and it doesn't change my mind. Which is the same with you putting yourself in my shoes. However, neither of us can put ourselves in the shoes of a fetus during the early stages of pregnancy when most abortions are performed. That cluster of cells does not have a consciousness. It is not a living, breathing, functioning human. Until the fetus has actual brain activity you can't see anything from it's point of view because with out something to hold it's consciousness it has no point of view.

As for the 16 year old girl, are you really saying that she should be made to go through the ridicule and the humiliation because she made a mistake that the rest of us are just as capable of making? It is very likely she'll be shunned by her friends, teated as a leper, move to a more suitable school (or even drop out), her parents may even disown her. Things like this happen during teenage pregnancies and they are not easy to deal with. An emotionally stable adult would have issues handling them. It can leave people scarred for life. I am sorry, but I would not put anyone through that at any age. Whether they forgo to use protection or the condom broke, it doesn't matter. Unexpected pregnancies can have lasting emotional effects.

And yes, adoption is an option for some people and a good one. However it isn't for everyone. That teenage3r may bring the fetus to term, give birth and hand it off to a loving family, but guess what? She's still the whore who got knocked up in high school. She's still suffered the emotional damage that could have been avoided early on in the pregnancy.

I am not saying that pregnancy causes emotional issues with every woman, but there are cases where it does. And who are we to judge when it does or doesn't?

A fetus? why do those things matter, does having a brain make me a person, what about a heart, hmm.., the infant has a heart not but a couple of weeks after conception, a brain and organs quickly following, to simply called it not human because it has not fully developed is the same as saying a baby isn't person because it's teeth haven't grown in yet. It is simply because you can not see it, therefore it is not a child.

Why should the child die over self induced ridicule, even more so shouldn't we look for a better solution to make people more receptive and forgiving of those who have become pregnant. Abortion is a simple, selfish and finale solution to a temporary problem.


And who said anything about judgement, just because Abortion would be illegal(or highly regulated) doesn't mean we are judging people. Were simply making moral decisions, decisions that are made every day at some level, if we didn't have debates and make laws about this kind of thing our government would be narrow and weak, not reflecting the people it protects and governs, simply being a anarchy.

 

[DevilDoll]

A fetus? why do those things matter, does having a brain make me a person, what about a heart, hmm.., the infant has a heart not but a couple of weeks after conception, a brain and organs quickly following, to simply called it not human because it has not fully developed is the same as saying a baby isn't person because it's teeth haven't grown in yet. It is simply because you can not see it, therefore it is not a child.

Why should the child die over self induced ridicule, even more so shouldn't we look for a better solution to make people more receptive and forgiving of those who have become pregnant. Abortion is a simple, selfish and finale solution to a temporary problem.


And who said anything about judgement, just because Abortion would be illegal(or highly regulated) doesn't mean we are judging people. Were simply making moral decisions, decisions that are made every day at some level, if we didn't have debates and make laws about this kind of thing our government would be narrow and weak, not reflecting the people it protects and governs, simply being a anarchy.

But what gives you, or anyone else for that matter, the right to decide what is morally right or wrong for me?

 

[Barnabas]

But what gives you, or anyone else for that matter, the right to decide what is morally right or wrong for me?

My answers won't satisfy you, what gives anyone the right to say that I cannot shoot the next person I see in the head with a high powered rifle?

 

[KazeCraven]

Are you for or against? At what point would you say life "officially" begins?

I'm for women having the right to decide for themselves, but I am against the practice. I agree with whoever said that abortion says quite a bit about the value a person places on life.

I think human life, as we know it, begins at the first memory (more or less; not that I'm saying memories make for humanity). Until around that point, the human mind is not developed enough to be anything special.

Also, about the question of whether humans are special: yes, because I am one, and I value my own kind more than others. Are we 'objectively' special? No.

 

[Matariki]

I'm sorry if I come off as aggressive, I happen to be in a rather pissy mood at the moment and my arguments usually lean towards the aggressive edge anyway. I assure you it is nothing personal against you.

As for slating your beliefs, it's not really been my intention, although I see that it came to it. Although that said, as this is a moral issue here, the only thing we can argue is beliefs. There is no other way at looking at this. Even as an atheist I can only believe that in some cases abortion is the answer.

Thats ok, I was a little taken aback, talking about personal beliefs has always been a touchy subject as it opens an individual up for unwanted judgment. Its only natural to be defensive when it comes to subjects that are personal. Sometimes I cross that line, and I apologize for doing so.

Although I may not agree with women choosing abortion, its not the women that I judge, but the action itself.
I am in no place to judge another human being's heart. I feel for those that choose abortion as a result of an unwanted pregnancy through an action such as rape, and I wish there was more support out there for women and children that are/were victims of these sort of attacks. However the death of a unborn child shouldn't have to be on the top of that list as a solution.

I hope that everyone here understands that this is where I stand on this subject and that we can clear the air of any misunderstandings.

 

[just me]

sonyab, only my first paragraph was meant for you personally. Sorry for any confusion.

bananaphone, that response was expected from someone. As is in politics currently, there is a clear division regarding how people think and feel. It is obvious we have different values regarding the last fifty years or so of our history, and that is to be expected from people in general. I see a moral decay and maybe you see things getting better. That is fine. Not here to argue.

 

[DimensionX]

I would say that I'm pro-choice and admittedly quite confident of my decision.

I don't mean that I think abortion should be used as a form of every day birth control cause.....well quite frankly that's pretty messed up.

After reading a few replies it seems that some people are of the opinion that pregnacy seems to be some sort of divine punishment lol, they didn't bother to use a condom therefore they must be stuck with the kid they don't want.....kinda makes you wonder what the psychological affects would be of a young girl essentially having in her opinion a immovable tumour growing inside of her.

Personally I'm of the belief that if a person wants to have an abortion they should be given the option as long as it meets a certain criteria for example:

If the person in question is:

1) mentally/physically incapable of raising a child (there are certain support factors that could come into play here for example, a mother with downs really wants a kid and her parents and friends would help support her and the child through it)
2) The pregancy came about from some sort of trauma for example through rape, etc
3) The parent is unable to financially support the "child to be".

There are probably some other factors that I can't think of at the moment, I'm a little distracted since at the moment I can only access the internet from public places, but those are some of the main valid reasons that I can think of.

One thing that I do think is completely harsh is, you get people that hang around at abortion clinics chucking things at already distraught people, yelling at them, like choosing to go through an abortion makes them the scum of the earth, how f$%$ed up is that, a really good friend of mine had an abortion and for some reason you get moronic individuals who think that choosing to go through with an abortion was an easy decision to them, like it was simply like "ok, what shall I do today, go shopping ooooor have an abortion......well.....I haven't had an abortion in such a long time....", no matter how well you rationalise it, not only are you haunted with the thoughts of 'what could have been' you also have to deal with the guilt and other emotional difficulties that come hand in hand with taking said choice and then on top of that people dare to make their lives more difficult and what SERIOUSLY bothers me, is that if you actually pay attention to some of them, they aren't doing it because they are standing up for their religion or moralistic beliefs, but deep down, they're doing it because it makes them feel good, taking this course of action, watching someone sink lower and lower and the feeling of self righteousness, the feeling that they are better than this person because of this, the elation from pushing someones face into the dirt more and more is nothing less than horrific and to me those people are more like the scum of the earth than anyone else.....but then again, thats just one persons opinion *shrugs*

Anyways, that was a bit of a rant lol, bottom line is, as long as it is justified, I don't really have a problem with it and especially if it's in the early/very early stages, I mean don't get me wrong, I don't try to do it but I have on occassion killed ants/worms/other insects in my time, in those instances I was killing life that was probably at a more complex level.

I'm curious as to what peoples views are as to if they believe that aborting a child with downs is ok or not because on subjects such as that the lines seem to be a bit blurrier....hmm...well maybe not blurrier but there seems to be more allowences, something similar to what barnabas said about aborting rape babies would be justifiable. My stance on that one is that if the child couldn't live a healthy life, that is to say, if the child would be in constant pain or could never hope to at least a semi normal life....and ok before the word normal gets jumped on, what I mean like that is the child wouldn't be able to keep up with primary school level of education and would need constant care.

....maybe that sounds heartless, I don't know *shrugs* but that is my stance on the matter either way.

 

[IndigoSensor]

My answers won't satisfy you, what gives anyone the right to say that I cannot shoot the next person I see in the head with a high powered rifle?

Because that directly effects another person.

(yes I know you can turn this on it's head because a baby is another person, but I already explained my view of this on one of the previous pages).

 

[BostonAndy]

I think It is an individual choice. I find the dicussion a bit distasteful because even the discussion implies we as a group have the right to control the bodies of the individuals within regardless of their wishes beliefs or consent.

There is a line here. We are all god's children. If he DOES exist then he is all knowing and that means he created women knowing which ones would or would't have abortions. If god was anti abortion, as some religious would argue, then he would make sure it would happen that way.

If freedom of choice for all people is good enough for the almighty, I am CERTAINLY not going to think I know better and try to take that ability from them.

 

[894tt3h9]

The topic of abortion bores me, really. There are so many religious and political arguments and so many personal opinions floating around. I think if we all had to get together and agree on whether or not abortion should be legal or whether or not it is right or wrong, we'd never come to a collective decision, and even if we went with the majority rule, that doesn't mean everyone will be happy about it.

The problem is this: Whether it is right or wrong isn't up to us. If abortion becomes illegal, and I know in some places it is, then women are just going to travel to other places to get them or they're going to end up getting them illegally somehow. It doesn't matter what any of us think on a larger scale because it's not going to stop, ever.

I don't have much of an opinion on abortion to tell you the truth. I feel like people should be responsible for the choices that they make. How they choose to take responsibility is entirely up to them. For some, that will mean abortion. For others, that will mean carrying the child and giving it up for adoption. For others, they'll have the baby and many will end up being exceptional parents.

If I ended up pregnant right now at this point in my life I can't say that I would get an abortion. I also can't say that I wouldn't get one. However, I think there are a lot of potential health risks and I know I wouldn't want to live the rest of my life wondering what that fetus would have ended up being. Who knows, maybe I would have ended up with a baby that had a horrible disability and a low quality of life. Maybe I'd end up with a golden child who was beautiful and intelligent and strong willed and successful.

Then again, I'm 25 now and I think my emotional maturity is such that I would find a way to make it work. But I wouldn't know what I would do until I was actually in such a position that I had to make a choice.

But regardless, I think our planet is disgustingly over populated as it is, and if people want to not have babies, I don't see the problem. If they're going to abort a baby that's capable of surviving outside the womb, I have a hard time accepting it, but what is it to me? It's not like I want to adopt it. If I'm not willing to take on an unborn child then what right do I have to tell a woman that she MUST have that baby, especially if she doesn't want it?

 

[TinyBubbles]

I am pro choice for the record and I still believe its murder. If you're going to murder children in the womb at least have the balls to know what it is and still stick by your beliefs, don't try to shush it away with semantics. Humans have been practicing infanticide since our species began. Now because we can kill it before it has a chance to be born its somehow differnt then leaving it on a hillside? please.

[MENTION=1451]Billy[/MENTION] so what you're saying is, murder is acceptable in the right circumstances?

 

[NeverAmI]

I think, from a legal perspective, the mother could justify abortion or a more humane termination of embryonic/fetal growth by stating she is no longer willing to provide the resources required that her body creates to support a separate entity. Those resources are legally owned by her and part of her own body prior to it being sent to the child for fuel.

Not that starving is much more human than bludgeoning.

 

[NiennaLadyOfTears]

For me, my personal convictions about abortion are different than almost everyone I know. I am one of those people who don't let my personal convictions influence what I feel would be best politically. So personally, I am pro-life, but honestly it would be a great disservice to women if abortion was not legal. So while I may be personally more conservative, politically I am actually rather liberal, not just on this topic but others as well.