An INTJ's observations of INFJs

[jennerb]

I don't think there's any point in holding a poll like this when it's entirely based on self-report and people on this forum who identify with the INFJ type usually view their type as something positive, with the subconsciously driven goal of preserving a positive image of themselves and by extension their own type.

I don't think it's pointless, unless you don't count "being entertained" as a worthwhile point! Personally, I rather enjoyed reading the INTJ's thoughts, and I wouldn't have had the opportunity to do so if it wasn't posted here. There is definitely a tendency for INFJ folks to think they are special unicorns, but everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. I'll be the first to admit to anyone that logic is not a strength of mine. As far as data collection/self-reporting goes, I don't think anyone is expecting the results of this poll to be published as scientific proof that INFJs understand logical fallacies. Obviously we're all extremely biased. But I think it was interesting/entertaining to see people's responses regardless.

 

[RRiveter]

I don't think there's any point in holding a poll like this when it's entirely based on self-report and people on this forum who identify with the INFJ type usually view their type as something positive, with the subconsciously driven goal of preserving a positive image of themselves and by extension their own type.

You might as well hold a poll entitled, "Do you think you are a racist?"

The fact that you are even posting a poll like this displays that you have a poor understanding of data collection, psychology, and people's cognitive biases. Or worse, that you don't even understand or value the purpose of trying to collect useful information rather than just soothing your asshurt and masturbating your emotions in a collective setting.

And that only makes the views of the INTJ in question seem more valid.

I don't think it's pointless, unless you don't count "being entertained" as a worthwhile point! Personally, I rather enjoyed reading the INTJ's thoughts, and I wouldn't have had the opportunity to do so if it wasn't posted here. There is definitely a tendency for INFJ folks to think they are special unicorns, but everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. I'll be the first to admit to anyone that logic is not a strength of mine. As far as data collection/self-reporting goes, I don't think anyone is expecting the results of this poll to be published as scientific proof that INFJs understand logical fallacies. Obviously we're all extremely biased. But I think it was interesting/entertaining to see people's responses regardless.

Damn, niffer. Tell me what you really think.

Yeah, I realized it would be extremely biased. I tried to make up for that a bit, by making all the choices sound neutral, as if no one choice is better than the others.
I do understand statistics, bias and data collection. I don't know lots about psychology, but I know some. I would never claim that this poll is accurate or scientific.

Its kind of like MBTI. It hasn't been scientifically vetted, but it is still personally useful.

There is a difference between data I use for decision-making or data I think decision-makers should use, and the results of simple, biased poll.

Sucks that it reflected poorly on me. I'm not sure why I posted the poll. Maybe I was hoping that the "unicorns" were aware of logical fallacies and this would be some indication of that, biased or not. or I could have found out that most INFJs don't know about logical fallacies and don't have an interest in knowing them ..or hoping that it would drum up conversation about logical fallacies and be informative.


I don't know how to expire the poll. Is there an option for that?

 

[muir]

I have heard that is a problem sometimes with the INTJ archetype, however it seems most pronounced in the women. I think it is a defense mechanism. Perhaps type impersonation or growth changes could account for such a situation. It seems they have documented similar lines of thought among the type.



I don't know why you lump ENTJ in there without explanation. They seem to often have very broad knowledge of most situations. I think they often get their feelings hurt trying to help people.

It's not that i'm lumping ENTJ's in, i'm just telling you my experiences from years of speaking to people here about all the big issues: politics, religion, sex etc

That's the fascinating thing about an MBTI forum.....you can see peoples personality type

It's not just the fact that INTJ's and ENTJ's are the types i always clash with it is also the stuff i hear them say in threads and their views on things

Also there is that chart kicking about the forum that shows the pay scale of various personality types

When you often hear ENTJ's say they are corporate and when they debate against you when you criticise the role corporations have played in subverting our society and they say things that show a total lack of empathy for their fellow man and when it becomes clear that they are the highest earners in this corporate world....well....a picture begins to emerge doesn't it?

I didn't start out with a vendetta against those types, i'm just telling you what my experiences have been with them...and not just my experiences....i've seen others clash with them and i've also heard other INFJ's discuss their dealings with those types in very negative terms

I'm not saying all INTJ's or ENTJ's are that way, i'm just saying that there is a pattern there

 

[Dohavior]

i'm just saying that there is a pattern there

High earnings don't mean a damn after all expenses are considered. Also consider the safety and privacy of one's own life as an expense. Besides I think ENTJ might simply be a little too optimistic at times about those figures. The reality is that finance is about how much you can clear as valid assets. All you are really criticising there is someone whom has the integrity to submit an honest claim.

The incentives of being an NT are quite broad and never known to other people so we have to put up with suspicions and greed all around us. Either it be an INTP giving out free information, an ENTJ setting themself up as the fall man for an organization, or an INTJ using broken tools to fix a broken system.

Fellow man ain't nothing but an intangible straw man. Empathy in a bad situation is sort of like waking up one morning and finding a severed human finger in a sealed cereal box with blood smeared down it. Where does the corruption end and were you seriously about to just put that into your mouth?

 

[muir]

High earnings don't mean a damn after all expenses are considered. Also consider the safety and privacy of one's own life as an expense. Besides I think ENTJ might simply be a little too optimistic at times about those figures. The reality is that finance is about how much you can clear as valid assets. All you are really criticising there is someone whom has the integrity to submit an honest claim.

The incentives of being an NT are quite broad and never known to other people so we have to put up with suspicions and greed all around us. Either it be an INTP giving out free information, an ENTJ setting themself up as the fall man for an organization, or an INTJ using broken tools to fix a broken system.

Fellow man ain't nothing but an intangible straw man. Empathy in a bad situation is sort of like waking up one morning and finding a severed human finger in a sealed cereal box with blood smeared down it. Where does the corruption end and were you seriously about to just put that into your mouth?

That was just a pile of verbal horse manure...a poor attempt to side-step the truth about who the most aggressive and domineering personality types are

Are you seriously suggesting that all the non NT personality types show statistically lower earnings because they lie to conceal their true earnings? Delusional

 

[Dohavior]

That was just a pile of verbal horse manure...a poor attempt to side-step the truth about who the most aggressive and domineering personality types are

Are you seriously suggesting that all the non NT personality types show statistically lower earnings because they lie to conceal their true earnings? Delusional

Explanations are often quite sloppy, I prefer to lead by example and can't really think of any at the time guess I will have to get creative.

I ask you this when was the last time you went up to a stranger on the street and asked him how much money he had in his wallet? Good people simply don't do that. Just look at divorce rates over financial problems, people aren't that open with one another. Quite frankly when I imagine some foreign entity with the audacity to question the fulfillment of my needs this is the scenario that plays out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffMnKoHPUKw

And if you don't like the comparison of money to divine power then go ask some starving native in a 3rd world country what its like to wave a piece of plastic around and conjure up food, because its magical to somebody I'll guarantee you that.

 

[barbad0s]

Damn, niffer. Tell me what you really think.

People always tell me that. Many don't realize that what I don't say says a lot as well.


Sometimes all you need to do is listen to yourself.

 

[Dohavior]

People always tell me that. Many don't realize that what I don't say says a lot as well.
Sometimes all you need to do is listen to yourself.

Well it seems Rambo went PTSD and pulled the WMDs on Dumbo. Now that there is no elephant in the room the only question is what was the question?

*listens to himself* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNVguvNE7qc

 

[barbad0s]

Well it seems Rambo went PTSD and pulled the WMDs on Dumbo. Now that there is no elephant in the room the only question is what was the question?

*listens to himself* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNVguvNE7qc

I disapprove

 

[slant]

what i think you guys need to understand is that the intj forums and other places where 'intjs' group are awful, and im pretty sure a lot of them are entps in disguise because they sure act like it.

i don't consider myself 'emotionless', i don't pride myself for being 'logical', i don't even think about those things until i get up against an infj or enfp in an argument. basically what it is- as an intj i am not aware of what i am feeling at any given time. i have feelings, i just don't know how to access them, if that makes sense. like i could be feeling crappy and i wouldn't know why, but if i talked with an f type like maybe an infp they could figure it out instantly and then i would be like 'oh yeah that makes sense!'. i will just do things, not know why, and later realize it was because of some emotional reaction i had.

with the 'logical' part, it's not that i am TRYING to be logical. i don't give a shit about logical fallacies i think that's stupid to be hung up on man-made 'rules' or whatever. but i notice if i get into an argument with a feeler, the argument goes nowhere because emotional appeals don't work on me. like for example an infp i know was very upset about twins who do porn together, and i asked if they were adults and consenting and she said yes, and i was like 'well they're adults technically they can do what they want', and then the infp went into a long spiel about how they are being exploited and socially it has an impact on the world and i was just wide eyed thinking to myself 'not really, not everyone has the same morals as you do'. but that's the main difference i think is that F types are very very centered on their morals and can't look past them. like do i agree that twins should be having sex? eh, i don't care, but i wouldn't do it myself or like ENCOURAGE it. does that make sense? idk.

 

[Artisan]

I really find this one hell of an interesting topic.
Most things make me smile so hard it hurts x)

The INTJ's post are what they are a generalization of all the views hes had of the INFJ's he's met.
All in all I find it a highly amusing to read for a variety of reasons.
Some of the INFJ reactions here managed to get me wide-eyed though with some things they've said.

All in all. hot damn what a topic. I hope I get to read some more of these INTJ and INFJ comparisons and reactions.
Both sides make both valid observations and then blurt out a thing or two that completely vindicates some of the more negative and bias points of the other.
Unfortunately though I cannot enter/join in on the conversation and share my views on this because I do not know many people IRL their MBTI's so I cannot compare it to them.

 

[Dohavior]

with the 'logical' part, it's not that i am TRYING to be logical. i don't give a shit about logical fallacies i think that's stupid to be hung up on man-made 'rules' or whatever. but i notice if i get into an argument with a feeler, the argument goes nowhere because emotional appeals don't work on me. like for example an infp i know was very upset about twins who do porn together, and i asked if they were adults and consenting and she said yes, and i was like 'well they're adults technically they can do what they want', and then the infp went into a long spiel about how they are being exploited and socially it has an impact on the world and i was just wide eyed thinking to myself 'not really, not everyone has the same morals as you do'. but that's the main difference i think is that F types are very very centered on their morals and can't look past them. like do i agree that twins should be having sex? eh, i don't care, but i wouldn't do it myself or like ENCOURAGE it. does that make sense? idk.

I often find that democratic methods are far too linear in choosing not to embrace both pros and cons by allowing a vote of disagreement. In said situations I often find INTJ as double agents playing both sides of the table. Why struggle when you can play the incompetent role of a fool on the wrong side. Deep down I think they subconsciously enjoy dancing around with the elephant in the room. Considering these things they seem fickle in an emotionally fleeting manner.

The argument with an INFP that you described I think it is not so much the emotional nature, but that inferior Se trait creeping in. INTJ are very influential with their vast eclectic pursuits yet they may fear loss of influence, disapproval and being ignored which manifests in their dreams as feelings of being trapped. Can you imagine how it is to exert your time and effort into a niche cultural obscurity that won't stand the test of time, that was the situation that the INFP was trying to convey to you. Deep down I think everyone agrees that the true root of evil is that such actions are not sustainable. Not that I agree with anyone in the disagreement, there is a conflict of interest as I have been offered sex with twins many times. Lol but you can see where the INFP is coming from at least!

 

[slant]

I often find that democratic methods are far too linear in choosing not to embrace both pros and cons by allowing a vote of disagreement. In said situations I often find INTJ as double agents playing both sides of the table. Why struggle when you can play the incompetent role of a fool on the wrong side. Deep down I think they subconsciously enjoy dancing around with the elephant in the room. Considering these things they seem fickle in an emotionally fleeting manner.

The argument with an INFP that you described I think it is not so much the emotional nature, but that inferior Se trait creeping in. INTJ are very influential with their vast eclectic pursuits yet they may fear loss of influence, disapproval and being ignored which manifests in their dreams as feelings of being trapped. Can you imagine how it is to exert your time and effort into a niche cultural obscurity that won't stand the test of time, that was the situation that the INFP was trying to convey to you. Deep down I think everyone agrees that the true root of evil is that such actions are not sustainable. Not that I agree with anyone in the disagreement, there is a conflict of interest as I have been offered sex with twins many times. Lol but you can see where the INFP is coming from at least!

to clarify, the infp was talking about twins that have sex with each other- incest. not threeways. sex with each other.

 

[Dohavior]

to clarify, the infp was talking about twins that have sex with each other- incest. not threeways. sex with each other.

To clarify, the intp was talking about a threeway. consentual voyeurism. watches them sex with each other. lol

 

[infinium]

I often find that democratic methods are far too linear in choosing not to embrace both pros and cons by allowing a vote of disagreement. In said situations I often find INTJ as double agents playing both sides of the table. Why struggle when you can play the incompetent role of a fool on the wrong side. Deep down I think they subconsciously enjoy dancing around with the elephant in the room. Considering these things they seem fickle in an emotionally fleeting manner.

The argument with an INFP that you described I think it is not so much the emotional nature, but that inferior Se trait creeping in. INTJ are very influential with their vast eclectic pursuits yet they may fear loss of influence, disapproval and being ignored which manifests in their dreams as feelings of being trapped. Can you imagine how it is to exert your time and effort into a niche cultural obscurity that won't stand the test of time, that was the situation that the INFP was trying to convey to you. Deep down I think everyone agrees that the true root of evil is that such actions are not sustainable. Not that I agree with anyone in the disagreement, there is a conflict of interest as I have been offered sex with twins many times. Lol but you can see where the INFP is coming from at least!

So in this said situation, where you "not that I agree with anyone in the disagreement", and not as double agents playing both sides of the table, where is your stand on this matter?

 

[muir]

Explanations are often quite sloppy, I prefer to lead by example and can't really think of any at the time guess I will have to get creative.

I ask you this when was the last time you went up to a stranger on the street and asked him how much money he had in his wallet? Good people simply don't do that. Just look at divorce rates over financial problems, people aren't that open with one another. Quite frankly when I imagine some foreign entity with the audacity to question the fulfillment of my needs this is the scenario that plays out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffMnKoHPUKw

And if you don't like the comparison of money to divine power then go ask some starving native in a 3rd world country what its like to wave a piece of plastic around and conjure up food, because its magical to somebody I'll guarantee you that.

You can't dodge the question of certain types playing a greater part in the corporate system by saying:

''poorer people in the west can't complain because at least they aren't living off garbage like some people in the majority world'' because its that very corporate system that is impoverishing the majority world through its policy of NEOLIBERALISM

Here is a John Pilger (INFJ) documentary called 'war by other means' about the economic war waged against the majority world by the corporate west:

[video=youtube;9Y2URKBENUg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y2URKBENUg[/video]

We all know that some personality types tend to have sharper elbows than others and are more likely to climb the corporate ladder. I'm not sure why you would deny this

 

[Eventhorizon]

You can't dodge the question of certain types playing a greater part in the corporate system by saying:

''poorer people in the west can't complain because at least they aren't living off garbage like some people in the majority world'' because its that very corporate system that is impoverishing the majority world through its policy of NEOLIBERALISM

Here is a John Pilger (INFJ) documentary called 'war by other means' about the economic war waged against the majority world by the corporate west:

[video=youtube;9Y2URKBENUg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y2URKBENUg[/video]

We all know that some personality types tend to have sharper elbows than others and are more likely to climb the corporate ladder. I'm not sure why you would deny this

I dont like your graphs. Why are intjs alwayw placed at the bottom? Are you trying to send subliminal messages concerning world domination? Oppress intjs and stand at the top of the world is what you are saying isnt it?

 

[muir]

I dont like your graphs. Why are intjs alwayw placed at the bottom? Are you trying to send subliminal messages concerning world domination? Oppress intjs and stand at the top of the world is what you are saying isnt it?

No that's not what i'm saying

I'm saying that there are trends in our society that can be read along MBTI lines

It's my belief that certain personality types have a tendency towards certain behaviours

It's my belief that ENTJ's and INTJ's are often more pushy then other types and less likely to listen to the views of others types

It's also my belief that ENTJ's (and possibly INTJ's) are often drawn towards corporations. These views are based on people i've met online and offline and on what i've heard people say here on this forum (they are trends i've noticed)

I see the social struggle as largely defined by ability to empathise, with those less willing/able to empathise generally being the people who push the corporate agenda (at the expense of the rest of society)

I'm not saying society should oppress certain types, i'm saying that society should not let certain types oppress society

 

[Dohavior]

I see the social struggle as largely defined by ability to empathise, with those less willing/able to empathise generally being the people who push the corporate agenda (at the expense of the rest of society)

I'm not saying society should oppress certain types, i'm saying that society should not let certain types oppress society

Have you ever read any of Mark Twain's literature? I am reminded of a quote I saw recently that stirs up a deep moral dilemma, "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." I don't agree with the advice, but the second part is quite a kin to the social engineering practices I have taken to dismantling. The usual think of the children, plan for the worse, etc. It is always about getting you to assume a prostrately defenseless stance and thereby loosening your reach. That is all empathy is about the mind's reach of all things outside of yourself.

You might find this reading quite enjoyable if you can stomach it:
Terror-based Interrogation
By Oceana, Kristen E. Boon, Aziz Z. Huq, Douglas C. Lovelace

http://books.google.com/books?id=gt...age&q=interrogation law of attraction&f=false

In here it references the Alternative Question method and something called the Kubark manual. Yes that looks familiar and now I wonder what psychological paradigm would allow such to exist in a natural state among the most toxic of social environments.

 

[muir]

Have you ever read any of Mark Twain's literature? I am reminded of a quote I saw recently that stirs up a deep moral dilemma, "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." I don't agree with the advice, but the second part is quite a kin to the social engineering practices I have taken to dismantling. The usual think of the children, plan for the worse, etc. It is always about getting you to assume a prostrately defenseless stance and thereby loosening your reach. That is all empathy is about the mind's reach of all things outside of yourself.

You might find this reading quite enjoyable if you can stomach it:
Terror-based Interrogation
By Oceana, Kristen E. Boon, Aziz Z. Huq, Douglas C. Lovelace

http://books.google.com/books?id=gt...age&q=interrogation law of attraction&f=false

In here it references the Alternative Question method and something called the Kubark manual. Yes that looks familiar and now I wonder what psychological paradigm would allow such to exist in a natural state among the most toxic of social environments.

Evidence pointing to the veracity of Twains observation can be seen all over this forum

Very few people are looking at the bigger picture and treating the issues as the focus

Most people are indulging in petty little vendettas showing a very small minded mentality; commonly when i see this exhibited by people they also show an imbalanced dependency on the left hemisphere of their brain

because they can use their left brain to do left brain tasks which are put on a pedestal by the left brain system they develop a false impression that they are intelligent when in fact they are blind to most of what is going on in reality

I speak with these people all the time; they struggle to learn because they struggle to listen

they struggle to listen because they think they should talk when they should listen. they do this because they think they know more than they do.

So they catch themselves in an arrogant loop of left brained stupidity

You can predict future events multiple times and be proven right again and again and again and yet still they will not listen because they are too pigheadedly arrogant to listen to anyone else

And yes as Twain says they will always try to drag you down to the level of ad hominum which then pulls the focus away from the issue (probably because they are losing the debate and their pride is more important to them then seeking the truth)