Analytic thinking can decrease religious belief

[Kmal]

[MENTION=1451]Billy[/MENTION] you knew albert einstein personally to say he wasn't spiritual? Don't point fingers unless you want more pointing back at you for you must not understand what spiritual means if you think he wasn't spiritual. Have you considered spirit as the substance that makes the universe, and how you treat everything is how you treat God and how He will then treat you. Strip the labels as einstein did for they are indeed useless and will be destroyed, but don't lose the message as I'm sure he didn't.

 

[Blind Bandit]

Ohhhh I think you're giving them too much credit. Everyone knows today's "skeptics" are trendy, bigoted, mindless, zombie followers that let others tell them what to think in exchange for a label and the delusion of not being teh dumb.

Ya no, not really. As a skeptic I already run counter to many new age ideas , ie white guilt (I don't think guilt tripping is an effective method of equality), feminism (I stand for human equality and as a humanist I find feminism to be too narrowly focused and again heavy with guilt and blame), and vegetarianism ( I don't think not eating animals is anymore human, or better for the environment. We have too many people for any system to be truly sustainable. I also support fair treatments to animals and pushing for a focus on organic foods when possible.)

Being a skeptic by nature implies that you speak for yourself. Further that you find the truth to best of your ability. While being willing to change that truth if it is proven false.

Being an atheist or agnostic is moving away from blind faith as is being a skeptic. Some people try to force skepticism into the same mold as religion (IE the feminists and "Atheism +" But someone who truly embraces skepticism will speak for themselves. I don't speak for @Billy for example. Nor dose someone like Richard Dawkins speak for me. I agree with a lot of what he says but he dose not speak for me as I can speak for myself.

 

[Billy]

Link some books or articles that corroborate your idea and I will look into it. I'm open to read up on it. It had better be something that he himself wrote though, because I won't trust just any source online.

I believe in awe of the universe, and energy, and I don't believe in God, and I don't call myself an atheist.

He might have been using the word God, because there is not another word that can describe what he is talking about.

Scroll up I put some of his quotes in one of my responses to this exact claim.

 

[CindyLou]

Ya no, not really. As a skeptic I already run counter to many new age ideas , ie white guilt, feminism, and vegetarianism. Being a skeptic by nature implies that you speak for yourself. Further that you find the truth to best of your ability. While being willing to change that truth if it is proven false. Being an atheist or agnostic is moving away from blind faith as is being a specific.

That's why I put it in "quotes"

It wasn't a personal potshot at anyone here, but at a new group of youngsters (haha I'm old) calling themselves atheists. Atheist and skeptic used to mean heady and intellectual. Now its filled with smarmy, angry, and less cerebral crowd of people that are pissed Mom forced them to go to church when they were kids. If I wanted to take shots at people I would, directly. I am not particularly passive aggressive...I believe what you say about yourself as I take people at face value on the net.

 

[Stu]

Billy,you knew albert einstein personally to say he wasn't spiritual? Don't point fingers unless you want more pointing back at you for you must not understand what spiritual means if you think he wasn't spiritual. Have you considered spirit as the substance that makes the universe, and how you treat everything is how you treat God and how He will then treat you. Strip the labels as einstein did for they are indeed useless and will be destroyed, but don't lose the message as I'm sure he didn't.

I lifted this from wikipedia.

Einstein on God

Your question [about God] is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza's Pantheism. I admire even more his contributions to modern thought. Spinoza is the greatest of modern philosophers, because he is the first philosopher who deals with the soul and the body as one, not as two separate things

Viereck, George Sylvester. "Glimpses of the Great". Duckworth, 1930. p. 372-373.

 

[Jack]

Since when do the majority of religious people want to do that? Typically, as soon as the mere idea is mentioned the word "troll" gets thrown around. See posts earlier in the thread for proof of this.

All that said I completely agree. I'd like to see more serious discussion from their side as well. And by serious discussion I mean of course, not defensively snapping at the athiests/agnostics for asking "why?".

Since you're going after me, I'll respond for now. The first page contained assertions that belief makes you less intelligent and vice versa, if there were genuine questions, (much less any questions) that would probably yield different results. Obviously, if someone conveniently posed a question here and now, it would seem like a bait though. This thread seems like it was made to insult people basically. That is all.

 

[Billy]

I lifted this from wikipedia.

Einstein on God



Viereck, George Sylvester. "Glimpses of the Great". Duckworth, 1930. p. 372-373.

A little outdated. This is later on after all the hubbub began with the Religious nuts trying to claim him.

On 22 March 1954 Einstein received a letter from J. Dispentiere, an Italian immigrant who had worked as an experimental machinist in New Jersey. Dispentiere had declared himself an atheist and was disappointed by a news report which had cast Einstein as conventionally religious. Einstein replied on 24 March 1954:
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

 

[Blind Bandit]

That's why I put it in "quotes"

It wasn't a personal potshot at anyone here, but at a new group of youngsters (haha I'm old) calling themselves atheists. Atheist and skeptic used to mean heady and intellectual. Now its filled with smarmy, angry, and less cerebral crowd of people that are pissed Mom forced them to go to church when they were kids. If I wanted to take shots at people I would, directly. I am not particularly passive aggressive...I believe what you say about yourself as I take people at face value on the net.

We are going to have to disagree. Because I think angry atheist have a point. Too many people blindly fallow religious doctrine and it makes me sick. worse is people (parents often) refuse to let their children be their own person. so yes I understand why someone would be an angry atheist. Its a common stage for most of us some simply don't pass that stage.

 

[Billy]

We are going to have to disagree. Because I think angry atheist have a point. Too many people blindly fallow religious doctrine and it makes me sick. worse is people (parents often) refuse to let their children be their own person. so yes I understand why someone would be an angry atheist. Its a common stage for most of us some simply don't pass that stage.

Not to mention, atheists have a legitimate concern and right to be angry, Christians etc do not. It is not Atheists trying to force a religion onto the people via the laws of the land. It is the believers who are using the governments power to enforce their beliefs. This is what Atheists rebel against, rightfully so.

 

[Stu]

feeling insulted and being insulted are two different things.

Atheists and Agnostics, though very different in their world view, share the derision of the Faithful. The Faithful are often faulted by Atheists and Agnostics as being to willing to believe in ideas that have a hard time standing up to scrutiny.

Last night a friend of mine expressed fear of the GOP presidential candidates religious views. I, a professed agnostic, pointed out that while some of the beliefs of that particular religion can be seen as scary or backward, the dogma is not what the religious feeling was about. The GOP candidate appears to be a religious man. I have no problem with that. I think that is what folks miss. Being religious is about the religious experience, it is not about the cosmology or the theology.

 

[Jack]

Not to mention, atheists have a legitimate concern and right to be angry, Christians etc do not. It is not Atheists trying to force a religion onto the people via the laws of the land. It is the believers who are using the governments power to enforce their beliefs. This is what Atheists rebel against, rightfully so.

It seems to me that you've become exactly what you *think you are opposing. ...Only more abusive.

 

[Billy]

Then it seems to me that you've become exactly what you *think you are opposing. ...Only more abusive.

Yeah just without the power to effect your life. Which is the whole point behind new atheism. You want to believe in magical sky wizards, good for you, I think its idiotic, but keep it to yourself and keep it the fuck out of the public square and definitely don't try to force it into the school and courthouses and Hospitals, stop trying to tell women they cant get abortions, stop trying to say we have to force someone live as a vegetable, keep your goddamned barbaric commandments out of the court house, why does god HAVE to be on the money? Why does it HAVE to be 1 nation under god?

And as for abuse, tell that to the BILLIONS who perished because of religious brutality. You can start with the Native Americans who were massacred for their heathenism.

 

[Jack]

Ignore this post, I shouldn't respond to trolls.

 

[Billy]

You think constantly berating people doesn't effect their life? Or that your abusive language is less demeaning than someone trying to shove religion down your throat? Or are you just inventing excuses?

your hurt feelings < my individual rights. I would say sorry for that, but I'm not.

 

[Kgal]

Here's an interesting study that suggests that religious people are using an intuitive cognitive system 'that relies on mental shortcuts to yield fast and efficient responses', as opposed to 'a more “analytic” system that yields more deliberate, reasoned responses'.

http://www.publicaffairs.ubc.ca/201...king-can-decrease-religious-belief-ubc-study/

Not that this is wholly surprising, but it is surprising that, according to the study, the use of reason actually undermines religious belief. They're not certain about whether it does so in the long or in the short term, however. I wonder if the opposite is also true? I would guess that it is.

Researchers used problem-solving tasks and subtle experimental priming — including showing participants Rodin’s sculpture The Thinker or asking participants to complete questionnaires in hard-to-read fonts — to successfully produce “analytic” thinking. The researchers, who assessed participants’ belief levels using a variety of self-reported measures, found that religious belief decreased when participants engaged in analytic tasks, compared to participants who engaged in tasks that did not involve analytic thinking.

I found this to be very interesting. I am assuming they gave them "Do you believe in a God" type questionnaires immediately before and after the analytic thinking tests. I am fascinated to see they changed their minds in such a short time. I too am wondering if the change in belief will be long term.

We must remember that here in the US at least - critical thinking and reasoning skills have been systematically taken out of the curriculum in public schools. The powers that be do NOT want an educated populace.

I wonder - if you were in a discussion with believers - how could you introduce a subtle way for everyone in the discussion to Think.

I remember sitting in the dispatch room where I used to work discussing religious beliefs with a coworker. I came this close |.......| to getting him to see how following the dogma causes so much pain and suffering in the world. It all blew up in my face when I mentioned homosexuality. I literally saw his eyes roll up into the top of his head and that was the end of that conversation. hwell:

 

[CindyLou]

Hahaha I knew about that study too, and there's more related, but posting things like the original post to dishearten and demean others is their tactic. This is the internet. If everyone ignores them, they'll have no one to bully.

Since its been proven by observation, experience and rational thinking that atheism and NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) are related, mirroring can work wonders when otherwise you can't reach them.

 

[CindyLou]

We are going to have to disagree. Because I think angry atheist have a point. Too many people blindly fallow religious doctrine and it makes me sick. worse is people (parents often) refuse to let their children be their own person. so yes I understand why someone would be an angry atheist. Its a common stage for most of us some simply don't pass that stage.

Right, its a common psychological issue and I completely understand. So we can all be angry with each other then.

P.S. What religious doctrine teaches about a magic wizard in the sky? I mean, if we are going to pretend we are using facts...it needs to sorta be close to one. amirite?

Threads like these are silly nonsense. No one in their right mind who has the validation they need in the real world is going to spend their time defending their analytic thinking and intellect to invisible people on the net just because they are religious or have faith. It is not a serious thing to discuss.

 

[Kmal]

[MENTION=1451]Billy[/MENTION] why the thumbs down? I'm just a warner. in regards to your posts crying about how religious people are oppressing you, stop being the victim. its unbecoming of someone of your intelligence and power. anyone who is oppressing you isnt religious but under the guise of religion for evil, which has been happening for many generations, so are you now aware? Let not history repeat itself on you if you should truly use reason. havent some found a way to freedom from this oppression you are experiencing? give it some thought

 

[acd]

I think that in a lot of cases (at least in my experience with people across the faith/skepticism spectrum) people choose to ignore ideas and facts based on emotions. We all succumb to cognitive dissonance in some ways.
I don't think it necessarily makes anyone less intelligent inherently. There are legitimate reasons why people cling to irrational ideas and fear to question them. One such idea is that all people of faith are less intelligent.
The issues that create the cognitive dissonance need to be addressed-- people don't need to be attacked and called stupid or less intelligent. It serves no one.
This is why emotional intelligence is very important. Learn to cope with the world and you are not afraid to consider other ideas--you are not threatened by them.

Though I will admit that religious fanaticism scares me.
I feel threatened by oppressive tenets--mostly in the form of proposed legislation. But no one can oppress you unless you allow it. So don't allow it.
It is ideas we are contending with--not people.

 

[Billy]

@Billy why the thumbs down? I'm just a warner. in regards to your posts crying about how religious people are oppressing you, stop being the victim. its unbecoming of someone of your intelligence and power. anyone who is oppressing you isnt religious but under the guise of religion for evil, which has been happening for many generations, so are you now aware? Let not history repeat itself on you if you should truly use reason. havent some found a way to freedom from this oppression you are experiencing? give it some thought

Banning abortion and removing the teaching of evolution in schools is not based on religious belief?