[INFJ] Atheism

[Ren]

Of course. Mind you it's one thing to attempt to prove or disprove something using logic, it's another to use logic to determine whether a question is well-defined. I'm very suspicious of attempts to reject the notion of God on the basis of incoherence simply because if there is a God then he is at least in part well beyond the comprehension of humans. I suspect that any success in the endevour would just spotlight a limitation in human intellectual equipment rather than express a truth. By this I don't mean that the logical steps would be flawed, but that logic itself would be unequal to the task set and an inappropriate tool with which to explore the issue.

I think we pretty much agree! I find it interesting how I'm basically like "sure, I probably won't be convinced by said formal argument but it would be fun to have a taste of it anyway", whereas you seem to be more... reserved about that Maybe my Ti isn't that bad after all.

Of course, I'm (literally) agnostic when it comes to the topic of God's existence, whereas you are a believer so it's probably easier for me to approach the topic completely neutrally. I might try to have a look at one of those ignostic arguments. They might say something interesting even if they fail.

 

[Ren]

I suspect that any success in the endeavour would just spotlight a limitation in human intellectual equipment rather than express a truth. By this I don't mean that the logical steps would be flawed, but that logic itself would be unequal to the task set and an inappropriate tool with which to explore the issue.

This resonates, by the way. It echoes the way I feel whenever I encounter the so-called ontological arguments for the existence of God. Arguments along the lines of "a perfect being would be less than perfect if it did not exist, therefore it must exist". It just seems very reductive indeed to reduce God to simply 'a perfect being', no matter how logically precise the definition of perfection.

 

[John K]

I think we basically agree! I find it interesting how I'm basically like "sure, I probably won't be convinced by said formal argument but it would be fun to have a taste of it anyway", whereas you seem to be more... reserved about that Maybe my Ti isn't that bad after all.

Of course, I'm (literally) agnostic when it comes to the topic of God's existence, whereas you are a believer so it's probably easier for me to approach the topic completely neutrally. I might try to have a look at one of those ignostic arguments. They might say something interesting even if they fail.

As a mathematician I'm fascinated by that sort of argument - do share anything you find. In maths there are proofs by induction and by falsification that have a similar feel to them, though determining the validity of a proposition on the basis of incoherence is a step beyond these. They are indirect and there's a whiff of exciting showman legedermain about them even though they are logically accurate. I think there are some mathematical philosophers who cast doubt on their validity even so, but they are very pleasing.

I guess when it comes to God, I do have limitations engaging seriously in rational debate - I can do it, but I feel sometimes like I'm talking about the existence of the sun while it's shining in the sky in plain view lol. That doesn't mean I can't see the world from perspectives where it isn't so clear cut, or where there is no God - and I'd much rather someone was an authentic athiest than a conventional believer. Very importantly, I think at best we spiral slowly towards what is true rather than grasping it whole and entire. I don't fully trust what I know and have experienced, because it's partial and prejudiced by my personal perspective. I believe it's really good for us - and Ni folks in particular - to wear the clothes of other world views because that way we can gain insights that otherwise we'd be blind to.

 

[John K]

This resonates, by the way. It echoes the way I feel whenever I encounter the so-called ontological arguments for the existence of God. Arguments along the lines of "a perfect being would be less than perfect if it did not exist, therefore it must exist". It just seems very reductive indeed to reduce God to simply 'a perfect being', no matter how logically precise the definition of perfection.

yes! It seems to me like trying to express a poem using kitchen utensils .......

 

[sprinkles]

This resonates, by the way. It echoes the way I feel whenever I encounter the so-called ontological arguments for the existence of God. Arguments along the lines of "a perfect being would be less than perfect if it did not exist, therefore it must exist". It just seems very reductive indeed to reduce God to simply 'a perfect being', no matter how logically precise the definition of perfection.

Ironically God was made perfect to avoid having to question it to begin with. Interestingly it's very common for other gods to have flaws.

 

[ThomasJ79]

while I love the astrophysics of the universe, and recognize that we are the stuff of stars. . the question remains, what caused it to all come together and where did ll those atoms come from. . what energy caused the "big bang" that set it all in motion. My uncle was a research professor at UC Berkley, obsessed with discovery of the scientific causes of the generation of life in the universe. Now I did try to read his works, which lost me at the second paragraph. . but his conclusion was that with what we currently know to be true, there is no explanation for life if you remove the existence of an external force. . ..just sayin

I am fascinated with abiogenesis.

We ought to be grateful, in my opinion. Our ancestors didn't have access to the knowledge we have at our disposal. We have uncovered so much of what were mysteries to them. They really didn't have the answers to life's greatest questions, but we are so much closer today than they ever were. There just may turn out to be some things we can't or will never know.

 

[just me]

April, It is entirely clear what I believe and have studied for many decades. It is only you that have doubts. The Bible becomes more clear with prayer and acceptance of the Holy Spirit of God within. Without the Holy Spirit of God and prayer, it is more a hard book to understand. Trying to become more Christlike is an act of faith, which is also needed, and lessons in humility. One simply cannot argue atheism with such a mind. If I reach my hand out to help, it is spit on. If I feel like reaching out my hand and do not, it becomes another failure I have to live with. Yet, I learn through mistakes. It is not an easy task to speak the words of God to those who will not hear them, but it is far more difficult not to speak the words.

Yet, here I stand: in much sorrow for the world and what it has become....in what I have become over the years. I would that I could start over again.

 

[AJ_]

while I love the astrophysics of the universe, and recognize that we are the stuff of stars. . the question remains, what caused it to all come together and where did ll those atoms come from. . what energy caused the "big bang" that set it all in motion...

I am fascinated with abiogenesis.

We ought to be grateful, in my opinion. Our ancestors didn't have access to the knowledge we have at our disposal. We have uncovered so much of what were mysteries to them. They really didn't have the answers to life's greatest questions, but we are so much closer today than they ever were. There just may turn out to be some things we can't or will never know.

Kashmir Shaivism is an ancient tradition that provided some (WAAAY ahead of its time?) explanation:

It's interesting to think about. I like what @Deleted member 16771 said, though: "It is awe and magnificence and mystery."

 

[April]

yes! It seems to me like trying to express a poem using kitchen utensils .......

Very accurate, it just does not make sense, and in what world does it make sense? I mean really?

 

[David54]

when I studied the philosophy of religion in college we referred to God as,the being greater than which cannot be conceived. . it seemed to work for everyone

 

[April]

April, It is entirely clear what I believe and have studied for many decades. It is only you that have doubts. The Bible becomes more clear with prayer and acceptance of the Holy Spirit of God within. Without the Holy Spirit of God and prayer, it is more a hard book to understand. Trying to become more Christlike is an act of faith, which is also needed, and lessons in humility. One simply cannot argue atheism with such a mind. If I reach my hand out to help, it is spit on. If I feel like reaching out my hand and do not, it becomes another failure I have to live with. Yet, I learn through mistakes. It is not an easy task to speak the words of God to those who will not hear them, but it is far more difficult not to speak the words.

Yet, here I stand: in much sorrow for the world and what it has become....in what I have become over the years. I would that I could start over again.

Is not only me, lol. But thanks for your reply.

I was taught that as well, when I was faced with something that made no logical sense that it was of God. Or that I would understand when God wanted me to.

It just seems to me the answers that I was so quick to give and to lean on were the very ones that made start to question even as a child. This doesn't make sense? Oh well let's chalk it up to God's mysterious ways... It's a miracle... I don't understand because I am only human... Or because I don't pray hard enough, or I am not following His will.

Christians would say I am like Paul on Damascus Road, before the scales fall from his eyes. That I am incapable of understanding because I have no faith. That Jesus does not live in me.

But what about when I had all that? I prayed to God all day long. Talking to Him as if He was in the flesh beside me. I had peace that surpassed all understanding. I had understanding of most things of God, and could easily defend against an atheist. Which I did, toe to toe. I felt for the ones who couldn't see. I prayed for them. I had faith.

I don't know what happened but I know that I couldn't prove God was there. And if I couldn't prove it, well... the unknowing just continued to eat at me until I began to feel ignorant and gullable whilst stating my beliefs. There were several horrible things that kept happening in my life that didn't help. But I continued to pray. I went to church. I begged God to stop this internal war. That I wanted to believe in Him and I didn't want to doubt.

I didn't want to lose God. But we grew apart like two old friends. I continued to pray long after I knew I didn't fully believe in Him. I begged and pleaded and cried for Him to restore my faith, to do what He had to do in order to bring me closer to Him. I asked him forgiveness. I asked for understanding. But, I never received it and others would say it was not God's timing. But what then if the verses that warn about lukewarm faith? Acts without faith is dead.

I could not fathom why my brain just wouldn't accept the "facts" as I wanted to see them. I chose to believe, but I couldn't. I did seek, yet I did not find. Others told me I must not really desire to know God, that my intentions weren't pure. But how much more pure could I get? I truly desired it.

Anyway. Just the thoughts of my past. And at times the present.

 

[David54]

I chose to believe, but I couldn't. I did seek, yet I did not find. Others told me I must not really desire to know God, that my intentions weren't pure. But how much more pure could I get? I truly desired it.

for me. . and that is all I speak to or about. .I have never been close to God. Frankly, I don't even understand what that means. I was church less for about 20 years, was I faith less too? that I don't know, again, I'm not sure what faith really is either. I go to church, I sing in church, I played guitar and sang lead in worships teams for years. .but close to God. . again, I don't know what that means. Am I a Christian? depends on what you call Christian. . Jesus walked the earth. . he healed, did miraculous things, was killed by the Jewish leaders and Rome. . did he die for me? no. . did he die to demonstrate love? I think so. do I pray, only at church. . I feel the presence of spirit all the time. . is it God? don't know. I know the bible is a book assembled by men, it's a book. .
Am I a terrible Christian. . I don't really care. I don't seek to know God, I wouldn't understand anyway. . I do seek to be a disciple of the love demonstrated by Jesus.
I'm not going to try and convert anyone, or judge their beliefs, I don't know their walk. only you can know your heart and what your spirit calls you towards. . follow those things

 

[April]

for me. . and that is all I speak to or about. .I have never been close to God. Frankly, I don't even understand what that means. I was church less for about 20 years, was I faith less too? that I don't know, again, I'm not sure what faith really is either. I go to church, I sing in church, I played guitar and sang lead in worships teams for years. .but close to God. . again, I don't know what that means. Am I a Christian? depends on what you call Christian. . Jesus walked the earth. . he healed, did miraculous things, was killed by the Jewish leaders and Rome. . did he die for me? no. . did he die to demonstrate love? I think so. do I pray, only at church. . I feel the presence of spirit all the time. . is it God? don't know. I know the bible is a book assembled by men, it's a book. .
Am I a terrible Christian. . I don't really care. I don't seek to know God, I wouldn't understand anyway. . I do seek to be a disciple of the love demonstrated by Jesus.
I'm not going to try and convert anyone, or judge their beliefs, I don't know their walk. only you can know your heart and what your spirit calls you towards. . follow those things

Lovely.

 

[just me]

I would that thou were cold or hot; but because thou art lukewarm, I will spew thee from my mouth.

Why would God rather us be hot or cold rather than lukewarm? Why not just hot? Why not just cold? Can faith be hot or cold? God would have us to prove, in our own minds, what is that acceptable and pure way of God. We can be hot on fire for God, but how can we be cold? How can being cold be better than being lukewarm?

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Read this again: 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Is it a small thing to sit with Him in His throne, as He sits with His Father in His throne? How must we overcome? Overcome what? Reach into Adam and Eve's hiding their nakedness, the virgin birth of Christ( the only man born with no sin). White raiment is for Holiness. How can we be holy unto God?

These questions have cause to study deeper, and look at the entire text as a whole. I feel continual sorrow for those who seek to know the will of God, for it is not a small thing or a simple task. Some may be called unto holiness; some, something else. Some may have easier tasks; some, not. Be careful what you ask for, as everything is not easy to swallow.

To anyone this may offend: please know it may not have been written for you. I have tried to help someone.

 

[larry806q]

Is not only me, lol. But thanks for your reply.

I was taught that as well, when I was faced with something that made no logical sense that it was of God. Or that I would understand when God wanted me to.

It just seems to me the answers that I was so quick to give and to lean on were the very ones that made start to question even as a child. This doesn't make sense? Oh well let's chalk it up to God's mysterious ways... It's a miracle... I don't understand because I am only human... Or because I don't pray hard enough, or I am not following His will.

Christians would say I am like Paul on Damascus Road, before the scales fall from his eyes. That I am incapable of understanding because I have no faith. That Jesus does not live in me.

But what about when I had all that? I prayed to God all day long. Talking to Him as if He was in the flesh beside me. I had peace that surpassed all understanding. I had understanding of most things of God, and could easily defend against an atheist. Which I did, toe to toe. I felt for the ones who couldn't see. I prayed for them. I had faith.

I don't know what happened but I know that I couldn't prove God was there. And if I couldn't prove it, well... the unknowing just continued to eat at me until I began to feel ignorant and gullable whilst stating my beliefs. There were several horrible things that kept happening in my life that didn't help. But I continued to pray. I went to church. I begged God to stop this internal war. That I wanted to believe in Him and I didn't want to doubt.

I didn't want to lose God. But we grew apart like two old friends. I continued to pray long after I knew I didn't fully believe in Him. I begged and pleaded and cried for Him to restore my faith, to do what He had to do in order to bring me closer to Him. I asked him forgiveness. I asked for understanding. But, I never received it and others would say it was not God's timing. But what then if the verses that warn about lukewarm faith? Acts without faith is dead.

I could not fathom why my brain just wouldn't accept the "facts" as I wanted to see them. I chose to believe, but I couldn't. I did seek, yet I did not find. Others told me I must not really desire to know God, that my intentions weren't pure. But how much more pure could I get? I truly desired it.

Anyway. Just the thoughts of my past. And at times the present.

My first post so I hope this goes well. I would suggest both trusting and LISTENING to your "intuition". Is anyone else going to have consequences for what YOU come to believe? I found this list while searching an entirely different topic, let ( fill in your own blank here) lead you on that journey to enlightenment?
I am not aware of bonus money being paid out for those that get their first. You could (or not) ask right before you fall asleep, what am I to believe. You will get an answer, whether you remember it or not. Good luck!

Larry

 

[wolly.green]

How can Atheism affect one's life?

Not at all... Most atheists, meaning 99.9999%, are just normal people.

 

[just me]

• According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists).

Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia


What percentage of the world is Christian?

• 
  
  
  • According to the Religion and Public Life Project at the Pew Research Center, there are 2.18 billion Christians worldwide, which is about 31.6 percent of the world population of 6.9 billion, as of 2010. About 50.1 percent of the total are Catholic, 36.7 percent Protestant and 11.9 percent Orthodox.

What percentage of the world is Christian? | Reference.com

My intuition may be different from others'. Yet, it tells me to be still and know our God. My intuition, when looking at nature and our universe, tells me the earth isn't some super-natural phenomenon that just happened to be. Everything falls into place too well and too perfectly. I compare things....part of the way I use my curiosity.

Where do I find the time to do this, I wonder?

 

[wolly.green]

Everything falls into place too well and too perfectly.

But that's not true. Life in a state of nature is 'solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short'. Nothing has fallen into place "too perfectly". Even though life does exist, its full of pain, suffering and misery. There is nothing "perfect" about it.

 

[charlatan]

@Ren this topic kind of fits into things we sometimes discuss see the comment on person-hood/consciousness.

Leaving organized religion aside (which is where I'm totally pessimistic), the question of whether there is any sense in which there is a God is still one I'm kind of pessimistic about for the following reason.

To the extent 'God' is basically an empty concept and can be taken to mean anything, we of course can't say much --whether there is one or not depends on your concept of it. But the concept tends to involve two ingredients and one optional one.

- person-hood or consciousness of some kind (broadly construed -- in some religions it's more obviously a person; in others, like some form of Hinduism, it's a relatively esoteric consciousness)
- in some way being the metaphysical grounding of all that there is
- all-good

I think the center of these is what I'm least worried about. The first and the last combined with the center, though, seem fairly open to criticism and incredulity, whether or not they turn out to be right. The idea of putting consciousness behind all that there is metaphysically is considered in different ways in some theories of mind like panpsychism, and these often enough get accused of it being not motivated why consciousness should be so fundamentally behind everything metaphysically.
I think that charge could be leveled against God as well.

The all-good part faces the problem of evil, which I haven't seen any good answers to personally, but perhaps there's something I'm missing.




OK, how does this lead to the question of how can atheism affect one's life? I needed to give that form, because without some notion of God, there's little to say. If one rejects the first and third of the above 3, it does have some impacts. The first being rejected has the dramatic impact that we realize 'what makes us people' may not be central to the universe but rather a special aspect of the universe.
That does not have to have a negative impact, though I guess some take it as somewhat bleak.

The third one being denied is the main thing I think scares people a lot. I.e. that whatever explains the universe is not all-good. As long as conscious beings (a-la point 1) are part of the universe, it may not matter if they are the most fundamental. But if goodness is not fundamentally responsible for the universe, it can be fairly scary.

 

[David54]

I guess the simplest way that it can effect your life. . if you are at 30000 feet and the plane is going down, you have nothing to pray to. . you're just fucked