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Just because something may seem justifiable from someones point of view doesn't mean we should let them do it. You can understand their point of view whilst disagreeing with it
Bad People Don't Exist
- Thread starter Poetic Justice
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Just because something may seem justifiable from someones point of view doesn't mean we should let them do it. You can understand their point of view whilst disagreeing with it
Quiet
i know nothing
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This thread is awesome. Completely agree with the OP. No one is static. We change continously. We choose. We deal with the consequences of our choices. All labels can be dangerous and distort the truth. Labels and judgements can be inefficient and stifle our minds. All perceptions are inherently deceptions as well. Beliefs are the eyelids of the mind. We can not help but see things as we are, not as they are. We percieve through the filter of our mind and experience when we look at the world around us. When our beliefs change, so do our perceptions. You are not the person you were 10 years ago, or when you were 7 years old. The word 'evil' serves no productive purpose. It just creates fear. Let it go and start considering the programs and metaprograms that run your own mind. Know them, edit them, change them. Understand that they control you and take that control back. Be who you want to be. Fuck who you were or what others say. Accept that you are more than your past deeds and have infinite potential. The only thing that can limit you is your own mind, your beliefs and perceptions.
Matt3737
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Yes. The point being is that that applies equally to both the initial action and the reaction towards it, i.e. both the crime and the punishment.
CindyLou
Get over it
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The word evil does not have to create fear. It's not really a judgement call either. It is not a word to describe something supernatural. It creates an understanding that the only thing that can cure it is to fight it with the direct opposite of the word! There is no medication, no amounts of therapy, no rehab, nothing that can fix evil but good. Love. Not the lustful kind, or the kind of love that expects something in return. The kind of love that can change the world. The kind that is strong and hard. Precious, like a diamond. Otherwise, there is no hope for fixing what is broken inside of people. While I think using the label should be used with care, and with responsibility; I will not give up using the word. Love can conquer hate and evil. I believe it. I believe that with everything I've got to believe in something.
I just can't help but have this feeling that we are not all on the same page as far as what defines 'bad' or 'evil' which is to be expected because over half of the people here don't even want to admit they exist at all right along with good. Possibly love. So. :giveup:
I just can't help but have this feeling that we are not all on the same page as far as what defines 'bad' or 'evil' which is to be expected because over half of the people here don't even want to admit they exist at all right along with good. Possibly love. So. :giveup:
Quiet
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I think i understand what youre saying and i can appreciate it. Love can and does conquor all. Love is the only thing that can conquor 'evil'
Rferraris
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Not getting this. It's the choice to not control yourself that makes you bad.
Apone
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Making the examples more extreme really doesn't change the argument, even though it probably does make it less comfortable, because of the emotions that such examples bring to the discussion. Obviously it's extremely difficult to forgive these people for what they've done, and to be honest if I were in the same position I'm not sure that I would be able to, but that doesn't mean that it's impossible or that doing so is unthinkable.
It's possible for someone to outgrow their murderous impulses, or get to the point where committing a crime is unthinkable-- child molesters can be castrated, murderers can be rehabilitated, addicts can get over their addictions. If someone changes so much that it's as likely that they'll commit a horrible crime as it is that someone else will commit a similar or worse crime, then punishing them is redundant... because again, the purpose of that punishment is supposed to be to prevent them from committing a similar crime, not to exact revenge. Of course, if the one who committed the crime refuses to or is too weak to change, then they shouldn't be released... but who are you to say that they don't just need more time?
One of the key steps to breaking one's psychological addiction to cigarettes is to identify yourself as a non-smoker as opposed to an ex-smoker... and even though you might not think there's a difference, it's actually a major one, and it can mean the difference between having frequent cravings for the rest of your life and having a complete non-reaction to cigarettes whenever you see them, or yes, even when you 'hit the wall' and feel like you need something to help you get through some horrible life event.
TLDR: People are neutral, identity is a construct that can, if necessary, be disassembled and reassembled completely, given time.
CindyLou
Get over it
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You're talking as if all or even most 'bad' acts are compulsive behavior or an addiction. That's not true.
Hitler and Timothy McVeigh were psychopaths and there are a lot of psychopaths running around not in jail. You can disassemble and reassemble a psychopath? Are you sure about that?
Hitler and Timothy McVeigh were psychopaths and there are a lot of psychopaths running around not in jail. You can disassemble and reassemble a psychopath? Are you sure about that?
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Hitler was narcissistic. They can change. I've seen proof of this although you'll have to take my word for it. I explained earlier
Just because you don't know how to help them doesn't mean they can't be helped
I am kind of claiming an absolute here so remeberwhenitrained was right to come up with an extreme example. I think Billy and a couple of other people answered this nicely for me though
rawr
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i do see what you''re saying, and perhaps those were poor examples. I used them for effect. I recognize people can change, and that's a good thing. The thing that was getting me is that the tone of the thread/OP seemed (to me) to excuse the proponent of evil/bad action as being only temporary.. the person is still responsible, regardless if he or she has changed. And in my mind, if they have changed, that doesn't mean that they weren't bad. You might call them reformed in the present moment, but there's still the past to account for.
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I'm not convinced they were socio or psychopaths. Unless you are saying that all Germans at that time were psychopaths... saying that though just seems silly. They had different ideas on what should and the technology to implement them. Tim McVeigh was an impressionable dolt... he read the turner diary so many times he didnt know what was real anymore. He slept with it under his bed... he didnt need a lobotomy, he needed new friends, because he was a follower through and through who got caught up in a "cause". No different really than the impressionable young suicide bombers of Islam who are promised virgins in the afterlife if they just do this 1 thing... its sad some people are dumb enough to believe such fantasies.
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How can that be a tone of the thread? Almost everyone who has said that they disagree with the subjective reasoning for using subjective terms as absolutes have continually prefaced their posts with "I AM NOT CONDONING BAD BEHAVIOR"
CindyLou
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He was a psychopath in the highest form going through an identity crisis. The Germans; a cat could have manipulated them.
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Was that the official psychological profile of him? And the point stands, if Hitler was a psychopath, all the Germans were.
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Nah, we just tend to perceive things we dont understand as psychopathic.
CindyLou
Get over it
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No, that's not true all the time. A psychopath can be understood. It explains why he didn't listen to or trust his war generals, why no would would wake him so they could move troops which is why they were surprised at Normandy. They were afraid of him. It is the reason he was a failure. A professional historian would say he was nuts.
People? I think we are all on a sliding scale. I mean, I guess I figure I'm only a couple of 'justifiable' bad choices away from turning into a monster. Who knows which decision will be the one that turns my heart into stone and I've lost my mind. I don't think fear is a justifiable reason to hurt anyone, even though I can understand it. I can't pin things down, I can't. My intuitive heart knows I can show someone mercy. It tells me I can be kind even when someone doesn't deserve it when justice is calling for something different. It tells me that there is bad in this world and not to try to rationalize it away and it pleads with me to stop ignoring it so I don't.
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No, that's not true all the time. A psychopath can be understood. It explains why he didn't listen to or trust his war generals, why no would would wake him so they could move troops which is why they were surprised at Normandy. They were afraid of him. It is the reason he was a failure. A professional historian would say he was nuts.
People? I think we are all on a sliding scale. I mean, I guess I figure I'm only a couple of 'justifiable' bad choices away from turning into a monster. Who knows which decision will be the one that turns my heart into stone and I've lost my mind. I don't think fear is a justifiable reason to hurt anyone, even though I can understand it. I can't pin things down, I can't. My intuitive heart knows I can show someone mercy. It tells me I can be kind even when someone doesn't deserve it when justice is calling for something different. It tells me that there is bad in this world and not to try to rationalize it away and it pleads with me to stop ignoring it so I don't.
I dont care what a professional historian would say, I would be more curious what a professional psychologist who actually met with the man would say. History as you know is written by the victor. People were terrified of lots of people in history, like Alexander the Great... didnt make him a psychopath. He was great!
And he failed because the US, Russia and England were invading him... seriously... if he didnt fuck with the Ruskies, All of Europe would be speaking German today. His plans early on, lead him to many victories which is why he was so popular. They were suprised at Normandy because the US and Brits pulled a bait and switch complete with blow up tanks in many areas to cause confusion, then they attacked head on where they werent expected. It seems perfectly normal to me that no one would want to take the blame for that one. You see that with bureaucracy all the time.
Yeah, thats all perception, but we have been through all this, your version of "bad" is not absolute.
myself
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when people lose sight of what is right they can do terrible things
they do whatever they want to do
they don't listen to the voice of reason
they don't respect anything but their own will to power
we are responsible for our own actions
we are correct to be aware of consequence
it is sensible and reasonable to recognize evil in the world
it goes deep
it isn't an easy superficial explanation
it isn't about justifying punishment or judgement either
again, I wonder how can this discussion can progress any further...
we must be absolutely truthful with ourselves
folks are denying the existence of evil
and i can see where they are coming from
i've wandered around with those thoughts myself
who can be convinced either way?
it's a matter of revelation, as far as I can tell
a revelation brings greater awareness of the purpose and significance of the reality in which we exist
revelations generally wont come to us while we believe we know everything already
they do whatever they want to do
they don't listen to the voice of reason
they don't respect anything but their own will to power
we are responsible for our own actions
we are correct to be aware of consequence
it is sensible and reasonable to recognize evil in the world
it goes deep
it isn't an easy superficial explanation
it isn't about justifying punishment or judgement either
again, I wonder how can this discussion can progress any further...
we must be absolutely truthful with ourselves
folks are denying the existence of evil
and i can see where they are coming from
i've wandered around with those thoughts myself
who can be convinced either way?
it's a matter of revelation, as far as I can tell
a revelation brings greater awareness of the purpose and significance of the reality in which we exist
revelations generally wont come to us while we believe we know everything already
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The biggest barrier to finding the truth is to believe we already have it
Beliefs are the walls we build our internal worlds with. We cannot exist in a world without these walls but we are blind to what is behind them
I build my walls a little under 6 feet tall. So I can peek over the top every now and then