Berkley students protest affirmatie action with pay by race bake sale

[Gaze]

Side Note: I would have made out like a mutha though.....
Native Americans 25 cents....
Wonder how many skins made it thru Berkley....hum...

There were not specifications as to whether you could get a double discount either...otherwise....Native and female....

Uh yea...and we all know how treatying with the White Man worked out for us Indians @InvisibleJim Sell a brownie and there goes your reservation or your first born....

So I hear you've got some reservations or first borns for sale. Would you trade them all for a single shiny penny with the kings head on it, a horsie and a boomstick?

That depends: Does the shiny penny have a hole in it so I can string beads around it and decorate myself with it? @InvisibleJim

Truly epic conversation on so many levels

 

[Korg]

I do agree - there's nothing in there I disagree with, at all (which is the problem with AA). But I can't say the opposite is any better; there has to be a middle ground that respects those with talent, minority or no, and yet also offers equal opportunities to different genders and minorities.

But you're never going to get that - that's my point. It's like you're asking the schoolyard bully to only take half of your lunch money after he punches you instead of all of it. See what I mean? You may get a placating illusion of equality and concession, but you will not truly get them. "Look, America! We did something nice for the darkies!!" isn't making inroads towards anything except subtly reinforced racism.

AA is trying to crowbar the square peg of fairness into the round hold of corporate exploitation. I'm saying to stop trying that futile method and, instead, get our your saw and carve that round hole up until it's square.

 

[arbygil]

But you're never going to get that - that's my point. It's like you're asking the schoolyard bully to only take half of your lunch money after he punches you instead of all of it. See what I mean? You may get a placating illusion of equality and concession, but you will not truly get them. "Look, America! We did something nice for the darkies!!" isn't making inroads towards anything except subtly reinforced racism.

AA is trying to crowbar the square peg of fairness into the round hold of corporate exploitation. I'm saying to stop trying that futile method and, instead, get our your saw and carve that round hole up until it's square.

Of course not - but we're not going to lose AA without something better to replace it, either. Give me the tools to carve out that round hole, and I'll show you square. But we don't have the tools yet.

Not only would we have to change education, but we'd also have to change Congress, the Judicial system, and the mindset of the poor. You can begin changing the mindset of the poor by giving them strength and hope, and by providing a means to break the cycle of poverty (how? I think only the community helping the community can do it, if people are willing to give up something for a greater good).

Once you change the mindset of the poor and they begin out-pacing the middle class, then the middle class will begin to take notice. They'll either become afraid (default setting) or they'll encourage the poor to reach their goals by giving up something they hold dear.

If the middle class and the poor come together and vote based on this new community gathering, then the whole judicial, legislative and executive branches of government would fall in line since the majority would want change.

Now, I have no idea how this ball would start, and I don't think anyone else here does either. If we can find a way - barring tragedy - to get this nation working together for a common goal so that all men decide to treat each other with respect enough to change the dynamics of the nation, then there would be no need for AA at all. If you can find me that spark, I'll do my best to make it happen.

 

[this is only temporary]

I wanted to share this article which I think is relevant to the discussion about AA.
See what you think:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/03/the-white-lie-of-the-self-made-person/73207/

It is in India, where, evidently, there is also an underclass and poverty, and the article discusses one person's experiences and thoughts about the role of circumstances, oppression and individual effort, and how they all combine together to make a person succeed. Or not.

Bottom line: Random chance (who you are, including your race, gender, etc.), hard work on your part, and help from others all matter to varying degrees in how sucessful a person is. Maybe there are ideas from this article.

 

[Gaze]

Bottom line: Random chance (who you are, including your race, gender, etc.), hard work on your part, and help from others all matter to varying degrees in how sucessful a person is. Maybe there are ideas from this article.

This is what arguments which are absolutely for or against AA don't really acknowledge. We have this black and white view of these issues which says that "all it takes is hard work" which is ridiculous since so many people work extremely hard everyday under extreme circumstances and still haven't had the chance to make it as others have. We often ignore the impact of privilege -which I don't believe is a negative thing, but gets too easily brushed under the rug as a silent influence, and most of all, help from others. You can be privileged and still work hard for what you have. And what family isn't going to want to provide their kids with the best they have to offer. It's ridiculous to hate people just because they're privileged. In terms of help, I think there many people who would like to believe they made it on their own without help from anyone but if they really look at how they achieved their success, there had to be at least a few people along the way who gave them some consideration, whether or not they are aware of it, which allowed them some chances or opportunities to progress in some way. The idea that everyone has the same chances or opportunities is wholly misguided and allows people to buy into the belief that everyone can achieve the same level of success as long as they work hard and prove themselves. You can work very hard to prove that you're the best and still be dismissed or held back because of what someone feels or thinks about you. So, we need to be fair, honest, and realistic when discussing this issue instead of buying into fairytales of equal chance or opportunity or some imaginary fair playing field which supposedly exists out there.

 

[InvisibleJim]

"all it takes is hard work"

This isn't an argument I suggest. One is never paid for hard work; it's a consequence of the (relatively) low skilled American economy that there is a perception that doing more should earn more.

There are three things which earn money:
Doing something few other people can do or are not willing to do - Scarcity
Risking ones own capital - Taking a risk
Managing other people - Responsibility

Working hard doing something everyone else is doing will only ever make peanuts on peanuts. The people who are more scarce and are taking risks or responsibility will be paid more because of the economic factors involved.

 

[Billy]

But you're never going to get that - that's my point. It's like you're asking the schoolyard bully to only take half of your lunch money after he punches you instead of all of it. See what I mean? You may get a placating illusion of equality and concession, but you will not truly get them. "Look, America! We did something nice for the darkies!!" isn't making inroads towards anything except subtly reinforced racism.

AA is trying to crowbar the square peg of fairness into the round hold of corporate exploitation. I'm saying to stop trying that futile method and, instead, get our your saw and carve that round hole up until it's square.

Thats all true on a moral level, but on a truly pragmatic level, it gives specific opportunities and chances at better growth toa segment of people who were traditionally denied it. Yeah yeah, its a big head pat by the whites on the blacks, but at the end of the day, you still have a black mother or a hispanic father bringing home a white collar paycheck that puts his kids into a school that is being told to take them and creating a higher class within that segment of people. Those people become the seeds for upward mobility, and thats the point ultimately of what the program does. Yeah its unjust, its morally wrong, its a head pat, but on the most basic pragmatic point, its elevating a new class of people.