Can you change your type?

[invisible]

Yeah... the idea is that (for example) as an F type, you can develop an excellent logical facility, but your core decision making preference will remain emotional. That kind of thing.

No one says that you have to accept MBTI. In fact I think there are a lot of people who say that you shouldn't. But, if you do accept it, then this theory suggests that there is a core self that is immutable, you can't change it, you work with what you've got.

 

[cvp12gh5]

I think it might help if you all knew what happened. The short version is that without knowing it, I broke up two couples: a long term relationship and a marriage because the guys decided they wanted to be with me. One of them I was totally surprised and had absolutely no idea he felt that way. The other was pushing me to be with him but I can't. I lost them as friends and their significant others as well.

So, tell me again how this isn't my fault?

I wouldn't use the word fault, but it does seem that you are partially responsible. You need to work on setting clear boundaries and sticking to them. Things like this do not happen for no reason. Work on self-awareness.

 

[aeon]

So, tell me again how this isn't my fault?

A given person’s poor boundaries, and poor awareness of, respect for, and honoring of, other people’s boundaries, is their responsibility, and theirs alone.

That responsibility is never yours, and can never be made yours.

And for sure, if they do not offer that to their spouses, they will not offer it to you, and that is no fault of yours whatsoever.


Namaste,
Ian

 

[sassafras]

I think it might help if you all knew what happened. The short version is that without knowing it, I broke up two couples: a long term relationship and a marriage because the guys decided they wanted to be with me. One of them I was totally surprised and had absolutely no idea he felt that way. The other was pushing me to be with him but I can't. I lost them as friends and their significant others as well.

So, tell me again how this isn't my fault?

Without knowing all the details, it's still hard to say anything beyond the general, but in my experience, these sorts of situations are usually comprised of a perfect storm of mixed signals and miscommunication. Everyone has a role to play. I agree with @Anywhere But Here in that it's possible you are partially responsible in not setting boundaries, but I also agree with the other posters who pointed out that its the men who ultimately decided to leave their relationships. No matter what you did, you can never make up anyone's mind for them. You can't convince anyone to leave unless they already want to do so. To blame yourself and yourself alone negates their autonomy as human beings capable of making up their own minds and that isn't fair to them or to you.

It's also unfair to pin the blame the outcome of this unfortunate situation on your openness and emotional nature. That's too broad of a stroke and it's like blaming the airplane for crashing into a mountain. Yes, the airplane crashed into the mountain and went up in flames, but there could have been a thousand reasons for why it did other than the fact that it was an airplane. Maybe the engine failed? Maybe the pilot fell asleep? Maybe something scrambled the radar? Maybe the pilot didn't have adequate training? Maybe it just ran out of gas? Or maybe there was nothing wrong with the airplane at all. Maybe it was just that sort of luck...

There's no reason to stop production on airplanes just because this one crashed. Find out what happened and make the necessary changes. Sometimes only small changes are required and they will have a bigger, more positive impact than something drastic.

Though if you are still insistent on big changes, it's the small things you gotta start on first anyway.

 

[cvp12gh5]

A given person’s poor boundaries, and poor awareness of, respect for, and honoring of, other people’s boundaries, is their responsibility, and theirs alone.

That responsibility is never yours, and can never be made yours.

And for sure, if they do not offer that to their spouses, they will not offer it to you, and that is no fault of yours whatsoever.


Namaste,
Ian

But you are assuming that she has set clear boundaries. A person can't respect a boundary that hasn't been set. And you are operating under the assumption that people are perfect and will always do the right thing. I would hope that every man (and woman) would take their relationships just as seriously as some of us do, but at the end of the day, that isn't realistic. Humans are flawed creatures. We have weaknesses. And if they are not happy in their current relationship, something (or someone) else could easily catch their eye. But if that person of interest had clear boundaries set, there would be no questioning where they stood with one another. So yes, their boundaries are not her responsiblity but her boundaries are.

Example. I am an attractive female. I get along with guys better than I do women, therefore, I have always had male friends in the past. Some taken, some single. But I am aware that I am an attractive female. Add in mental compatibility and human nature, then I can understand how those men would look at me and dream of something more. But I have always stomped on those dreams from the beginning. We are friends. Nothing more, nothing less. Get it out of your mind. And if they tried anything else after the first warning, I would completely cut off the friendship and if they were in a relationship, tell their s.o. I don't play around because I take responsibility for my boundaries.

@Scientia You did mention that you were surprised by one which means you were not surprised by the other.

Again, boundaries and self awareness. Forget the T/F thing.

 

[Bellosome]

ahh.. i get you.. this happened to me before.. my friend and her boyfriend then, would always seek my advice whenever they had misunderstandings, and being that i'm a natural helper, i was always there to talk and clear their thoughts for them.. later the guy preferred me instead, which made my friend think that i was secretly flirting with him when all i actually did was to be their friend..

at first, i blamed myself for their breakup and thought i shouldn't have cared or shouldn't have mingled whenever they got issues, but later i realized, i didn't do anything but help. it was their fault they dont trust each other and for my friend, didn't trust me.

IT ISN'T YOUR FAULT. how they thought, reacted and behaved, you didn't impose nor implied. (unless you sort of hinted that there's something more)

it's not your fault that you're too awesome that they're after you
(sorry had to say that, everyone's just so serious)

as for your "friends", if they really are one, they should trust you enough that you wouldn't betray them like that.

 

[Matt3737]

But you are assuming that she has set clear boundaries. A person can't respect a boundary that hasn't been set. And you are operating under the assumption that people are perfect and will always do the right thing. I would hope that every man (and woman) would take their relationships just as seriously as some of us do, but at the end of the day, that isn't realistic. Humans are flawed creatures. We have weaknesses. And if they are not happy in their current relationship, something (or someone) else could easily catch their eye. But if that person of interest had clear boundaries set, there would be no questioning where they stood with one another. So yes, their boundaries are not her responsiblity but her boundaries are.

Example. I am an attractive female. I get along with guys better than I do women, therefore, I have always had male friends in the past. Some taken, some single. But I am aware that I am an attractive female. Add in mental compatibility and human nature, then I can understand how those men would look at me and dream of something more. But I have always stomped on those dreams from the beginning. We are friends. Nothing more, nothing less. Get it out of your mind. And if they tried anything else after the first warning, I would completely cut off the friendship and if they were in a relationship, tell their s.o. I don't play around because I take responsibility for my boundaries.

@Scientia You did mention that you were surprised by one which means you were not surprised by the other.

Again, boundaries and self awareness. Forget the T/F thing.

A person can't respect a boundary that hasn't been set? What sort of catty bullshit is this? The boundary that has been violated was between these people and their significant others and had nothing to do with @Scientia. Even if she had acted inappropriately towards them, and say was leading them on, that would still be a separate issue (one you seem to want to insist upon) from their decisions. They could just as easily paid some prostitutes for sex and ruined their relationships because of their decisions which would have no bearing whatsoever on anyone but themselves. Setting clear boundaries does not eliminate the possibility of people deciding to violate them, so regardless of whether she was very clear or not regarding her boundaries that does not, in any way, shape, or form, shift the burden of blame regarding the issue at hand.

Your whole premise is based on the notion that your ego is so full of itself that you have to take responsibility for other people's decisions. What other irrelevant things would you like to bring up because of some queen bee attractiveness contest that you think is threatening your self-esteem?

 

[cvp12gh5]

A person can't respect a boundary that hasn't been set? What sort of catty bullshit is this? The boundary that has been violated was between these people and their significant others and had nothing to do with @Scientia. Even if she had acted inappropriately towards them, and say was leading them on, that would still be a separate issue (one you seem to want to insist upon) from their decisions. They could just as easily paid some prostitutes for sex and ruined their relationships because of their decisions which would have no bearing whatsoever on anyone but themselves. Setting clear boundaries does not eliminate the possibility of people deciding to violate them, so regardless of whether she was very clear or not regarding her boundaries that does not, in any way, shape, or form, shift the burden of blame regarding the issue at hand.

Your whole premise is based on the notion that your ego is so full of itself that you have to take responsibility for other people's decisions. What other irrelevant things would you like to bring up because of some queen bee attractiveness contest that you think is threatening your self-esteem?

Listen white knighter, I did not insist upon anything. I am pointing to other possibilities, ones that other people are too willing to over-look just because they think someone is "nice". Why not ask questions? No one is perfect and that is okay. And it is very clear to me that @Scientia has issues setting boundaries. People do not just up and leave a marriage over an unreciprocated crush. Even the guy in a relationship. And two guys doing this at once? Am I missing something or are you just stupid? Plus, this seems like an ongoing problem. What about the guy that suddenly left the job that they worked at together just to be with her? And she had no clue why he would do that because she didn't like him like that. Uh huh.

These are red flags that she lacks self-awareness and does not have boundaries. And by the way, setting boundaries absolutely does help every situation. And no one was shifting the burden of blame here, but it is very clear to me that the burden is not completely on those two guys.

And no, I did not say to take responsibility for other peoples actions. I said people need to take responsibility for their own actions when presented with other people's poor decisions. And she was aware of at least one of their intentions, so why not be a good friend and say something? Unless, we don't have the full story.

And I do not know what the fuck you are talking about with this queen bee bullshit. I'm trying to figure out exactly what you mean by "threatened"? You are bizarre. What I wrote was not an attack. Excuse me for not sugar-coating my advice, but that is not my style. There are very clear patterns here that you are either too stupid to see, or too willing to over-look. I pay attention. Maybe you should too.

 

[Matt3737]

Listen white knighter, I did not insist upon anything. I am pointing to other possibilities, ones that other people are to willing to over-look just because they think someone is "nice". Why not ask questions? No one is perfect and it is very clear to me that @Scientia has issues setting boundaries. People do not just up and leave a marriage over an unreciprocated crush. Even the guy in a relationship. And two guys doing this at once? Am I missing something or are you just stupid? Plus, this seems like an ongoing problem. What about the guy that suddenly left the job that they worked at together just to be with her? And she had no clue why he would do that because she didn't like him like that. Uh huh.

These are red flags that she lacks self-awareness and does not have boundaries. And by the way, setting boundaries absolutely does help every situation. And no one was shifting the burden of blame here, but it is very clear to me that the burden is not completely on those two guys.

And no, I did not say to take responsibility for other peoples actions. I said people need to take responsibility for their own actions when presented with other people's poor decisions. And she was aware of at least one of their intentions, so why not be a good friend and say something? Unless, we don't have the full story.

And I do not know what the fuck you are talking about with this queen bee bullshit. You are bizarre. What I wrote was not an attack. Excuse me for not sugar-coating my advice, but that is not my style. There are very clear patterns here thar you are either too stupid to see, or too willing to over-look. I pay attention. Maybe you should too.

It's still you accusing @Scientia of inappropriately leading others on. That is what you are doing and what you apparently think. It may be possible and I even noted it when I said "Unless you deliberately led them on..." You are still shifting the blame and what it says about you is that you feel the blame should be shifted for whatever reason. Those people could have chosen to rebuke her and admonish her for her misbehavior, if it were true. That is what makes it separate from the outcome that was being discussed.

I wouldn't use the word fault, but it does seem that you are partially responsible. You need to work on setting clear boundaries and sticking to them. Things like this do not happen for no reason. Work on self-awareness.

If you weren't attacking her, then maybe you could point out that establishing very clear and strong boundaries might diminish such incidents from occurring in the first place, but you decided to shift the blame. That is an attack, plain and simple.

 

[cvp12gh5]

It's still you accusing @Scientia of inappropriately leading others on. That is what you are doing and what you apparently think. It may be possible and I even noted it when I said "Unless you deliberately led them on..." You are still shifting the blame and what it says about you is that you feel the blame should be shifted for whatever reason. Those people could have chosen to rebuke her and admonish her for her misbehavior, if it were true. That is what makes it separate from the outcome that was being discussed.



If you weren't attacking her, then maybe you could point out that establishing very clear and strong boundaries might diminish such incidents from occurring in the first place, but you decided to shift the blame. That is an attack, plain and simple.

No. I am NOT shifting blame. I am pointing out a very real possibility. I happen to think Scientia is a very nice person. But nice doesn't mean your shit doesn't stink once in a while. Patterns and observations should always be pointed out to help a person. They may or may not be aware of what others see. And while it may not always be a pretty observation and it may hurt to read/hear, it should always be written/said. They can respond by either agreeing and growing from it, or they can reject it and explain if they'd like to clear up any misinterpretations. But they should be the one to accept or reject. Not a white knighter.

You call it an attack. I call it an HONEST observation.

 

[Matt3737]

No. I am NOT shifting blame. I am pointing out a very real possibility. I happen to think Scientia is a very nice person. But nice doesn't mean your shit doesn't stink once in a while. Patterns and observations should always be pointed out to help a person. They may or may not be aware of what others see. And while it may not always be a pretty observation and it may hurt to read/hear, it should always be written/said. They can respond by either agreeing and growing from it, or they can reject it and explain if they'd like to clear up any misinterpretations. But they should be the one to accept or reject. Not a white knighter who

You call it an attack. I call it an HONEST observation.

Quibble all you like, but I have it in writing:

but it does seem that you are partially responsible.

 

[cvp12gh5]

Quibble all you like, but I have it in writing:

She IS partially responsible! No one was shifting blame, dumbass. That's not an attack on her. God forbid someone gives their HONEST opinion! Oh, I forgot. You need to lie to people to make them feel good about themselves, that way they will like you more. Must be in the forum rule section.

 

[Matt3737]

She IS partially responsible! No one was shifting blame, dumbass. That's not an attack on her. God forbid someone gives their HONEST opinion! Oh, I forgot. You need to lie to people to make them feel good about themselves, that way they will like you more. Must be in the forum rule section.

OH! I see! She's partially to blame. So that means you are partially shifting the blame. My bad. Thanks for the quibbling. That makes so much more sense now.

 

[Matt3737]

She IS partially responsible! No one was shifting blame, dumbass. That's not an attack on her. God forbid someone gives their HONEST opinion! Oh, I forgot. You need to lie to people to make them feel good about themselves, that way they will like you more. Must be in the forum rule section.

Would you like me to lie to you so that you like me? I mean because you are SO attractive, right?

 

[invisible]

Eeeeeeeeeeek! This trolley is in serious veering mode! We're all here to help out Scientia right?

 

[CindyLou]

I don't understand how she could be responsible at all in any way based off this thread. That is giving her way too much credit for the demise of a marriage that she isn't even a participant. Having been married many years and experienced something somewhat similar I just know that this isn't her fault unless there are many things I don't know and can't assume just due to the lack of info she's given us. At the end of the day, you're a nobody in someone else's marriage. You just don't matter. It doesn't matter how much they blame you.

 

[hush]

Nobody is lying. We are listening and trying to help. We are listening because we do not have all of the information, yet. Making jabs at each other does not help anyone. Connections are being made and conclusions jumped to from them without even giving Scientia a chance to speak. We've been doing far more talking than she has, and I think it would be best to listen first, before assuming anything else.

 

[cvp12gh5]

OH! I see! She's partially to blame. So that means you are partially shifting the blame. My bad. Thanks for the quibbling. That makes so much more sense now.

You know what? Maybe you are right. I partially shifted the blame in her favor. She asked the question, "How is this not my fault?" She put the burden all on herself and I split it down the middle for her.

And I know I mentioned something in the past about you lacking common sense. I'm hear to help you in any way I can. Don't mention it.

 

[cvp12gh5]

Would you like me to lie to you so that you like me? I mean because you are SO attractive, right?

Oh, is that the problem? You poor thing.

 

[James]

Nobody is lying. We are listening and trying to help. We are listening because we do not have all of the information, yet. Making jabs at each other does not help anyone. Connections are being made and conclusions jumped to from them without even giving Scientia a chance to speak. We've been doing far more talking than she has, and I think it would be best to listen first, before assuming anything else.

I think @hush has nailed it again. Kudos.