Chavez dictator vs. liberator

Billy said:
1 pivotal point you are missing here, those things you listed were proven with evidence. NOT conjecture. For every 1 thing proven with evidence as the cases listed the crackpot conspiracy nuts had 1000X more unfounded theories. And before you go there lack of evidence does not equate to proof of it. Coverups you cant prove, do not count as evidence. Sorry.
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The problem is that the cover ups get revealed once the time period of whatever legislation that is hiding it lapses. So for example the government files admiting Chavez was poisoned won't be made public for another 50 years

In the mean time we have all still got to deal with the fact that the corporations have taken over our government and that they run the central banking system and that under their neoliberal policies they are moving all the wealth from the people to a small number of private hands

This is not a conspiracy theory. You can hear many experts in their field explaining this online. Me and some others here are just trying to talk about neoliberalism; perhaps instead of trying to shout us down why not look into what we are saying?
 
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Explaination of neo-liberalism by Noam Chomsky

[video=youtube;4qUPfOr6fcU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qUPfOr6fcU[/video]
 
Michael Hudson 'democracy to neoliberalism'

[video=youtube;H0k4--y_lw4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0k4--y_lw4[/video]
 
Subcommandante Marcos, spokesman on the zapatistas on neoliberalism:

[video=youtube;5OTy3aLBSMw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OTy3aLBSMw[/video]
 
the end of neoliberalism:

[video=youtube;Qj0pVPcDqeA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj0pVPcDqeA[/video]
 
Joseph Stigletz cheif economist of the world bank on the harm caused by the neoliberal conspiracy:

[video=youtube;zUsN8Ss7Jzc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUsN8Ss7Jzc[/video]
 
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The start to Pilger's 'war by other means' which explains how neoliberalism works through the IMF and world bank:

[video=youtube;WYCH1Ylncxc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYCH1Ylncxc[/video]
 
[video=youtube;PkWWMOzNNrQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkWWMOzNNrQ&list=PL98E8D2EEC861AACB[/video]
 
muir said:
The problem is that the cover ups get revealed once the time period of whatever legislation that is hiding it lapses. So for example the government files admiting Chavez was poisoned won't be made public for another 50 years

In the mean time we have all still got to deal with the fact that the corporations have taken over our government and that they run the central banking system and that under their neoliberal policies they are moving all the wealth from the people to a small number of private hands

This is not a conspiracy theory. You can hear many experts in their field explaining this online. Me and some others here are just trying to talk about neoliberalism; perhaps instead of trying to shout us down why not look into what we are saying?
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Again lack of proof is not proof of something.
 
Billy said:
Again lack of proof is not proof of something.
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What lack of proof? Did you not listen to any of the people i have posted clips of?

Do you mean proof about there being a neoliberal conspiracy or proof about chavez being poisoned?

If you mean the first the clips should illustrate it; if you mean the second then that's the reason i said 'i believe' he was poisoned
 
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muir said:
What lack of proof? Did you not listen to any of the people i have posted clips of?

Do you mean proof about there being a neoliberal conspiracy or proof about chavez being poisoned?

If you mean the first the clips should illustrate it; if you mean the second then that's the reason i said 'i believe' he was poisoned
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Just because someone says something is true, doesnt mean it is. Its literally conjecture.
 
Billy said:
Just because someone says something is true, doesnt mean it is. Its literally conjecture.
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I still don't know what you are talking about? Do you mean about a conspiracy between government and the corporations to follow a set of policies called neoliberalism

OR

do you mean about Chavez being poisoned?
 
muir said:
I still don't know what you are talking about? Do you mean about a conspiracy between government and the corporations to follow a set of policies called neoliberalism

OR

do you mean about Chavez being poisoned?
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Both
 
Billy said:
Both
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Well starting with the idea of Chavez being poisoned I said:

''I believe he has been assassinated by the US for making a stand against them''

I didn't say 'i know Chavez was assassinated by the US''

Soulful then asked me why i thought that; i explained that i wouldn't be able to adequately explain why i had that impression in a post on the internet because there was so much stuff that informed my opinion. But i tried to build a picture of two sides in the conflict, one representing the big corporations and one representing the poor; i also showed how the corporations often use poisons against their opponents and why they had so much reason to hate Chavez. I even posted a documentary about how they came up with over 600 ways to kill castro and posted another clip of an ex economic hitman explaining how they used to assassinate opponents of the big corporations.....all this is to illustrate why i have the impression that he was poisoned

Concerning the neoliberal conspiracy between government and big business i think that is a little more cut and dried. That is accepted as fact by all the experts as the clips i posted relating to neoliberalism show.

Neoliberalism was based on a set of rules that were followed by the washington based institutions such as the IMF, the world bank and the US treasury department which were outlined by the economist John Williamson who called the rules the 'Washington Consensus'. He set them out like this:


  1. Fiscal policy discipline, with avoidance of large fiscal deficits relative to GDP;
  2. Redirection of public spending from subsidies ("especially indiscriminate subsidies") toward broad-based provision of key pro-growth, pro-poor services like primary education, primary health care and infrastructure investment;
  3. Tax reform, broadening the tax base and adopting moderate marginal tax rates;
  4. Interest rates that are market determined and positive (but moderate) in real terms;
  5. Competitive exchange rates;
  6. Trade liberalization: liberalization of imports, with particular emphasis on elimination of quantitative restrictions (licensing, etc.); any trade protection to be provided by low and relatively uniform tariffs;
  7. Liberalization of inward foreign direct investment;
  8. Privatization of state enterprises;
  9. Deregulation: abolition of regulations that impede market entry or restrict competition, except for those justified on safety, environmental and consumer protection grounds, and prudential oversight of financial institutions;
  10. Legal security for property rights.

Here's more info on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_consensus

You know that's a good way to wind up intuitives...to say they have no proof lol
 
The thing with conspiracies is that it doesn't matter what anyone knows.

Even if it's true they don't care that some people know it, and knowing it doesn't do anything.

This ends up working because making people confused and divided with controversy is just as good as totally getting away with something. It still effectively halts reprisal for long enough.
 
sprinkles said:
The thing with conspiracies is that it doesn't matter what anyone knows.

Even if it's true they don't care that some people know it, and knowing it doesn't do anything.

This ends up working because making people confused and divided with controversy is just as good as totally getting away with something. It still effectively halts reprisal for long enough.
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I just don't get it, I mean the most natural thing it seems to me is that there is always going to be some ruling class system until humans evolve further. I think its a lot more decentralized though. I think its groups of people hoarding their assets and kin folk into safety. Its always been this way. It doesn't mean its being controlled by some secret cadre... its running wild. I think that's why people gravitate towards conspiracy the way people gravitate towards religion over a fear of dying. The alternative is chaotic and scary. Oblivion and Natural Selection. The most likely answer is that there is no shadow government, there is no conspiracy, its just human greed and consumption exhausting the planets finite resources with limited animal greed for property and security. We only have 1 foot out of the animal kingdom, as a species we have failed up till now. There is still a chance we can grow from here and probably evolution will keep weeding out the unfit, but lets hope we can make the definition of fit swing a little towards the smarter types over the stronger types. As a species we still favor barbarism in the form of sports over funding Hard Sciences. Scientists have to money grub for grants, and the young buck from the inner city is getting a 20 million dollar contract to run down a grass field with a ball while other slow witted muscle heads try to stop him.

I'm reminded of the scene on the Simpsons when Bart and Homer are eating melted chocolate off the floor in their underwear and they keep saying "Lisa come join your family!" haha.

But yeah, this shit is running wild, and it will continue to do so until technology unites or kills us all... and where we spend our money is directly relational to how we raise our kids who continue the cycle. Do we keep raising athletes or do we start breeding towards raising scientists and people who can deliver us from the evils of our animal nature?
 
[MENTION=1451]Billy[/MENTION]

There doesn't have to be a shadow government. The players that do exist are bad enough, and they are known to exist, and that's all it takes. Remember the Iran-Contra scandal?

It doesn't take a cohesive unit. It just takes a few individuals who are powerful enough to turn the right wheels.
 
sprinkles said:
@Billy

There doesn't have to be a shadow government. The players that do exist are bad enough, and they are known to exist, and that's all it takes. Remember the Iran-Contra scandal?

It doesn't take a cohesive unit. It just takes a few individuals who are powerful enough to turn the right wheels.
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Yeah but they arent turning it into some master plan to rule an indentured race of servants. They do it to line their pockets and disappear with the money. Its simple short sighted human hustle. Not a Cadre of shadowy figures controlling human destiny, thats just nuts.
 
Billy said:
Yeah but they arent turning it into some master plan to rule an indentured race of servants. They do it to line their pockets and disappear with the money. Its simple short sighted human hustle. Not a Cadre of shadowy figures controlling human destiny, thats just nuts.
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Remind me - What is religion for again?
 
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