Complex PTSD (C-PTSD)

[MENTION=5375]chulo[/MENTION] I think you misunderstood the clip.

People replied before me -- whoops. No one's tryin to make you feel dumb. I just don't think you realise how you come across.
 
Paladin-X said:
I think [MENTION=5375]chulo[/MENTION] is talking from a high-level, big picture perspective. In its very essence, it is as simple as changing the way you think or act. However, carrying out that big picture idea is vastly complex.

I could be wrong, but I think this is the disconnect that makes it sound like he's being very nonchalant or ignorant about it, but isn't.
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This.
 
sprinkles said:
It's ok. We make mistakes. Maybe we should let this chill out for a while though.
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I don't care that much. This thread got totally derailed though.

And I still stand behind all of my comments. Minus the one about it being classified as an "illness". I never said changing your way of thinking was easy, I think people just assumed I thought it was. And I still suspect there are lots of people who are misdiagnosed with these disorders.
 
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chulo said:
Psychologists learn a variety of methods to get a person out of a certain frame of mind. Speaking about problems and emotions in third person is a common method. But there are others as well.

In cases like psychosis, medication might be needed. But PTSD and BPD are not typically characterized by psychosis. I consider that a whole different topic.
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Those with borderline are seen as on the line between psychos and neurosis. They flip back and forth; black and white. All good or all evil. Loyal best friend or worst enemy worthy of being destroyed.


C-PTSD is so different though it maybe be somewhat similar on the surface but underneath it's not the same... someone with C-PTSD might withdraw or be paranoid of intimacy to protect themselves from further abuse, they might get angered easily, but it's not technically splitting. Underneath what's going on underneath and what is causing the behavior is different.
 
Sorry if I used the wrong words too. I see BPD as something very severe and difficult to treat and deeply woven into someone's personality and more so an illness...a sickness. I see C-PTSD as something equally serious but there is more hope for healing IMO and I see it as an injury due to someone else's sickness.
 
CindyLou said:
Those with borderline are seen as on the line between psychos and neurosis. They flip back and forth; black and white. All good or all evil. Loyal best friend or worst enemy worthy of being destroyed.


C-PTSD is so different though it maybe be somewhat similar on the surface but underneath it's not the same... someone with C-PTSD might withdraw or be paranoid of intimacy to protect themselves from further abuse, they might get angered easily, but it's not technically splitting. Underneath what's going on underneath and what is causing the behavior is different.
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This is what I don't get about it. How can you be on the line of psychosis and neurosis? It seems like you either are or you aren't. And then there are different levels of severity.
 
chulo said:
This is what I don't get about it. How can you be on the line of psychosis and neurosis? It seems like you either are or you aren't. And then there are different levels of severity.
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BORDERLINE.

They slip in and out of one or the other with erratic and irrational behaviour. There are different levels of severity with any illness or disorder.
 
chulo said:
This is what I don't get about it. How can you be on the line of psychosis and neurosis? It seems like you either are or you aren't. And then there are different levels of severity.
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Psychosis is a vague predicate and therefore subject to the Sorites paradox.

I didn't want to chime in because my experiences are pretty different, but I have DDNOS which is like C-PTSD's more controversial cousin in some ways and I can tell you about some borderline psychosis.

It is not entirely binary. It's something that can be edged into. I had a spectrum ranging between sort of freaked out but still grounded to totally gone from reality.
 
chulo said:
This is what I don't get about it. How can you be on the line of psychosis and neurosis? It seems like you either are or you aren't. And then there are different levels of severity.
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I'm not really sure I get it either...but they toe that line and slip back and forth. I've experienced being turned from white to black by a diagnosed borderline..their paranoia..their neurosis...then they slip right into some sort of madness and then come back.
 
CindyLou said:
I'm not really sure I get it either...but they toe that line and slip back and forth. I've experienced being turned from white to black by a diagnosed borderline..their paranoia..their neurosis...then they slip right into some sort of madness and then come back.
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The psychosis side is mild enough really if you compare it to the like of schizophrenia etc. I think most of it has to do with paranoia and paranoid delusions about people? I have also known severe borderlines to go through fazes of hearing voices or briefly losing touch with reality. It's a really horrible one to have to live with.

Like you were saying earlier about peope wiht CPTSD having more of a chance of healing -- the nature of Borderline PD makes it so that often times patients are resistant to treatments or refuse to stick with it long enough to see long lasting results.
 
chulo said:
From what I understand people can suffer from BPD for a long time and still be very successful and appear normal on the surface. A lot of people with BPD appear more "perfect" or "normal" than average and that is where a lot of the trauma comes from. A lot of them come from families that have "perfect family syndrome", meaning they are brought up to be exactly what the family wants them to be. They are often told that any sad or negative feelings they have are invalid. They store in emotions in order to uphold this perfect image. And they truly believe their emotions are invalid. I think there are a lot of negative/false stereotypes about people with BPD. People think BPD sufferers are completely psychotic and incapable of controlling any emotions. When in reality some of them are too good at controlling emotions and that is what causes the trauma. According to Wikipedia, 25% of people who suffer from BPD experienced no form of abuse as a child and there is a genetic predisposition to it.

CPTSD, which I didn't know about until just now, appears to be very similar. But people with C-PTSD appear to have almost always experienced trauma, hence the name. So perhaps a big difference between the two is that one is always caused by trauma and the other is not always related to trauma.

Also we need to keep in mind that there are financial incentives for diagnosing people with this stuff. People in the psych industry need people like this for business. So I suspect many of the people diagnosed with these disorders really just need to figure out life a bit but are being told they have serious disorders. These are not actual illnesses, they are just disorders. They are vague and so diagnosis is somewhat subjective.
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What does more normal than average mean?
 
chulo said:
Because they are cured differently. A disorder can be cured by changing a persons way of thinking. An illness can't be cured by simply changing a persons way of thinking.
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I guess we'll agree to disagree. I believe mental illnesses are about more than how someone thinks. Differences in biochemistry and neurological circuits are real between people who possess sound levels of mental health and people with pronounced mental dysfunction or difficulty. If all it took in your case was changing your way of thinking, kudos to you. Perhaps you weren't struggling with quite the same thing.

Fwiw, there's no need to feel dumb. It happens to all of us. Meh. Circle of life.
 
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Billy said:
I wonder if I had been suffering from C-PTSD from that situation I had described here one time. I was numb for a good month or two, then the flashbacks started up and I was having severe panic attacks randomly. I basically locked myself up in my apartment for the better part of 3 or 4 months. From what I could figure out for myself, all the intense feelings of terror I should have felt in the heat of the moment during the struggle came back, in the heat of the moment I they switched off.
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Billy, I cannot say with full certainty or with any weight, whether what you have is C-PTSD or not, but I can say that what happened to you left its trail on your psyche with great intensity. I'm sorry to hear it and I hope you'll feel better.

chulo said:
From what I understand people can suffer from BPD for a long time and still be very successful and appear normal on the surface. A lot of people with BPD appear more "perfect" or "normal" than average and that is where a lot of the trauma comes from. A lot of them come from families that have "perfect family syndrome", meaning they are brought up to be exactly what the family wants them to be. They are often told that any sad or negative feelings they have are invalid. They store in emotions in order to uphold this perfect image. And they truly believe their emotions are invalid.
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From an outsider (and somewhat unenlightened) perspective, I can see this affecting BPD from a psychological point of view.

I think there are a lot of negative/false stereotypes about people with BPD. People think BPD sufferers are completely psychotic and incapable of controlling any emotions. When in reality some of them are too good at controlling emotions and that is what causes the trauma. According to Wikipedia, 25% of people who suffer from BPD experienced no form of abuse as a child and there is a genetic predisposition to it.
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Also this. And talking about this would make a separate topic in itself, because so far media treatments towards people with mental disorders have really been unhealthy and invalidating. :|

But people with C-PTSD appear to have almost always experienced trauma, hence the name. So perhaps a big difference between the two is that one is always caused by trauma and the other is not always related to trauma.
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Agreed; whence why [MENTION=4871]CindyLou[/MENTION] said one is injury, while the other feels more of a sickness. (Although I see she made another disclaimer in later posts. Will get back through that)

Neverwhere said:
Firstly, medical issues can also be disorders. Both of the disorders mentioned are mental illnesses trying to act like it's not a form of illness feels a lot like downplaying it to me. It's actually kind of insulting especially to people who suffer severely with this stuff.
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This, together with the thing about media portrayals of people with mental disorders appeared to be a common way of thinking that ultimately was based on a degree of unknowing. Basically what [MENTION=407]Soulful[/MENTION] said;
Soulful said:
However, it is significantly easier to de-legitimize the work done by psychiatrists because their field is the only one (in western medicine) which doesn't allow them to use tests as proof for diagnoses. A cardiologist does a quick interview and runs a series of EKG/ECG tests and bloodwork, an oncologist runs their own series, and so on. A psychiatrist must rely on communication alone.
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It appeared that there is a sort of distinctive line between 'physical existence' that separates 'true illness' from 'faux illness'.
Also existed is the seemingly black-and-white thinking of "NOPE YOUR OKAY MOVE ON DON'T WHINE" and "YEP YOUR CRAY GET AWAY FROM ME DANGER DANGER LOCK YOURSELF". Which is...ultimately wrong?
From what I know, ultimately mental disorders do affect the body via hormones and bodily reactions and brain activities?

Paladin-X said:
Though the symptoms may be similar on paper, C-PTSD and BPD or more likely co-morbid (co-existing) than synonymous. Or another way to look at it is that C-PTSD is a symptom or indirect result of BPD. So most people suffering from BPD probably also exhibit C-PTSD, but not all C-PTSD sufferers have BPD.
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That is interesting. I can see the possibility but I haven't read any proofs and such SO...

Paladin-X said:
For me, C-PTSD is from living an autistic life without ever knowing that I was autistic and what my problems were. I ended up creating my own prison. I am both the prisoner and torturer of my C-PTSD Hell.
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That's also a tad similar with PTSD, isn't it? The feeling of cognitive / mental distortion and/or the lack of awareness... Being the prisoner and the torturer, the one who gives the sentence and the one who serves the time.
 
chulo said:
I'm a business major. I see the world for what it really is; a business.
In my opinion these are modern problems that people develop from being poor at communicating.
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I'm thinking this is the core of your whole statement, and if I may ever so cruelly dissect your argument and premises; even when these statements are true, there's still no way to directly infer that the conclusion you're drawing.

The former premise is one of background; true, within certain levels and dimensions the world is just a business, and that includes the psychiatric world.
(I assume there is an implicit statement added and working here, namely;"a business exploits features / any happenings in the world for the sake of profit.")

The second premise is -also- one of background; in this case the background of the disorder.
(I'd have to question the truth of this statement because C-PTSD are diagnosed with people who have experienced trauma / abuse. That is VERY far from being poor at communicating. In fact being poor at communicating can be considered a cause of this abuse.)

While the conclusion of your argument seems to be this: "So I suspect many of the people diagnosed with these disorders really just need to figure out life a bit but are being told they have serious disorders. These are not actual illnesses, they are just disorders. They are vague and so diagnosis is somewhat subjective."

None of this challenge the existence of the disorders themselves; none of this challenge the effectiveness of the treatments; whether the treatments are actually useful to the patients or not. And most importantly, the arguments are not exclusive. Your argument that these disorders are ultimately a mental problem or a problem of communication or a problem of character (perhaps) and can be treated as such can be true and still coexist with the argument that a) mental disorders (or rather, what 'builds' mental disorder) exists. b) there are medical treatment for these disorders that have beneficial effect for the patients, enough to make them return for more.

So...the vast distance between your argument -and- your proposed conclusion.....it can be compared with the common perspective that 'meh, mental disorders ain't real / as dangerous as 'real illness' anyway, people should just get over it'. And that is really invalidating.

And I'd like to offer the moral idea of "...okay, so you argued they are not real. So what? What does it have to do with the thread?
What does it have to do with how other people are treating their disorders?" But....you seemed to get it too :P


Digression about a digression here:
I'm not trying to demean or finding fallacies in your argument, but... I'm just trying to dissect your argument and present it in a mathematical way, adding implicit arguments that seems to work in my understanding of your post. In some ways it probably help you understanding where I'm coming from

Initial Belief 1 : Mental disorders aren't caused by a virus or a bacteria.
Initial Belief 2 : They aren't caused by the immune system acting in ways it shouldn't.
Conclusion 0 : They are disorders that can be cured with communication, people just need to learn to communicate.

Premise 1 : In my opinion these are modern problems that people develop from being poor at communicating. (from Conclusion 0)
Conclusion 1 : I suspect many of the people diagnosed with these disorders really just need to figure out life a bit. >> This is the most nonexclusive part.

Premise 2 : there are financial incentives for diagnosing people with this stuff.
Premise 3 : People in the psych industry need people like this for business.
Conclusion 2 : (implicit) People will lie and create as much disorder as possible to put people in boxes, while also creating businesses, drugs, and services to accommodate that need.

Premise 4 : (implicit) People will lie and create as much disorder as possible to put people in boxes, while also creating businesses, drugs, and services to accommodate that need.
Premise 4b : (implicit) And an existence of a lie and/or manipulation means everything related is invalid >> I think this is the working rule.
Premise 5 : (implicit) People diagnosed with psychological disorders will use drugs / commit at treatments
Conclusion 3 : People are (will?) being told they have serious disorders

Premise 6 : I suspect many of the people diagnosed with these disorders really just need to figure out life a bit. (from Conclusion 1)
Premise 7 : but are being told they have serious disorders. (from Conclusion 3)
Premise 4b : (implicit) And an existence of a lie and/or manipulation means everything related is invalid
Conclusion 4 : These are not actual illnesses, they are just disorders.

Premise 8: These are not actual illnesses, they are just disorders. (derived from conclusion 4)
Conclusion 5 : The diagnosis is somewhat subjective.

Premise 9 : The diagnosis is somewhat subjective. (from Conclusion 5)
Premise 10 : A disorder can be cured by changing a persons way of thinking.
Premise 11 : An illness can't be cured by simply changing a persons way of thinking.
Conclusion 6 : They are disorders that can be cured with communication, people just need to learn to communicate ??? >> Circular argument!?

Am I getting this right?

Soulful said:
It's great that you knew you needed something else. It's also nice to recognize that your experience may not be everyone's experience, not because they're ignorant about their problem, but because their biology might be different from yours and their physiological needs or processes may require a different approach.

And the saddest part about it is how they de-legitimize people who are already struggling with something rather difficult in a world where mental illness is synonymous with stigma. Way to perpetuate.
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Agreed to all of this.
 
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Paladin-X said:
I think @chulo is talking from a high-level, big picture perspective. In its very essence, it is as simple as changing the way you think or act. However, carrying out that big picture idea is vastly complex.

I could be wrong, but I think this is the disconnect that makes it sound like he's being very nonchalant or ignorant about it, but isn't.
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[/quote]

Neverwhere said:
While I agree, that's still oversimplifying.
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sprinkles said:
Not necessarily but the way he phrased it seems to imply that it is a matter of pure volition rather than a process.

What if I told you simply in your thread about comprehension that you must learn to comprehend? Would that have gone over well?
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sprinkles said:
I don't see how that is any different at all from saying that you cure the flu by becoming well. Of course that's what you want to do but it says nothing at all about how.
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Yes, I feel like this is also the case. There's no mention of how.

"How to be not X?" "Just don't do X!" "...ung..."

There's also this meritocracy, The Secret-ish belief that "you can do it if you want to!" without giving any care about their circumstances and the world's circumstances at the whole, and chulo's wordings skirts dangerously close to this belief. (Which I don't think is his intentions....)
After dissecting @chulo's entire argument I found out that I don't exactly disagree with some of his way of thinking, and taken separately I can integrate some parts of his beliefs, but the conclusions he's drawing seems to make the entire thing just.....disagreeable.

But admittedly I'm getting too heated up and/or biased, perhaps. I'm sorry for @chulo.

sprinkles said:
Where do you believe thinking comes from dude? Some magic place?

If your mind is altered past a certain extent then any input which attempts to repair your thinking becomes warped since you need the thing which is in disrepair in order to absorb it in a meaningful way. Communication and perception are effected in similar fashion.

In other words it comes to a point where the tool you would need to make repairs is the one that is broken and it cannot fix itself because it is in disrepair. I think the recursive nature of this should be obvious even to a layman. If you aren't thinking right then how can you even start to?

I mean explain schizophrenia for example.
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yeah...
Ultimately C-PTSD seems to affect thinking and perception more than others.
 
sprinkles said:
It's ok. We make mistakes. Maybe we should let this chill out for a while though.
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chulo said:
I don't care that much. This thread got totally derailed though.

And I still stand behind all of my comments. Minus the one about it being classified as an "illness". I never said changing your way of thinking was easy, I think people just assumed I thought it was. And I still suspect there are lots of people who are misdiagnosed with these disorders.
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Shit, all of what I said has essentially been discussed /blush

But I agree, let's focus on the topic... that is, especially for [MENTION=5375]chulo[/MENTION], if you want to talk about what I said further, I'm open for a personal discussion.
 
 
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