Conflicts between Enneagram and MBTI type?

[KazeCraven]

Yay, lots of replies!

this is an interesting thread. i'm an intp too but i can identify with alot of what you've said, @KazeCraven: well, not the part about being comfortable with my feelings (definitely not), but about being aware of them and focusing on them. they kind of inspire my thoughts and vice versa. would this make me a 4 also?

Ah, well, I'm pretty sure the main thing that identifies 4's is what your motivation is (basic fears and desires). 4's are all about their identity and finding personal significance, and they tend to see themselves as different from everyone else (as opposed to 5's, very common for INTPs, which see themselves as just outside observers). So, you could be, but 4's tend to make a big deal about their own feelings rather than just respect them.

Have you considered the possibility that you're an INFP with a well developed T? They are very commonly 4s.

This might help with the stackings...



Here are the stackings from that link for 4 sp/sx and 4 sx/sp...

I have, but the thing is that logical thinking and analysis comes more or less naturally to me. I actually picked up computer programming quite easily and find it 'fun'. That's not to say that I'd ever want to be a computer programmer though (I consider it more as a backup plan for supporting myself). Not to mention that the last time I insisted I was INFP, people were giving me helpful 'hints' to suggest I'm not. I do feel like I have a pretty strong Fi though (or Fi-analogue), and the INFP description actually fits me very well. One of the first threads I made on this forum (if not the first) was trying to figure out whether MBTI focuses on either preference or ability. If preference, then I'd consider myself an F type. However, I have since decided that it's neither: it's what you use naturally.

Also, I find making decisions purely on logic or purely on feelings as being somewhat silly. Feelings are what I go by mostly, but I use logic quite a bit to make sure that this decision is actually going to give me what I want. Feelings only tell me what I want, not how to get what I want. I've also considered that I am ENTP or INFJ, primarily because I feel like intuition is more clearly 'me' whereas thinking and feeling are in some conflict, but they only seem to move further away from how I actually am.

Thanks for the links. Looks like I'm probably sp/sx, considering I also often type INxJ a lot (and can come off as pretty J-ish). Both descriptions describe me almost equally well (each one having their 'huh?'s too).

I think VH has a point. I have come across as a T as well. What kind of education do you have? If it is very analytical/mathematical it could be that you are developing these treads but that they are not your dominant ones. The fact that you are in touch with your emotions and don't look at them as undesirable and annoying speaks against you being an INTP

the fear on which type 4 is based is the loss of connection. Is seeking connections your main concern in life? Are you jealous of people who seem to have found someone to have a deep connection with, do you hate it when people remain shallow towards you?

I think you mainly have to decide on being 4w5 or 5w4
how much do you relate on 4's becoming 2 in unhealty state and 1 in a healty state? Does that apply on you too?

The only extent to which I find my emotions 'annoying' is the fact that I have difficulty making arguments when I'm worked up and that people seem to frown upon 'feeling boys'. On occasion, I must admit I dismiss them, but it's usually the case that I retreat by myself and brood on them or release them.

Now this is interesting. Type 4 is based on loss of connection? I thought it was about losing one's identity. Can you tell me where you got this from? If so, that's a pretty strong point against me being a 4. I do get pretty upset when people seem to avoid deeper subjects, and I focused quite a bit on connections at a young age, but I've sense convinced myself I don't 'need' anyone (which is probably somewhat unhealthy). The only time I get jealous is when someone I wanted to be with turns out to be taken by someone I feel 'doesn't deserve her'.

Also, I would have to say that 1 & 2 patterns describe me far better than 8 & 7 patterns, but it usually the case that I just indulge myself under stress.

 

[Tulip]

the fear on which type 4 is based is the loss of connection. Is seeking connections your main concern in life? Are you jealous of people who seem to have found someone to have a deep connection with, do you hate it when people remain shallow towards you?

All sexual subtypes regardless of Enneagram type crave for deep emotional connection.
If anything 4s are fear of, it would probably be the loss of identity or personal significance.

 

[Tulip]

Ah, well, I'm pretty sure the main thing that identifies 4's is what your motivation is (basic fears and desires). 4's are all about their identity and finding personal significance, and they tend to see themselves as different from everyone else (as opposed to 5's, very common for INTPs, which see themselves as just outside observers). So, you could be, but 4's tend to make a big deal about their own feelings rather than just respect them.

4s also see themselves as outsiders, but in a different way. They are true to themselves and have this sense of shame and defectiveness which make them feel different and above the commoners in the normal world.

 

[Morgain]

Now this is interesting. Type 4 is based on loss of connection? I thought it was about losing one's identity. Can you tell me where you got this from? If so, that's a pretty strong point against me being a 4. I do get pretty upset when people seem to avoid deeper subjects, and I focused quite a bit on connections at a young age, but I've sense convinced myself I don't 'need' anyone (which is probably somewhat unhealthy). The only time I get jealous is when someone I wanted to be with turns out to be taken by someone I feel 'doesn't deserve her'.
.

well I tried to find it again. it is a very extensive text in Dutch. it is probably a translation of an english book about enneagram but they didn't gave a reference

the text indeed says that the basic fear is being without identity or personal meaning

but it also says the following

the life experiences that turned a child into a type four is that it was forced to focus itself on surviving and because of that lost the contact with its essence (existance). Because they lost the experience of being connected to everything they feel abandened and start searching for the ideal love an ideal circumstances that give them the feeling of being loved, being whole and complete again. They feel like they are defected, not whole and search for those things/feelings that will make them whole again.

I guess this is more of a spiritual explaination of the 9 types, more than the usual explainations. But this explaination is exactly me!!!!!! That is exactly my basic pain and fear. I don't actually fear the lost of identity, I would be happy to loose my identity if I could connection in return...


http://www.aan-de-basis.nl/prgk_oktEnneagramType4.html


edit: I believe it is translated from a book of Helen Palmer but I haven't found the english text yet
http://www.enneagramworldwide.com/explore-the-enneagram/tour-the-nine-types/enneagram-type-4.php

 

[KazeCraven]

Well, I can relate to that a lot (for better or worse, especially the idea that most people are just 'commoners'), but I think for me it would be more accurate to say that I just expect a whole lot more from myself than others, so I have higher standards and drive myself harder.

Tulip, are you a type 4? I'm just curious as to whether you say this from your own experience or from getting to know other 4's.

@Morgain:: I bet you are a sexual type 4, aren't you? At least I know now I'm not sx/--.

 

[Tulip]

What type do I come across to you?

:rain:

 

[KazeCraven]

Honestly, you come across like a 4, but I'm neither very familiar with the enneagram nor with you.

I'd be much more comfortable saying that you are strong yet concerned and melancholy. (Though that might just be the umbrella guy.)

 

[Morgain]

this may be an interesting site. It is about MBTI versus enneagram

http://tap3x.net/EMBTI/journal.html

 

[KazeCraven]

Dominant function for an INTP is introverted thinking while the secondary function being extroverted intuition.

http://www.intp.org/intprofile.html

INTP is a thinker while a 4 is a feeler. They don't seem to fit together.

Gosh, is there an extensive description for INFP somewhere? I've read this probably a dozen times over the past couple of years, and I agree so much with top two functions, but I only half agree with the Si-description (most disagreement comes with the musical focus) and only bits and pieces of the Fe.

I'd argue for being an INXP, with a weakness in using extroverted judgment in general, but I'm told that's not allowed. I consider my Si to be the bane of my existence, with a rather faulty memory and a frequent regret popping up in my mind at random, almost always about something that undermines my ideal self-image.

 

[Trifoilum]

Then again, the site says the 6's try and find potential flaws in arguments which I certainly do, and have done since I was very little. Doing that a lot will build Ti no doubt.

All in all though, I HATE being a 6, I want to be something thats NOT all about being anxious, since it suck all the life out of me a lot and my life. Chaz is a 9, I'd like to be a 9 too...

Anyone got tip on suppressing 6-ness? heh...

Yesh. Devil's advocate ahoy! I find it very interesting actually...
as for tip on suppressing 6-ness...don't suppress it. It'll only add another layer of anxiety; anxiety about being anxious.

You know, the entire setup of enneagram pretty much is about "how you are messed up" if you think about it.

Because we're generally, in one way or another, 'lost' our Holy Ideas and Virtues, yes. >_>; And MBTI is far more positive... but then again, for every bad told there's always a good side told; 6s are loyal, 3s are productive, 5s are full of knowledge, 9s are loving.... and MBTI got flaws that aren't so much told (not unless you joined a forum), instead. I guess it's a matter of perspective.

I think though I'd need either heavy distraction or a lobotomy to ever calm down that much though. Or maybe find that solid foundation that the 6's seem to need but couldn't get.

I'm not a fan of enneagram so much, now.

I'm NATO here; but acceptance is another medicine. I found out that there won't be ENOUGH foundation, even not after I build a mental fortress beating one of Inception. But by accepting what it is (in idea), I think I can focus on changing what I want to change, and be understanding with anything else.

And...yeah, Enneagram sucks. But do you think it fits your own personality?

For type 6, this means letting go of the idea that you must rely on someone or something outside of yourself for security.
For type 9, this means letting go of the idea that your participation in the world is unimportant.

but since I tied for third in type 6 and type 9 I could pm you those full descriptions if you'd like.

I agreed ...and can i have some too? >_<

@all: So apparently thus far it seems that enneagram and MBTI are focusing on different things. Enneagram is due to basic fears and desires, which are likely to develop according to type due to the way each mind works

Agreed, but I would say it would affect the resulting type instead / how one became that type.

I used to think that was the case, but I think it is more a case of MBTI seems to flavor what our fears, desires, and motivations focus on and how they manifest.

I agreed with this too. I think both MBTI and Enneagram gave different flavor to each other resulting on different .....personality.

Gosh, is there an extensive description for INFP somewhere? I've read this probably a dozen times over the past couple of years, and I agree so much with top two functions, but I only half agree with the Si-description (most disagreement comes with the musical focus) and only bits and pieces of the Fe.

I'd argue for being an INXP, with a weakness in using extroverted judgment in general, but I'm told that's not allowed. I consider my Si to be the bane of my existence, with a rather faulty memory and a frequent regret popping up in my mind at random, almost always about something that undermines my ideal self-image.

There's a lot in the internet, from other sites and other boards.. Also, I have to say regret is part of Si, part of 'remembering' things. Also, reading further about some description of type 4 and.... I can see it increasing Fi, in specifics; the need to be authentic (and the resulting uncertainity). Now assuming your Enneagram is 4, perhaps it might tell how as an INTP your Fi is more developed.

 

[KazeCraven]

So apparently several INTPs have reported themselves as 4w5 on other forums, so it's not that uncommon. These INTPs also seem to be the same ones who rebel against the anti-feeling nature of most type descriptions (for the most part, I found one exception). A search for INTP 4w5 pulls up several discussions of this stuff, for anyone interested in seeing it themselves. So while I feel more confident that I'm not just fooling myself, I also feel, well, less unique. I guess it was inevitable. Not to say that I'm 'definitely' INTP or 'definitely' type 4, but that I see little reason to question it further for now.

Also, I've been reading more about the relationship between MBTI and Enneagram, and it seems that while most theories are focused on trying to find the correlation between the two, for the ones that seek to use them simultaneously (i.e. as not describing the exact same thing but in a different way) it's mostly a focus of how (MBTI) vs why (Enneagram). This sounds a whole lot like what VH; was saying with MBTI changing how we go about satisfying our desires whilst avoiding our fears. In other words, there is a mediation between the two such that the individual adapts to both constraints simultaneously (and hence probably no considerable conflict).

Finally, like the MBTI, the Enneagram has lots of interpretations; the one I use is here: http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/intro.asp
Of particular interest is the following idea, which may help (or further confuse) those trying to figure out their basic type in the Enneagram:

Everyone emerges from childhood with one of the nine types dominating their personality, with inborn temperament and other pre-natal factors being the main determinants of our type. This is one area where most all of the major Enneagram authors agree

 

[DoveAlexa]

Sounds to me more like you're a 9, and therefore your healthy side moves toward 3, and your unhealthy side moves toward 6... and therefore you've been 'unhealthy' lately which is what's making you seem like a 6.

Like Indigo, I think I'm a 1w2, and therefore when I get unhealthy (which I have been a lot lately) I become more and more like the bad sides of 4. When I'm happy and healthy, I'm a lot more like a fun lovin' free spirited 7.

If you are a 9, then you'll probably see more of the 'bad sides' of 6 in yourself, and more of the 'good parts' of 3 in yourself, and 9 will seem pretty 'normal' for you, and your 'normal' state is one of putting peace and harmony first... as in you'll be at your happiest when surrounded by peace and harmony, and from there you can move toward the good parts of 3. Without peace and harmony, you'll start to focus on anxiety and the need for security of a 6.

You know what, when you said this, and I read the expanded description Kaze gave me, I felt like suddenly everything was back in place, where it should be. I feel worlds upon worlds better now. I've been increasingly angry and anxious for weeks and it all went "pop", then. I feel a lot better, so thanks a million you two ^.^.
//gives you all chocolate cake with cream cheese whipped frosting on top.

The part that got me the most was this:
"...their hidden side is that they often suppress a huge well of anger that they conceal even from themselves... they also feel that they can never let this anger out without destroying their relationships. Thus, for Nines to develop themselves and their potentials they must come to grips with their suppressed rage and find constructive outlets for this energy."
This is what really struck me. I've been saying that I've been full of rage for months now. I didn't know exactly what was going on, but it was getting too much to control lately. I definitely need to find some way to deal with it though, and I'm starting with one so far: I'm quitting my job in October. I think I'll make a thread though on anger outlets.

Thanks again Kaze and VH ^^.

 

[KazeCraven]

:bounce::bounce::bounce:

I'm very glad to hear this.

And Yay! Chocolate cake!

 

[whytiger]

I'm an ENTP 5w4. Most ENTP's are 7's or 3's, so there is some conflict. An unhealthy 5w4 can resemble a 4 very much so usually because of excessive introspective analysis, which can resemble the 4's search of inner identity. It can become a compulsion with me, at times, to try to define myself, i.e., fit myself to a precise definition based on who I feel I am. This is futile though because these feelings are ever changing and an appropriate best-type-fit can only be achieved by examining long term behavior. In the end, though, I have relied on others to type me because I too easily doubt my own analysis and of course, like many ENTP's, I am drawn to impersonating other types just for the joy of experiencing something novel.

 

[AUM]

I'm a 9/INFJ and this is certainly quite conflicting to say the least.

Being a 9 has led me to see multiple perspectives at once, and because it is an instinctive group, I also thrive in action. I sometimes collect so much anger inside of me without even me knowing.This anger is what motivates me to accomplish tasks, it's a driving force. So I wouldn't say that anger is entirely bad, it only becomes bad when you allow yourself obsess with it. In addition, I'm also more passive and easy-going than what an INFJ is suppose to be. However, when I'm engaged in the world, I sort of suppress my 9ess and use my Fe which thrives in order and harmony in a group. I become more demanding and uncompromising which sometimes conflicts with my 9-ish point of view.

I don't know if I explain this right, since I'm still learning about enneagram but this is what I came up with so far.

 

[KazeCraven]

@whytiger: *does a double take* I could've sworn you were a type 7, though I'm probably confusing you with someone else.

That's interesting though. That sounds kinda like me when I'm focusing on trying to understand a system I find personally significant.

@Last Dawn: I'm surprised at your relationship with your anger, though upon closer inspection it makes sense considering that what the type 9 is against is letting anger emerge rather than simply feeling angry. I actually like the anger emotion quite a lot; it's probably two notches behind joy and on-par with satisfaction/contentment.

 

[AUM]

@Last Dawn: I'm surprised at your relationship with your anger, though upon closer inspection it makes sense considering that what the type 9 is against is letting anger emerge rather than simply feeling angry. I actually like the anger emotion quite a lot; it's probably two notches behind joy and on-par with satisfaction/contentment.

I wouldn't say that I enjoy feeling angry, but I simply acknowledge what I'm feeling inside and somehow work with it in more healthy expressions. For example, when I feel frustrated over something, I go outside and run like crazy for about an hour. It's rare that I do exercise but I do it in instances of strong emotions. When I come back from running, I somehow formulate all kinds of solutions as to what and why I'm angry for and I can dig deeply into the root of the problem.

 

[DoveAlexa]

I'm a 9/INFJ and this is certainly quite conflicting to say the least.

Being a 9 has led me to see multiple perspectives at once, and because it is an instinctive group, I also thrive in action. I sometimes collect so much anger inside of me without even me knowing.This anger is what motivates me to accomplish tasks, it's a driving force. So I wouldn't say that anger is entirely bad, it only becomes bad when you allow yourself obsess with it. In addition, I'm also more passive and easy-going than what an INFJ is suppose to be. However, when I'm engaged in the world, I sort of suppress my 9ess and use my Fe which thrives in order and harmony in a group. I become more demanding and uncompromising which sometimes conflicts with my 9-ish point of view.

I don't know if I explain this right, since I'm still learning about enneagram but this is what I came up with so far.

I identify with what you said <3. Though I'm not as productive with my anger. I don't really know what to do with it, I have no outlet .
heeeeelllpppp meeeeee. First person shooters also just make me more angry so thats a no go.

 

[IndigoSensor]

For a very long time I thought I had Si at or directly below my Ni. I later learned that it is not the case it isn't that strong (I speak from capacity, not prefrence). What really solidified this, was learning I am 1w2. There are tons to SJ's that are 1's, and it seems to be the most common for them (in particular for ISxJ's). There is an overlap between 1's and Si. Both of them have a need for things to be correct and "right" all of the time, and feel very stressed when that isn't true. It can actually lead to direct expressed anger. That's the only thing that doesn't fit me with 1's. I don't get angry. I do though get frustrated A LOT over many things, so I think it's just a word choice there.

A lot of these articles relate functions to enneagram numbers. The corralerry is not perfect, but it's an overlap, and I really think it explains disparity in function tests and general typing. INFJ's are somewhat common as 1's from what I have seen (which is actually kind of surprising to me). I have noticed that many of them often have solid J's and weak F's. In rare cases, weak N's as well. That's not as common because Se is antagonistic to 1's, so it won't deflate N values. 4's would be the most common for INFJ's in my perspective and often causes high I and low J scores. This is actually the most common result for having the confusion between INFJ and INFP (which is by far the most common confusion on these forums). Since 4 is strongly linked to Fi in my opinion, it makes sense that it would cause a misjudgement between INFJ and INFP. I would think the majority of 4's are INFP's over INFJ's (ignoring other types falling into that catagory), in particular if they are a 4-sp.

 

[AUM]

I identify with what you said <3. Though I'm not as productive with my anger. I don't really know what to do with it, I have no outlet .
heeeeelllpppp meeeeee. First person shooters also just make me more angry so thats a no go.

Definitely, anything that involves shooting, yelling or hitting other people won't make anger go away, it will just fuse more anger. It's like trying to extinguish a fire by pouring more fire into it.

What sorts of activities relaxes you, make you more connected with other people?