Conversations with the devoutly religious

Stella said:
Even openly religious people annoy me, frankly...

I consider myself some sort of Christian, and I start talking to someone like that and it's just "Dude, I like God too. But really. Shut up. Please."

God didn't make people to obsess over him, in my opinion. We were given brains and the ability to think. For me, it just doesn't feel right when people freak out over religion. I mean, I am very uncomfortable in churches and around openly religious people, partially because of my half-agonistic upbringing, but churches and openly religious people are very uncomfortable overall.
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why is it uncomfortable?


Blind Bandit said:
Of course they are. But when talking causally with people with topics that don't relate to my Agnosticism. I don't bring up the lack of god unless relevant. I find people who bring up god when not relevant to be lacking in worldly experience or true understanding of their belief system.
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From the OP post his conversations tend to happen out of small talk, it's no irrelevant because no subject has been made the staple of conversation.

A: Nice Day

B: Yeah, God made this one a good one.

A: so how were the Jets last night

B: they were ok


This is completely acceptable conversation


P.S.

I was completely unsure if could multi-quote from different pages. Glad to know that you can.

Edit: also finding a place for a lack of God in a conversation is significantly harder then finding a place for God in conversation.
 
Yes, it annoys me - but I have to be honest and say part of it is because of my own rigid adherence to logic and I want everyone else to think the same way. That is, I know when my own commitment to rationality is getting to the point of creating irrational reactions. So I simply grit my teeth and bear it because they have a right to believe as they wish regardless of my perceptions on it. Plus, I find people who go around shattering faiths just as obnoxious as those who go around trying to evangelize. So I abstain from that.

Nevertheless, it is just exceedingly difficult to see people wallow in literalist absurdities like a global flood and Noah's Ark. Not just for the reasons listed above, but because I know these people have a collective influence on society and wish to legislate the brand of morality born from such biblical fables.
 
Stella said:
It just doesn't feel right. I really can't explain.
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If you take time to figure it out and put it into words you might learn something about yourself...... maybe


EDIT:

P.S.

B.B. stop playing with your unicorns
 
It really doesn't bother me. It's their faith, and they are really not harming anyone by saying it either.
 
Seraphim said:
But some people are obsessed with God outwardly in a way that seems forced and desperate. I can't explain it well, but there's a difference.
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It is exactly as Carl Jung said:

"...one’s cherished convictions and principles, especially the moral ones, begin to harden and to grow increasingly rigid until [...] a period of intolerance and fanaticism is reached. It is as if the existence of these principles were endangered and it were therefore necessary to emphasize them all the more." Thus, the obnoxious overuse of the Christian lexicon in normal, everyday dialog.

For example, I recently met with my sister for lunch (a devout Christian who is borderline fundamentalist) but she got lost on the way to the restaurant. Forty minutes after she arrived, she said "it was only by the grace of God that I found it." At first I thought it was just a hyperbolic expression until I overheard her say the same to two different people on her cellphone. In my mind, she's purposefully interpreting commonplace events through the lens of her faith and then making declarations about all of it in an effort to shore up a waning internal conviction as well as reinforce her self concept as an unashamed believer who will speak about God while in the world. Or, put another way: she's trying too hard to see God and speak about God so she has evidence to replace the doubts inside.

This much is sad but understandable. We've all done it at different times in our lives in different situations. But what annoys me is how blindly stubborn such folks get when you question them and/or call them on it - often turning the tables and making ad hominen arguments. It's not them, you see. It's you - the unbelieving, worldly heathen who doesn't have the character of the Holy Spirit and, thus, can't see the truth.
 
I have nothing to fear from another man's beliefs that I don't have to fear from my own.
 
To those who are devoutly religious, their belief in their deity's omnipotence allows for an excuse to shoehorn that into facets of conversation that someone obsessed with game show trivia couldn't.
Conversations with someone annoyingly obsessive about anything can be grating if you don't share that person's level of interest, but religion provides so many more opportunities to shift the conversation in that direction.
 
I'd like to try and make a distinction, are we talking about the common use of christian reference in everyday language or an overly obtrusive injection of christian thought into conversation.

The difference between a buddy of mine who references music in his daily life

and the guy who always shifts conversation to music theory
 
Barnabas said:
I'd like to try and make a distinction, are we talking about the common use of christian reference in everyday language or an overly obtrusive injection of christian thought into conversation.

The difference between a buddy of mine who references music in his daily life

and the guy who always shifts conversation to music theory
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Read my first example conversation - it's the latter. I've met people who have pictures and statues of saints and angels decorating their office/house but God never came up if it wasn't relevant to the conversation. Sure, occasionally there might be a Heaven or God thrown in here and there, but it was in reference to the conversation.

The people I was initially referring to are the ones that interject it no matter what the topic is or whether or not it had anything to do with the conversation. A question that could be answered with an "I'm fine, thank you." being answered with "God saw fit to bless me with good health today." is a bit much for a casual question that had nothing to do with God in the first place.

But I digress...

What initially brought this on was an on-and-off conversation I'd been having with a person. Eventually, no matter what direction I was trying to go, it would be steered towards religion. Honestly, the initial conversation was about endangered species in the world and they somehow shifted it towards Noah and the Great Flood. So I started to talk religion.

They would talk about things like Noah's Ark and I would ask, "Did the flood include the entire world or just that little area that was known about at the time? Was Noah also able to rescue species found, say, only in South America, or was he limited to the Mediterranean area?"

They would answer by quoting a Bible verse or two but not actually providing any ounce of their own thoughts.

Another time, out of nowhere I received an e-mail addressed to a few others as well (not really spam since we all knew each other).

It would talk about signs indicating the end of the world (or whatever their version was) and go on about the number of recent earthquakes as opposed to the ones a few hundred years ago. So then I responded "Do you think villagers in rural Siberia had any means of recording or reporting an earthquake back in the 1500's? Or what about earthquakes that happened at sea? Who was there to report those without our modern equipment that came around only in the last 100 years or so - exactly when you've claimed there was an increase?"

They would answer by giving me the same numbers as before while quoting another Bible/religious verse.
 
Lerxst said:
Read my first example conversation - it's the latter. I've met people who have pictures and statues of saints and angels decorating their office/house but God never came up if it wasn't relevant to the conversation. Sure, occasionally there might be a Heaven or God thrown in here and there, but it was in reference to the conversation.

The people I was initially referring to are the ones that interject it no matter what the topic is or whether or not it had anything to do with the conversation. A question that could be answered with an "I'm fine, thank you." being answered with "God saw fit to bless me with good health today." is a bit much for a casual question that had nothing to do with God in the first place.

But I digress...
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I completely disagree with the idea that you first example or the example in your post being to much. Both are common and unobtrusive in regular conversation and should have no effect on you.

It's casual conversation for a christian to mention God or religious matter when conversing.

Lerxst said:
What initially brought this on was an on-and-off conversation I'd been having with a person. Eventually, no matter what direction I was trying to go, it would be steered towards religion. Honestly, the initial conversation was about endangered species in the world and they somehow shifted it towards Noah and the Great Flood. So I started to talk religion.

They would talk about things like Noah's Ark and I would ask, "Did the flood include the entire world or just that little area that was known about at the time? Was Noah also able to rescue species found, say, only in South America, or was he limited to the Mediterranean area?"

They would answer by quoting a Bible verse or two but not actually providing any ounce of their own thoughts.

Another time, out of nowhere I received an e-mail addressed to a few others as well (not really spam since we all knew each other).

It would talk about signs indicating the end of the world (or whatever their version was) and go on about the number of recent earthquakes as opposed to the ones a few hundred years ago. So then I responded "Do you think villagers in rural Siberia had any means of recording or reporting an earthquake back in the 1500's? Or what about earthquakes that happened at sea? Who was there to report those without our modern equipment that came around only in the last 100 years or so - exactly when you've claimed there was an increase?"

They would answer by giving me the same numbers as before while quoting another Bible/religious verse.
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My only problem with this is that you invite further conversation, back in high school if conversation steered to a religious nature people either made note that they didn't want to talk about or tried to steer the conversation elsewhere. If they wished to talk about ti they talked about it.
 
I think I understand more the general thrust of this thread. It's that people who have closed minds, and approach things in a dogmatic or programmed way are difficult, to talk to our deal with. From that perspective I don't think that related only to religion, it can cover politics, philosophy and other ideas or beliefs. I do accept that its perhaps more commonly found in religion though.

For me as annoying and frustrating that can be, I find it scarier dealing with people who have no belief system. I don't mean atheists, just those who seem to have no moral code of any kind.

interesting thread.
 
Religion is the systematic rationalization of the ineffable. If God does not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him, or else the "God-shaped hole" in "our hearts" will ache with desire for something greater than a meaningless and finite life.

There are some things which really tick me off though:

1. The tight-lipped grin. You know what I'm talking about - when you dish out reason and they realize they have no idea how to respond. So they grin and shake their head, and repeat some slogan.

2. "I'll pray for you". No thanks. And what if I said in return, "May Zeus/Jupiter/(other pagan god) bless you in return?"

3. Lack of common sense. e.g. Noah's Flood (salinity changes would have killed off majority of sea creatures; not enough food to feed all land animals, not enough exercise space for animals, lifespan of some animals very short, kangaroos from Australia + llamas from S. America = did Noah visit those lands to get those animals too?); dinosaurs (some Christians say they walked the earth with Man - but then why are their bones buried in sediment dating to hundreds of millions of years ago?), etc. etc. etc. These are NOT explained away by the Bible (unlike wandering the Sinai Desert for 40 years, which is explained away by being fed with manna). In fact, the Bible provides evidence which directly disproves its own assertions (i.e. Noah's boat is way too small to host all animals).

4. Lack of philosophical inquiry. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then we have no true free will. We might have subjective free will, but that's the free will of a hamster in a cage. So how can they say God gave us a "choice" of loving Him? And what kind of a "choice" is "love God" or "Go to Hell"?

5. Slave mentality. The ultimate Christian answer as to why God made everything is because it's for His own Glory. Yeah, they'll say stuff like God loves everyone, etc. etc. - but then if God made everything, that'll include sin and resultant death (or at least the capacity to sin). Also, some Christians pray by saying "we are totally powerless without You", which I suppose implies that God directs all action in their lives, which then I suppose includes sinning. And if God has a Master Plan (TM), then our sinning is merely part of God's Master Plan (TM). Which makes... sinning OK? I mean, if we don't sin according to plan, then God won't have his plan realized. So is sin really that bad? I digress.

6. Lack of understanding of history. See Marcionism. Gnostic gospels. Council of Nicea. Emperor Constantine the Great.

Seraphim said:
...At one point she grabbed my hand and said "I feel like I've known you forever" and didn't let go for a long time. I could only imagine how lonely she must be, stuck at home looking after the babies all the time, doing chores.

At one point she mentioned how her mom was going to make her wedding dress, and I wondered if they were marrying her off soon. She was still a child. Another time, she said that sometimes she saw people listening to rock music and thought "how sad their lives must be because they must not know God." She was so brainwashed, sheltered, and obviously so lonely but glossing over it with religious fluff, like she had been taught to do. After she left, I went home and cried...
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Did you end up keeping in contact with her?
 
I myself might rightly be considered devoutly religious, but even I have trouble conversing with some devoutly religious folks. In these cases, I think one is engaging with a church community sub-culture where certain phrasing is commonly used.
 
I have fun with it, personally. Unless they aren't overzealous, that is; then I'll treat them the same as I treat everyone else. I just can't take some things seriously...a lack of creative thought is one of those things (not intended to insinuate that ALL religious individuals have none, of course).

Example:

Person *.* : It's a nice day out today.
Person -.- : God made it so.
Person *.*: Oh, ok. So does that mean he made it so NOW or at the beginning of the day? We could have a hurricane and storms followed mid-lightning-strike by singing birds and sunshine. What if he started and walked out for lunch, wouldn't that mean the day could get better? If so, it seems like he contradicts himself by leaving an imperfect day. What'cha think?
Person -.- : *annoyed glare followed by sermonizing*

Point being: Don't take it seriously. They will go about their lives the same as you do yours. Disengage as soon as possible to retain sanity.
 
Barnabas said:
I think the problem may be on you, from my perspective you seem to shut off when people talk in a way that reflects devout faith. The hardest part of conversing with someone who has devout beliefs is listening and understanding them instead of shutting down.
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My experience is that I am able to outargue most people when they quote the bible such as my dad. But when I really push for those answers right up to the edge, he just doesn't know anymore. He just relies upon what's in the book,; what he's told. When someone pushes him, he folds because either he doesn't have the answer or there is no answer. And then he'll end with telling me that his faith is the logical choice and that's I'll eventually come around. Yeah and then me and my future boyfriend will have butt babies together.

I have no problem with people of faith, so long they admit they are taking a leap of faith.
 
bickelz said:
My experience is that I am able to outargue most people when they quote the bible such as my dad. But when I really push for those answers right up to the edge, he just doesn't know anymore. He just relies upon what's in the book,; what he's told. When someone pushes him, he folds because either he doesn't have the answer or there is no answer. And then he'll end with telling me that his faith is the logical choice and that's I'll eventually come around. Yeah and then me and my future boyfriend will have butt babies together.

I have no problem with people of faith, so long they admit they are taking a leap of faith.
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See your missing the point, it's not about arguing. In fact the arguing is the problem. When you get into a debate with a person your focus isn't on what is he saying how does it affect me and what should I do with this information. You instead make it into a competition and try to win instead of trying to understand.
 
Barnabas said:
See your missing the point, it's not about arguing. In fact the arguing is the problem. When you get into a debate with a person your focus isn't on what is he saying how does it affect me and what should I do with this information. You instead make it into a competition and try to win instead of trying to understand.
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Understand what that beliefs in a false deity need to be pushed in everyone's face!. I don't blame anyone for getting argumentative if god comes up.

Its pretty clear you not getting the issue that is being presented. Most of us don't appreciate god being shoved down our throats for no reason. Small talk about everyday issues is not the place for god.
 
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Blind Bandit said:
Understand what that beliefs in a false deity need to be pushed in everyone's face!. I don't blame anyone for getting argumentative if god comes up.

Its pretty clear you not getting the issue that is being presented. Most of us don't appreciate god being shoved down our throats for no reason. Small talk about every issues is not the place for god.
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let's recap the examples of conversation in this thread:

A: nice whether out today.

B: God sure did make beautiful day.

Then the conversation goes on normally. Is it to much to except that a person deeply held beliefs actually pepper their speech and language.
No, no it is not



then the following

A: nice whether out today.

B: God sure did make beautiful day.

A: Oh, ok. So does that mean he made it so NOW or at the beginning of the day? We could have a hurricane and storms followed mid-lightning-strike by singing birds and sunshine. What if he started and walked out for lunch, wouldn't that mean the day could get better? If so, it seems like he contradicts himself by leaving an imperfect day. What'cha think?

B: defends position

conversation as above, only A decides to initiate an argument about God, which then guess what? it leads to the christian talking about God.



Then we have the last example where the christian initiates conversation about his or her faith, then the person enters into a discussion or argument instead or either trying to push the conversation else where or simply telling the christian that they'd rather not talk about it.

which then you have to ask yourself, how much of it is your fault for not trying to stop a conversation you knew you didn't want to have.

It's not solely on you of course, but it's not entirely on your friend either.



The only other possibility is of a christian who constantly and obstructively forces faith debates into conversation. Which is very much a problem that they need to deal with and be told about.



Honestly ask yourself if you fit into one of those categories, seeing as one is being annoyed by nothing more then the mention of God, the other has you starting the debate and the complaining about it, the third has you of your own free will actively participating in the debate.

Guess what if you do fit into one of these three, you probably shouldn't be complaining.

Unless you fit into the last category with a friend of your who just won't shut up.
 
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