did God create the universum (Stephen Hawking)

[muir]

That sounds like something from the book "The Secret" which I think is a retarded book. What about starving kids in Africa born with AIDS? Can they create their own reality?

Yeah i agree with you that those children are not creating their own realities and that the whole positive thinking thing can lead to a displacement of responsibility.

I think what i was trying to do with my posts in this thread, at the time, was open the field of discussion up a bit to new possibilities. My perceptions have changed a lot over the last 5 years and i'm now pretty open to possibilities. I think there are other.....realms....if you like. I am also fully open to the possibility that we are all one consciousness and therefore everything happening is both internal and external at the same time.

I'm told a realisation of this is the first step for an initiate undergoing the great work

I think that our true nature is being deliberately concealed from us by left brain operators.....lets call the left brain the reptile part of the brain!

So i think that we are being controlled by a bunch of reptiles who want us to continue in a spiral of pain, rooting us in material plane thinking, instead of transcending. The matrix films provided a pretty good analogy of gnostic beliefs where the matrix of reality sought to ground neo ('new man'). Our reality has its agent smiths who have been peddling a neutered literary version of religion which has concealed from people the true spiritual significance of the teachings in order to control them. For example if you apply a Qabalistic interpretation to the bible it becomes a whole new experience and makes a lot more sense.

All the greek heroic stories about hercules and jason and the argonauts are actually describing aspects of the spiritual journey and i think that in our materialistic consumer culture we have become estranged from our spiritual heritage of a right brain, intuitive and poetic way of viewing the world and our place and role in it

I think that the same stories have been told and retold and the characters given different names. For example i think that the celtic sun god lugh/lud is the same as jesus and horus and king arthur, and robin hood and mithras and the green man, whilst the may queen is mary, isis, maid marion, the earth goddess, queen mab etc etc

Reading these stories literaly is missing the truth that they are trying to convey......notice how hollywood has always peddled a very literal version of these stories because it does not want them acting as tools in our spiritual evolution

The reptiles are controlling things and that's why their is so much violence in the world.....because they are unbalanced....they are cold, callous and unfeeling.....they need to balance with their right side (the bird brain)

'Too much strength is but cruelty and oppression, whilst too much mercy but aids and abets evil'-Frater Achad

The reptiles are all warrior and no monk. They have no compassion only antagonism. They push an educational system on us that breeds left brain prisoners instead of balanced people. They know what they are doing because they have the ancient knowledge but instead of using it to help people to their true potential they use it to control them.

Their lies are endless. The same way they told us that the world was flat and that the earth was the centre of the universe they are now keeping new secrets from us which in time will be found out. I believe that more and more truths will be revealed in the coming years of the nature of reality and of our true nature. The reptiles fear the outcome and they are making their preparations. Laws will get stricter, the wealth will be channeled to the reptiles, the police will get more heavily armed, the internet will be increasingly controlled, the media will intensify its efforts to mould our perceptions of reality and the unbalanced left brain system will continue to cause economic upheval, conflict and environmental damage until people wake up to what they are dealing with

There was an article in the papers today about how the latest 'terrorist' bomber who was planning to blow up a plane with a bomb in his underwear is actually a CIA agent (see article below). The reason for this is simple. The reptiles want to scare the public so that they can justify making changes to the law so they created a threat which they called 'terrorism' to act as a bogeyman. In order to perpetuate the fear of the bogeyman the reptiles have to create threats...even false threats....and some times they even have to stage attacks themselves and blame it on the bogeyman ('false flag' attacks):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/09/underwear-bomber-working-for-cia

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

Yeah i agree with you that those children are not creating their own realities and that the whole positive thinking thing can lead to a displacement of responsibility.

I think what i was trying to do with my posts in this thread, at the time, was open the field of discussion up a bit to new possibilities. My perceptions have changed a lot over the last 5 years and i'm now pretty open to possibilities. I think there are other.....realms....if you like. I am also fully open to the possibility that we are all one consciousness and therefore everything happening is both internal and external at the same time.

I'm told a realisation of this is the first step for an initiate undergoing the great work

I think that our true nature is being deliberately concealed from us by left brain operators.....lets call the left brain the reptile part of the brain!

So i think that we are being controlled by a bunch of reptiles who want us to continue in a spiral of pain, rooting us in material plane thinking, instead of transcending. The matrix films provided a pretty good analogy of gnostic beliefs where the matrix of reality sought to ground neo ('new man'). Our reality has its agent smiths who have been peddling a neutered literary version of religion which has concealed from people the true spiritual significance of the teachings in order to control them. For example if you apply a Qabalistic interpretation to the bible it becomes a whole new experience and makes a lot more sense.

All the greek heroic stories about hercules and jason and the argonauts are actually describing aspects of the spiritual journey and i think that in our materialistic consumer culture we have become estranged from our spiritual heritage of a right brain, intuitive and poetic way of viewing the world and our place and role in it

I think that the same stories have been told and retold and the characters given different names. For example i think that the celtic sun god lugh/lud is the same as jesus and horus and king arthur, and robin hood and mithras and the green man, whilst the may queen is mary, isis, maid marion, the earth goddess, queen mab etc etc

Reading these stories literaly is missing the truth that they are trying to convey......notice how hollywood has always peddled a very literal version of these stories because it does not want them acting as tools in our spiritual evolution

The reptiles are controlling things and that's why their is so much violence in the world.....because they are unbalanced....they are cold, callous and unfeeling.....they need to balance with their right side (the bird brain)

'Too much strength is but cruelty and oppression, whilst too much mercy but aids and abets evil'-Frater Achad

The reptiles are all warrior and no monk. They have no compassion only antagonism. They push an educational system on us that breeds left brain prisoners instead of balanced people. They know what they are doing because they have the ancient knowledge but instead of using it to help people to their true potential they use it to control them.

Their lies are endless. The same way they told us that the world was flat and that the earth was the centre of the universe they are now keeping new secrets from us which in time will be found out. I believe that more and more truths will be revealed in the coming years of the nature of reality and of our true nature. The reptiles fear the outcome and they are making their preparations. Laws will get stricter, the wealth will be channeled to the reptiles, the police will get more heavily armed, the internet will be increasingly controlled, the media will intensify its efforts to mould our perceptions of reality and the unbalanced left brain system will continue to cause economic upheval, conflict and environmental damage until people wake up to what they are dealing with

There was an article in the papers today about how the latest 'terrorist' bomber who was planning to blow up a plane with a bomb in his underwear is actually a CIA agent (see article below). The reason for this is simple. The reptiles want to scare the public so that they can justify making changes to the law so they created a threat which they called 'terrorism' to act as a bogeyman. In order to perpetuate the fear of the bogeyman the reptiles have to create threats...even false threats....and some times they even have to stage attacks themselves and blame it on the bogeyman ('false flag' attacks):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/09/underwear-bomber-working-for-cia

When you say reptiles, are you referring to a conspiracy theory about 'reptilians'? Or are you referring to the left side of the brain?

 

[the]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] are you a believer in reptilian shapechangers, or are you trying to make yourself seem super smart and enlightened, or both?

 

[muir]

When you say reptiles, are you referring to a conspiracy theory about 'reptilians'? Or are you referring to the left side of the brain?

I'm referring to the left side of the brain....not folk running around with scales and green blood....though i'm not ruling anything out lol!

I'm trying to first of all throw open a door to possibility by pointing out that modern science isn't even decided on the nature of our reality....so how the hell can we be sure of anything?

So many weird things have happened to me now and i've heard of so many weird things that to be honest i wouldn't be suprised if it turned out we were all living in a giant computer simulation!

There was a great episode of British comedy series 'Red Dwarf' called 'back to reality' where that happened to the characters.......this was way before the matrix films so kudos to the red dwarf writers!

The other thing i'm trying to do is put across a perspective that there are certain understandings of human psychology that have been understood for millenia going way back to ancient Sumeria and perhaps beyond which are still being applied today as a way of controlling people. Enriching this current of knowledge is the work of people life Freud who have added new dimensions to it.

It seems that people in power use different ways to manipulate....we all see this all the time in our lives in 'office politics' for example. So i'm using words as hooks to hang concepts on.

For example calling a left brained way of thinking 'reptillian' and arguing that a culture of left brained thinking is being pushed on us by the elites as a way of controlling us.......by pushing a left brained sense of categorisation and seperateness instead of a right brained sense of oneness and connectedness

A good example of this reptilian idea is tyrannosaurus rex...the king of the lizards: a tyrant or Oliver stones character in his film 'Wallstreet' called Gordon Gheko. Below iss the reptillian Gheko making his famous 'greed is good' speech! Bare in mind that the greed is good philosophy has enabled the bankers to bring about the current global economic depression:

[video=youtube;PF_iorX_MAw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF_iorX_MAw[/video]

 

[muir]

@muir are you a believer in reptilian shapechangers, or are you trying to make yourself seem super smart and enlightened, or both?

lol I'm just opening doors!

I've never invested anything in 'muir's' social cache...if i was i wouldn't deal with so many sensitive subjects and debate with so many people!

I just try to provide new perspectives to discussions (or stick up for the little guy, whoever that is at the time)

 

[Rferraris]

I just saw a documentary about Stephen Hawking's newest discovery: did God create the universe

He is suggesting the regularly accepted principles of God, i.e. Judea, Christian, Islamic. Monotheistic ideas are not needed to explain how the universe exists or how we, you and I got here.
That's all he's saying. He isn't suggesting something didn't create the environment for the universe to begin.

He discovered that the universe, before the big bang, was a black hole. he also discovered that a black hole doesn't only absorb all matter and even light, but also time. This means that inside a black hole, time stands still, time does not exist.

He hasn't discovered that, its still theory and not his. It's a singularity where space and time, which is space, are at, from our perspective, a zero point.

If that is true, questions like "who created the universe" or "what caused the creation of the universe" are non-sensical. It is like asking where is the edge of the earth. Since the earth is spherical it doesn't has an edge. An event can only have a cause when time exist. Since time did not exist before the big bang, nothing could have caused the big bang, because nothing happened before the big bang.

It in my opinion it is very sensical to wonder.
A petri dish or some experiment sounds very likely. Remember an ant is completely unaware of you. To the best of our knowledge. But in contrast, and I maintain we might be wrong, we are a superior existence.

besides this he also discovered the answer to "where does matter comes from". Matter that appears out of nothing is not something that we are familiar with in our daily lives. But on the subatomic level, it does happen. Subatomic particles can appear out of nothing and disappear again. But a particle doesn't just appear out of nothing. When it appears also something else appears: anti-matter, the opposite of matter. It is like when you built a mountain of sand. To built a mountain you need to take sand from an other place and eventually you are not only making a mountain but also a hole.
So if matter is created also anti-matter is created and when you add them up you are left with nothing. That is how matter is created out of nothing. For me this means that matter/the universe/life is just an illusion.

Matter and antimatter have residue and it's its residue or left over matter that is what you experience. The LHC has shown findings in the quest for the Higgs boson. this is a particle as described in our standard model of physics that give matter to a particle. It's better to say the particles or matter and anti matter annihilate each other and the particles that are left over get their mass from some place. We think the Higgs or some derivation of the Higgs or maybe another particle all together but at the energy we have made our recent findings and if they prove true it is likely something close to the Higgs which gives particles their mass.

I think all this is really fascinating and pops up more questions. If time isn't as solid as we experience it (a black hole can make time go slower and eventually stop), then what the hell is time and is our life really linear or can it be that everything happens at the same time.

and even though he proved that you don't need a god to create the universe, I can't stop but wonder "what is the purpose of the universe, why did it start, will it ever end? how many universes are there, ...?

Great questions. Welcome to the world of physics. There are a lot of people that walk around salivating in awe as we wonder about the implications.

If you haven't heard, read, watch anything about the double slit experiment you very much need to start there. Find a
Movie by dr. Quantum ( it's a cartoon) search youtube. Yes this is an illusion. And we have proved it. Things are in two places at the same instance. Partcles change behavior based on observation. Read about collapsing the quantum wave We just don't understand how to explain it so people don't kill themselves in panic, or in a way they would understand. I know, that might sound condescending, but it's been my experience people are quick to jump off buildings when they don't understand.

 

[Rferraris]

what is god?
it is a imagined being that has created everything and has been used to explain everything that we couldn't understand: nature phenomena, why we exist, how we where created, what the right way of living is, ...
In fact, everything we don't know can be explained by use of God. Now that we can explain more and more, do we really need a God?

But besides the "common sense of god" there is more.
what I find fascinating is that all religions in the world are different in their profane teachings. But if you dig deeper to the mystics of the religions, they all talk about the same things: all is one, duality is an illusion, you'll find the truth in yourself

so yeah, I'm really starting to believe that we are all part of something/nothing and that hole could very well be called God

in taoism it is called Tao. And Tao is described as the "form without form" that gives birth to existence that manifests itself in the "duality" yin and yang. The 2 play a never ending dance, one can not exist without the other, one causes the other, ... They are in search of a balance and by doing so they cause the third dimension "tj'i (force)". The third dimension (the sum is more than its parts, 1+1=3, you me and the force that binds us) causes the 10.000 things --> Tao expressed in matter (flesh and blood?)

(sounds a lot like the birth of Christ)
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

Maybe god is whatever your experience is.

If I tell you to bake a cake and you put all the ingredients together, turn on the oven and bake accordingly, you stand there surprised at how wonderful the cake is and how it couldn't be a coincidence. There must be a god. Or what again?

 

[Rferraris]

what is god?
it is a imagined being that has created everything and has been used to explain everything that we couldn't understand: nature phenomena, why we exist, how we where created, what the right way of living is, ...
In fact, everything we don't know can be explained by use of God. Now that we can explain more and more, do we really need a God?

But besides the "common sense of god" there is more.
what I find fascinating is that all religions in the world are different in their profane teachings. But if you dig deeper to the mystics of the religions, they all talk about the same things: all is one, duality is an illusion, you'll find the truth in yourself

so yeah, I'm really starting to believe that we are all part of something/nothing and that hole could very well be called God

in taoism it is called Tao. And Tao is described as the "form without form" that gives birth to existence that manifests itself in the "duality" yin and yang. The 2 play a never ending dance, one can not exist without the other, one causes the other, ... They are in search of a balance and by doing so they cause the third dimension "tj'i (force)". The third dimension (the sum is more than its parts, 1+1=3, you me and the force that binds us) causes the 10.000 things --> Tao expressed in matter (flesh and blood?)

(sounds a lot like the birth of Christ)
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

I dislike conversations where eastern thought is likened to western.

The Taoist have out of body experience and complete physical control over their body functions. Which is why they set themselves on fire and don't seem to mind. They practice their lives getting in touch with the conscience that is all around us. They believe this conscience is where we, you and I , all of us come from. We are an expression. There can be no left without a right. Unless you remove dimension all together. We are all am expression of each other. This life is about form, and the balance of nature. What there is there is also the opposite. I often feel its the most important thing i have learned that I don't really understand. Notice the entropy. When ever something comes into existence, even just an idea, all the forces come together against it to create maximum chaos. But in our world there is a driving force to create, too.

Too hard for me to articulate, but if you remove yourself and look at things as though for the first time, it can seem very curious. They are competing always in front of you.

 

[Rferraris]

If there is no time, there can be no change; the converse is true if there is no change time cannot be measured - or simply doesn't exist.

To go from the point when there is no time, or change/movement/etc. to the point where there is change/time a cause/principle of movement/principle of change/principle of distinction must be able to act/effect in a way that is not subject to time, or change. In other words, when there is no time or movement/change only a motionless/timeless (time-independent) cause can act. These qualities are usually styled: 'Eternal cause' (outside of time), and 'unmoved mover' (not subject to change/movement).

Stephen Hawkins, for whatever reason, cannot call this cause God - but it is more likely that this is because his notion of 'god' is defective, rather than his notion of the cause of the universe. Remember that he is a physicist and not a philosopher, or theologian.


Whatever physicists, or others, determine to be the cause of the existence of the universe -this is what philosophers should call God, or at least the manner of causality should be listed as part of His attributes.

Sorry, jmo, but that was his point. Everything is explained and makes sense without god. Your definition of god. The regularly accepted ideas about god. God isn't needed. Unless you call god the force that put all the pieces together before the so mysterious big bang.

 

[Quiet]

That sounds like something from the book "The Secret" which I think is a retarded book. What about starving kids in Africa born with AIDS? Can they create their own reality?

This is what I believe. That we all create our reality. Even the starving kids in Africa. Where it gets complicated is that what you think and create is based on what you 'know' and believe. So both ignorance and being too stuck in any paradigm will limit you. Also there are certain rules that cant be changed- like growing back a limb, being born with a particular defect, but everything else if fair game. We create our reality individually and culturally. If we all wanted and believed kids in africa can stop starving and not get aids it would happen. All our realities merge and can influence each other. Our motivations for doing things are very important, love is the most powerful creative tool. If someone had aids and really believed that they would get better, than they would. If someone was starving and believed they would find find than they would. This is why capiltalism is so dangerous, because it blinds us to the fact that we are all interconnected. The world only has so much suffereing because of our fear, ignorance and laziness. All we need is love, knowledge and drive and we can live in any reality we so choose. You are limited by yourself and what you know. When anyone individual finds joy or suffering, we all are effected. Before conciousness come to earth they set the paramaters for the life that they will live. We choose our families and arrange to meet friends. we come here to learn knowledge, experience, learn how to love and to connect. There is no right or wrong, and no mistakes. It is all experience and we are learning unconditional love.

This is how faith healing, shaminism, magic and esp works. Time is only limiting on the is plane of existance. All our experience is available to us in our subconcious. We all have the power to access it all this information. But even knowing this and practicing can be hard, because our beliefs are constantly limiting us. Everything is possible. Life is what you make it. You are here to learn love

I havent read or heard of the 'secret' so i cant comment on that. But I think this concept is far more than just positive thinking. It is everything

Edit: And if anything thinks this is nonsense, just try it. Just try living like this and see what happens. You have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

If someone had aids and really believed that they would get better, than they would.

I enjoyed what you wrote, but this statement isn't true.

 

[whytiger]

First of all, I enjoyed reading all the responses to this thread. I love the INFJ intuition. Excuse my INTPness if I come across as frank, or combative, this is not my intention. I am trying to clear up some misconceptions and be helpful.

But I think I should clarify a few points. Stephen Hawking is a brilliant man, but he didn't discover (i.e. observe) these things. He's a theoretical physicist. Also, any objection I make to the reasoning provided in this thread is not a direct objection to his theories per sé, but an objection to the way they have been (misleadingly) presented by the documentary you referred to.

This is true. Stephen Hawking's theories are mostly unproven which is why, despite his fame, he has not won a Nobel Prize.

Subatomic particles do not wander willy nilly into and out of existence. The statement that particles come from nothing is a misguided reference to quantum mechanics, which states that a particle both exists and does not exist in a certain state until observed. This leads to some very interesting and mindbending consequences, but is not analogous to saying that stuff comes from nowhere all the time, plain as day.

Antimatter particles do annihilate matter particles when they collide, but there is nothing beyond speculation and hunches to say that the reverse happens (nothingness spontaneously coalescing into matter and antimatter.) Furthermore, a great deal of energy is released when antimatter and matter collide, which intuitively implies that if nothingness were to beget matter+antimatter pairs a great deal of energy would need to go into the process. And where did that energy come from? Finally, there is the big question of why there is so much more matter than antimatter in our observable universe. This is a big debate among the physics heavyweights and involves complicated conjectures hinged on dark matter and the like.

Hawking radiation, which is the phenomenon being discussed here, does involve the creation and annihilation of subatomic particles that appear "from nothing". This is the vacuum energy---also theorized to be responsible for the Casimir effect. The reason we don't observe them is that they and their energy disappear too quickly. When one of the particles in the pair is pulled into the black hole, however, the other one is released and could be observed as radiation.

If you want to get deeper into the explanation, it has to do with the uncertainty relationship between energy and time. An amount of energy (in the form of these two particles) can be spontaneously generated from nothing provided it is within a short enough time and then it disappears.

 

[Quiet]

I enjoyed what you wrote, but this statement isn't true.

Your dont think its true based on what you believe, know, think and have personally experienced.

I think its true based on what I believe, know, think and have personally experienced. Because of what I have seen and experienced, it is possible for me to know that the statement is true, although it defies years of enculturalisation and common paradigms that I was brought up with.

I can understand and appreciate that it might sound implausible, because its the opposite of what many cultures and religions teach. But please, just try it. Be as self aware as you can, know what you are thinking, question all your beliefs, know your motivations, be mindful, and just concentrate on what you want to manifest. It is hard. I've been doing it purposely for the last 3 months and I still struggle with it sometimes. It is hard to go against what you think you already know. Our minds, our beliefs are so limiting. But its possible. All things are possible. Just try it and you'll see for yourself.

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]

I love your conspiracy theorist mind. The world needs people like you; people who are fascinated by the unknown, pioneers.

 

[MiniHands]

Hawking radiation, which is the phenomenon being discussed here, does involve the creation and annihilation of subatomic particles that appear "from nothing". This is the vacuum energy---also theorized to be responsible for the Casimir effect. The reason we don't observe them is that they and their energy disappear too quickly. When one of the particles in the pair is pulled into the black hole, however, the other one is released and could be observed as radiation.

Thanks, I was aware of uncertainty between energy and time, though I didn't think about that allowing particles coming into and out of existence. That is really interesting I'll go look more into it now.

 

[Matt3737]

I dislike conversations where eastern thought is likened to western.

Niels Bohr designed his own coat of arms featuring the Taoist Taijitu.

 

[MiniHands]

Golf: where east meets west
Clear your head, put. There's only
a hole in one. One

 

[myself]

Be as self aware as you can, know what you are thinking, question all your beliefs, know your motivations, be mindful, and just concentrate on what you want to manifest. It is hard. I've been doing it purposely for the last 3 months and I still struggle with it sometimes. It is hard to go against what you think you already know. Our minds, our beliefs are so limiting. But its possible. All things are possible. Just try it and you'll see for yourself.

power, knowledge and every self-serving thing has always been seductive...
...but what good is it to gain the world? Manifest anything you want... ok, but then what?

I agree that We are here to learn, but why is it so?

Where does unconditional love come from, and who wants us to learn it?

 

[MiniHands]

power, knowledge and every self-serving thing has always been seductive...
...but what good is it to gain the world? Manifest anything you want... ok, but then what?

I agree that We are here to learn, but why is it so?

Where does unconditional love come from, and who wants us to learn it?

These are really good questions. Let me know when you figure them out because I want the answers too.

 

[Quiet]

[MENTION=963]myself[/MENTION] and [MENTION=5452]MiniHands[/MENTION]

I dont think I know all the answers by any means, but I have come to a somewhat limited understanding and peace about these questions.
Im busy for the next week with exams, but when i get a break I'll come back and respond properly to these questions.