LucyJr
Well-known member
- MBTI
- INFJ
Well you could believe everything if this is your reasoning.
Let me ask you a question: Why would you debate the suicide of Jesus if it isn't history?
Did Jesus commit suicide?
- Thread starter 54192&#cmy
- Start date
Let me ask you a question: Why would you debate the suicide of Jesus if it isn't history?
- MBTI
- INTJ
I debate the bible. Its contradiction at it finest. To me looking at this aspect of it is like finding yet another flaw in the bible and goes further to prove its nothing but a creation of man. Other than that, its interesting.
LucyJr
Well-known member
- MBTI
- INFJ
Here are some outside of Scriptures sources on the life of Jesus Christ:
Did Jesus Really Exist? Where is the proof from non-Bible sources that he is real?
These questions and others like it are often asked by Bible skeptics and atheists alike. This article will show that not only is there historical evidence (from secular sources as well as Christian) that Jesus Christ was real and existed, but also that Jesus Christ is the most documented and historically verifiable figure in antiquity.
Historical Evidence of Jesus Christ’s Existence From Sources Outside the Bible
Non Biblical sources
There are many secular historians who lived in the century after the death of Jesus Christ who confirmed his existence. Here are some of them:
Flavius Josephus
According to his Wikipedia entry: “Titus Flavius Josephus (37 – c. 100), was a 1st-century Romano-Jewish historian and hagiographer of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD and the First Jewish–Roman War, which resulted in the Destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70.”
His most important works were The Jewish War (c. 75) and Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94). The Jewish War recounts the Jewish revolt against Roman occupation (66–70). Antiquities of the Jews recounts the history of the world from a Jewish perspective for an ostensibly Roman audience. These works provide valuable insight into 1st century Judaism and the background of Early Christianity.
Josephus was a Jew who did not believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God or Christianity. In The Antiquities of the Jews, book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 the famous historian Flavius Josephus writes:
“Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.” (source)
Later Josephus writes:
“But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.” (source)
Josephus considered one of the greatest historians of antiquity, independently provides proof and evidence that Jesus was a real person who did exist and also confirms the crucifixion of Jesus on the cross under the orders of Pontius Pilate, thus confirming the Biblical account as well.
Tacitus
Cornelius Tacitus was a Roman Historian who lived from 55-120AD. In 115 AD, P. Cornelius Tacitus wrote the following passage that refers to Jesus (called “Christus,” which means “The Messiah”) in book 15, chapter 44 of The Annals after a six-day fire burned much of Rome:
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.” (source)
Despite the fact the clearly despised Christianity as a “mischievous superstition”, Tacitus no less confirms once again the existence of Jesus and His crucifixion on the cross, it also states Pontius Pilate as the procurator who oversaw the crucifixion again giving non-Biblical proof of Jesus’ existence as recorded in the Bible.
Pliny The Younger
Pliny The Younger wrote of his persecution of Christians.
Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus, (61 AD – ca. 112 AD) : “better known as Pliny the Younger, was a lawyer, author, and magistrate of Ancient Rome. According to Wikipedia: “Pliny is known for his hundreds of surviving letters, which are an invaluable historical source for the time period. Many are addressed to reigning emperors or to notables such as the historian, Tacitus. Pliny himself was a notable figure, serving as an imperial magistrate under Trajan (reigned AD 98–117). Pliny was considered an honest and moderate man, consistent in his pursuit of suspected Christian members according to Roman law, and rose through a series of Imperial civil and military offices, the cursus honorum.”
In his correspondence with the emperor Trajan (Epistulae X.96) he reported on his actions against the followers of Christ. He asks the Emperor for instructions dealing with Christians and explained that he forced Christians to curse Christ under painful torturous inquisition:
“They were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of a meal–but ordinary and innocent food.” (source)
So not only was Pliny aware of Jesus Christ, he also provides description of the activities of the early church. In a later writing he details persecution against Christians:
“Even this practice, however, they had abandoned after the publication of my edict, by which, according to your orders, I had forbidden political associations. I therefore judged it so much more the necessary to extract the real truth, with the assistance of torture, from two female slaves, who were styled deaconesses: but I could discover nothing more than depraved and excessive superstition.
In the meanwhile, the method I have observed towards those who have denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were Christians; if they confessed it I repeated the question twice again, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed. For whatever the nature of their creed might be, I could at least feel not doubt that contumacy and inflexible obstinacy deserved chastisement. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.” (source)
So here we see that not only did Pliny not follow the Christian faith, he was torturing Christians and threatening death against them. And he even records that under threat of execution (just for believing in Jesus Christ as God) the early church members refused to deny their faith in Jesus. This is remarkable evidence of Jesus’ existence outside of the Bible.
Julius Africanus and Tallus
Sextus Julius Africanus (c.160 – c.240) was a Christian traveller and historian of the late 2nd and early 3rd century AD. He is important chiefly because of his influence on Eusebius, on all the later writers of Church history among the Fathers, and on the whole Greek school of chroniclers
Julius Africanus quotes the writings of Tallus, who was a first century non-Christian historian. In his Chronicles, Africanus quoting the historian Tallus, explains the reason for it being so dark during the day time on the day of crucifixion of Jesus Christ:
“An eclipse of the sun’unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died.” Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.
The importance of this quote is two fold as it shows: 1) non-Christian proof of Jesus’ existence and 2) yet another confirmation of the Bible’s account of Jesus’ crucifixion. The Bible states in reference to the time Jesus was put on the cross: “Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour”
The “sixth hour” is noon and the ninth hour is 3:00PM. Thus we see that the historian Thallus was trying to explain the odd occurrence of the sky being dark at noon during the crucifxion of Jesus as an eclipse. Africanus also quotes the secular scholar Phlegon, a Greek Historian who lived in the 2nd century AD and also wrote of an eclipse occuring on the day Jesus was crucified. This again provides proof from a non-Christian source that confirms the account of Jesus being a real person who lived as well as confirming the account of His crucifixion straight from the Bible.
Lucian of Samosate
Lucian (Born 115 AD) was a well-known Greek satirist and traveling lecturer. More than eighty works bear his name. He mocked Christians in his writing, but at the same time provided evidence that Jesus really did exist:
“He was second only to that one whom they still worship today, the man in Palestine who was crucified because he brought this new form of initiation into the world.”
“Having convinced themselves that they are immortal and will live forever, the poor wretches despise death and most willingly give themselves to it. Moreover, that first lawgiver of theirs persuaded them that they are all brothers the moment they transgress and deny the Greek gods and begin worshiping that crucified sophist and living by his laws.”
“They scorn all possessions without distinction and treat them as community property. They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time.”
So again, even though Lucian does not mention Jesus by name, there is no doubt he is speaking of the Jesus as he confirms: 1) that he was crucified in “Palestine” (the name of Israel at that time), 2) had followers who believed in eternal life and 3) that they were all equal in Jesus Christ. Lucian even mentions that Christians deny all other gods and believe on “faith alone.” This again is all in accordance with the Bible’s clear statements about the Christian faith and provides even more evidence from outside of the Bible that Jesus, the “man in Palestine” did really exist.
Seutonius
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus commonly known as Suetonius (ca. 69/75 – after 130), was a Roman historian belonging to the equestrian order in the early Imperial era. His most important surviving work is a set of biographies of twelve successive Roman rulers, from Julius Caesar to Domitian, entitled De Vita Caesarum. The description of his writings states:
The emperor Claudius reigned 41 to 54 AD. Suetonius reports his dealings with the eastern Roman Empire, that is, with Greece and Macedonia, and with the Lycians, Rhodians, and Trojans. He then reports that the emperor expelled the Jews from Rome, since they “constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Christ” (Judaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit). The name appears in manuscripts of Suetonius as Chrestus, a form also used by the Roman historian Tacitus to refer to Chrestiani. (source)
Skeptics will point to the different spelling to say “that’s not Jesus he’s talking about!” but again, with the totality of evidence, it’s very obvious that followers of Jesus in the Roman Empire were persecuted by Roman authorities. So it certainly falls in line with the other historical accounts. And there are a number of sources the support the history of Christians in the Roman empire who followed Jesus Christ and being punished for it.
The Bible is Historical Proof That Jesus Existed
The amount of New Testament manuscript evidence of Jesus Christ is greater than any other figure in antiquity.
There is a great logical fallacy among Bible skeptics, atheists and those who like to challenge Christianity that says when discussing the historical aspects of the Bible “you can’t use the Bible as proof that Jesus existed. You must use non-Bible sources!!” To which this author says, “why not?” The four Gospels of the Bible are bibliographical accounts of the life of Jesus. The normal objective measure of the reliability of historical documents is:
1) The number of available copies of ancient manuscripts and
2) the time span between the original version and the date of those copies still in existence today. When examined under this standard, the Bible proves to provide a treasure trove of proof and evidence that Jesus really existed.
Some of the earliest manuscript fragments of the New Testament are the John Rylands Fragment, Chester Beatty Papyrus and the Bodmer Papyrus which were written between 50-100AD. Copies of these papyri were reproduced in 125-200AD, meaning that the time span between the originals and the copies still in existence today is 29 years to 130 years, putting all these manuscripts beings written anywhere from 50-100 years after the death of Jesus Christ. Now some may object and say “Hold on! These manuscripts were written years after Jesus died. There’s no way they could be reliable!” But any expert on ancient documents would disagree.
Let’s look at some of the more famous and universally accepted historical documents and see how they match up with the Bible:
Plato — Plato wrote his works from 427-347 BC. The earliest manuscript copy of Plato’s writing in existence today was written in 900 AD. That is 1,200 years after Plato’s death! And there are only 2 copies of these manuscripts in existence. (source)
Julius Caesar — One of the most celebrated and trusted historical figures. Caesar lived from 100-44 BC and the earliest manuscript copy of his writings dates back to 900 AD, putting our best evidence of Caesar ever existing 1,000 years after his death. And there are 10 copies of ancient manuscripts of Caesar’s Gallic Wars. (source) So if you question the Bible based on when it was written, being “translated so many times” (it was not – we still have the same Greek manuscripts today) and still question whether Jesus existed, then you must also be really sure that Julius Caesar and Plato were completely fictional characters and never really existed.
Homer — Homer, who historians are not even sure ever really existed even today, is credited with writing the Iliad in ca 900 BC. The earliest manuscript copy of the Iliad dates to 400 BC. Meaning the only proof of Homer or the Iliad being accurate is from 500 years after the death of Homer. Additionally there are 643 copies of ancient manuscripts of the Iliad written over the centuries that when compared against each other by experts have a 95.3 consistency and accuracy, making it one of the most reliable and proven documents of antiquity. (source)
That is of course, until you compare it to the New Testament. The New Testament manuscripts date to less than 100 years after the death of Christ. Additionally there are over 5,600 ancient manuscript copies of the New Testament giving it more copies to a degree that dwarfs any other figure of ancient history (to view actual copies of some of these ancient manuscripts, see here). And they have a 99% accuracy when compared to each other. The evidence is not even comparable. And it all points to Jesus Christ. The record of the life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ has more evidence and proof than any other person from antiquity.
Did Jesus Really Exist? Where is the proof from non-Bible sources that he is real?
These questions and others like it are often asked by Bible skeptics and atheists alike. This article will show that not only is there historical evidence (from secular sources as well as Christian) that Jesus Christ was real and existed, but also that Jesus Christ is the most documented and historically verifiable figure in antiquity.
Historical Evidence of Jesus Christ’s Existence From Sources Outside the Bible
Non Biblical sources
There are many secular historians who lived in the century after the death of Jesus Christ who confirmed his existence. Here are some of them:
Flavius Josephus
According to his Wikipedia entry: “Titus Flavius Josephus (37 – c. 100), was a 1st-century Romano-Jewish historian and hagiographer of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD and the First Jewish–Roman War, which resulted in the Destruction of Jerusalem and its temple in 70.”
His most important works were The Jewish War (c. 75) and Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94). The Jewish War recounts the Jewish revolt against Roman occupation (66–70). Antiquities of the Jews recounts the history of the world from a Jewish perspective for an ostensibly Roman audience. These works provide valuable insight into 1st century Judaism and the background of Early Christianity.
Josephus was a Jew who did not believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God or Christianity. In The Antiquities of the Jews, book 18, chapter 3, paragraph 3 the famous historian Flavius Josephus writes:
“Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.” (source)
Later Josephus writes:
“But the younger Ananus who, as we said, received the high priesthood, was of a bold disposition and exceptionally daring; he followed the party of the Sadducees, who are severe in judgment above all the Jews, as we have already shown. As therefore Ananus was of such a disposition, he thought he had now a good opportunity, as Festus was now dead, and Albinus was still on the road; so he assembled a council of judges, and brought before it the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ, whose name was James, together with some others, and having accused them as law-breakers, he delivered them over to be stoned.” (source)
Josephus considered one of the greatest historians of antiquity, independently provides proof and evidence that Jesus was a real person who did exist and also confirms the crucifixion of Jesus on the cross under the orders of Pontius Pilate, thus confirming the Biblical account as well.
Tacitus
Cornelius Tacitus was a Roman Historian who lived from 55-120AD. In 115 AD, P. Cornelius Tacitus wrote the following passage that refers to Jesus (called “Christus,” which means “The Messiah”) in book 15, chapter 44 of The Annals after a six-day fire burned much of Rome:
“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.” (source)
Despite the fact the clearly despised Christianity as a “mischievous superstition”, Tacitus no less confirms once again the existence of Jesus and His crucifixion on the cross, it also states Pontius Pilate as the procurator who oversaw the crucifixion again giving non-Biblical proof of Jesus’ existence as recorded in the Bible.
Pliny The Younger
Pliny The Younger wrote of his persecution of Christians.
Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus, (61 AD – ca. 112 AD) : “better known as Pliny the Younger, was a lawyer, author, and magistrate of Ancient Rome. According to Wikipedia: “Pliny is known for his hundreds of surviving letters, which are an invaluable historical source for the time period. Many are addressed to reigning emperors or to notables such as the historian, Tacitus. Pliny himself was a notable figure, serving as an imperial magistrate under Trajan (reigned AD 98–117). Pliny was considered an honest and moderate man, consistent in his pursuit of suspected Christian members according to Roman law, and rose through a series of Imperial civil and military offices, the cursus honorum.”
In his correspondence with the emperor Trajan (Epistulae X.96) he reported on his actions against the followers of Christ. He asks the Emperor for instructions dealing with Christians and explained that he forced Christians to curse Christ under painful torturous inquisition:
“They were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of a meal–but ordinary and innocent food.” (source)
So not only was Pliny aware of Jesus Christ, he also provides description of the activities of the early church. In a later writing he details persecution against Christians:
“Even this practice, however, they had abandoned after the publication of my edict, by which, according to your orders, I had forbidden political associations. I therefore judged it so much more the necessary to extract the real truth, with the assistance of torture, from two female slaves, who were styled deaconesses: but I could discover nothing more than depraved and excessive superstition.
In the meanwhile, the method I have observed towards those who have denounced to me as Christians is this: I interrogated them whether they were Christians; if they confessed it I repeated the question twice again, adding the threat of capital punishment; if they still persevered, I ordered them to be executed. For whatever the nature of their creed might be, I could at least feel not doubt that contumacy and inflexible obstinacy deserved chastisement. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.” (source)
So here we see that not only did Pliny not follow the Christian faith, he was torturing Christians and threatening death against them. And he even records that under threat of execution (just for believing in Jesus Christ as God) the early church members refused to deny their faith in Jesus. This is remarkable evidence of Jesus’ existence outside of the Bible.
Julius Africanus and Tallus
Sextus Julius Africanus (c.160 – c.240) was a Christian traveller and historian of the late 2nd and early 3rd century AD. He is important chiefly because of his influence on Eusebius, on all the later writers of Church history among the Fathers, and on the whole Greek school of chroniclers
Julius Africanus quotes the writings of Tallus, who was a first century non-Christian historian. In his Chronicles, Africanus quoting the historian Tallus, explains the reason for it being so dark during the day time on the day of crucifixion of Jesus Christ:
“An eclipse of the sun’unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died.” Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18.
The importance of this quote is two fold as it shows: 1) non-Christian proof of Jesus’ existence and 2) yet another confirmation of the Bible’s account of Jesus’ crucifixion. The Bible states in reference to the time Jesus was put on the cross: “Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour”
The “sixth hour” is noon and the ninth hour is 3:00PM. Thus we see that the historian Thallus was trying to explain the odd occurrence of the sky being dark at noon during the crucifxion of Jesus as an eclipse. Africanus also quotes the secular scholar Phlegon, a Greek Historian who lived in the 2nd century AD and also wrote of an eclipse occuring on the day Jesus was crucified. This again provides proof from a non-Christian source that confirms the account of Jesus being a real person who lived as well as confirming the account of His crucifixion straight from the Bible.
Lucian of Samosate
Lucian (Born 115 AD) was a well-known Greek satirist and traveling lecturer. More than eighty works bear his name. He mocked Christians in his writing, but at the same time provided evidence that Jesus really did exist:
“He was second only to that one whom they still worship today, the man in Palestine who was crucified because he brought this new form of initiation into the world.”
“Having convinced themselves that they are immortal and will live forever, the poor wretches despise death and most willingly give themselves to it. Moreover, that first lawgiver of theirs persuaded them that they are all brothers the moment they transgress and deny the Greek gods and begin worshiping that crucified sophist and living by his laws.”
“They scorn all possessions without distinction and treat them as community property. They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time.”
So again, even though Lucian does not mention Jesus by name, there is no doubt he is speaking of the Jesus as he confirms: 1) that he was crucified in “Palestine” (the name of Israel at that time), 2) had followers who believed in eternal life and 3) that they were all equal in Jesus Christ. Lucian even mentions that Christians deny all other gods and believe on “faith alone.” This again is all in accordance with the Bible’s clear statements about the Christian faith and provides even more evidence from outside of the Bible that Jesus, the “man in Palestine” did really exist.
Seutonius
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus commonly known as Suetonius (ca. 69/75 – after 130), was a Roman historian belonging to the equestrian order in the early Imperial era. His most important surviving work is a set of biographies of twelve successive Roman rulers, from Julius Caesar to Domitian, entitled De Vita Caesarum. The description of his writings states:
The emperor Claudius reigned 41 to 54 AD. Suetonius reports his dealings with the eastern Roman Empire, that is, with Greece and Macedonia, and with the Lycians, Rhodians, and Trojans. He then reports that the emperor expelled the Jews from Rome, since they “constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Christ” (Judaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit). The name appears in manuscripts of Suetonius as Chrestus, a form also used by the Roman historian Tacitus to refer to Chrestiani. (source)
Skeptics will point to the different spelling to say “that’s not Jesus he’s talking about!” but again, with the totality of evidence, it’s very obvious that followers of Jesus in the Roman Empire were persecuted by Roman authorities. So it certainly falls in line with the other historical accounts. And there are a number of sources the support the history of Christians in the Roman empire who followed Jesus Christ and being punished for it.
The Bible is Historical Proof That Jesus Existed
The amount of New Testament manuscript evidence of Jesus Christ is greater than any other figure in antiquity.
There is a great logical fallacy among Bible skeptics, atheists and those who like to challenge Christianity that says when discussing the historical aspects of the Bible “you can’t use the Bible as proof that Jesus existed. You must use non-Bible sources!!” To which this author says, “why not?” The four Gospels of the Bible are bibliographical accounts of the life of Jesus. The normal objective measure of the reliability of historical documents is:
1) The number of available copies of ancient manuscripts and
2) the time span between the original version and the date of those copies still in existence today. When examined under this standard, the Bible proves to provide a treasure trove of proof and evidence that Jesus really existed.
Some of the earliest manuscript fragments of the New Testament are the John Rylands Fragment, Chester Beatty Papyrus and the Bodmer Papyrus which were written between 50-100AD. Copies of these papyri were reproduced in 125-200AD, meaning that the time span between the originals and the copies still in existence today is 29 years to 130 years, putting all these manuscripts beings written anywhere from 50-100 years after the death of Jesus Christ. Now some may object and say “Hold on! These manuscripts were written years after Jesus died. There’s no way they could be reliable!” But any expert on ancient documents would disagree.
Let’s look at some of the more famous and universally accepted historical documents and see how they match up with the Bible:
Plato — Plato wrote his works from 427-347 BC. The earliest manuscript copy of Plato’s writing in existence today was written in 900 AD. That is 1,200 years after Plato’s death! And there are only 2 copies of these manuscripts in existence. (source)
Julius Caesar — One of the most celebrated and trusted historical figures. Caesar lived from 100-44 BC and the earliest manuscript copy of his writings dates back to 900 AD, putting our best evidence of Caesar ever existing 1,000 years after his death. And there are 10 copies of ancient manuscripts of Caesar’s Gallic Wars. (source) So if you question the Bible based on when it was written, being “translated so many times” (it was not – we still have the same Greek manuscripts today) and still question whether Jesus existed, then you must also be really sure that Julius Caesar and Plato were completely fictional characters and never really existed.
Homer — Homer, who historians are not even sure ever really existed even today, is credited with writing the Iliad in ca 900 BC. The earliest manuscript copy of the Iliad dates to 400 BC. Meaning the only proof of Homer or the Iliad being accurate is from 500 years after the death of Homer. Additionally there are 643 copies of ancient manuscripts of the Iliad written over the centuries that when compared against each other by experts have a 95.3 consistency and accuracy, making it one of the most reliable and proven documents of antiquity. (source)
That is of course, until you compare it to the New Testament. The New Testament manuscripts date to less than 100 years after the death of Christ. Additionally there are over 5,600 ancient manuscript copies of the New Testament giving it more copies to a degree that dwarfs any other figure of ancient history (to view actual copies of some of these ancient manuscripts, see here). And they have a 99% accuracy when compared to each other. The evidence is not even comparable. And it all points to Jesus Christ. The record of the life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ has more evidence and proof than any other person from antiquity.
LucyJr
Well-known member
- MBTI
- INFJ
In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus), did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud) in Judea (Tacitus), but claimed to be God and would return (Eliezar), which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger).
LucyJr
Well-known member
- MBTI
- INFJ
Where is the contradiction in the Bible that reveals Jesus had commited suicide?
- MBTI
- INTJ
Read above. Its was\is the possibility. If I cared enough I would research it. As it is I have more than enough of my own proof to know where the bible came from.
- MBTI
- InFU
“Having convinced themselves that they are immortal and will live forever, the poor wretches despise death and most willingly give themselves to it. Moreover, that first lawgiver of theirs persuaded them that they are all brothers the moment they transgress and deny the Greek gods and begin worshiping that crucified sophist and living by his laws.”
“They scorn all possessions without distinction and treat them as community property. They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time.”
If you welcome death you must welcome suicide for a cause. It's not martyrdom if you know exactly where your going. It's a sacrifice. You sacrifice yourself for what you BELIEVE in. Everyone else will think that you have gone mad. But you know that you are immortal. So it is suicide with a purpose. You have to die to be reborn again. It does not matter how you die. It's just important that your dead from this reality.
I only bring this up because I have been contemplating suicide myself. If Jesus is ok to let himself be killed for his cause. Then why should I not do the same? How many Christians today are willing to die right now on the spot? I am willing to admit that if I died for my own cause that it was a suicide mission because I no longer want to live. So therefore I am willing to do what I have to do to meet that end. Christ in my estimation did the same thing. Except he got a ticket straight to heaven. I most likely will go to hell if I believe Christian doctrine. Which I do not believe anymore. The very people who espouse to believe in Christ are the very people who have done a lot of damage to the world. How many people have died in the name of Christ. Did not the Native Americans believe in God? And was it not the Christians who killed them? If we are all children of God then why do some children get treated so horribly? Jesus was the son of God. Am I not a Son of God? I have been told that I am. So how can Jesus be any more important than any Son of God? If we are all children of God then what makes Jesus any different. What difference is there between him and the criminals who were executed with him that day? I see no difference. Those men were punished by mans laws. Which we all know are unjust. Laws are made to make criminals. And with enough laws we are all criminals.
Man made laws and then man punishes people by those laws. God has left us to our own devices here. We will receive no help in this world. The only help that we will receive is the help that we give one another. There is no super being who is going to come save you. You will die for your cause. And you will have faith in what you believe in. Just as the other person killing you believes that you need to die. People play God everyday. They judge you and condemn you. People never realize that they create the crimes that they punish. That by their own action or inaction things happen. I believe that Jesus was real. I believe that he died. The rest of the events are suspect. And I see the results 2014 years later as causing more harm than good in the world. And I wonder what God it is that Christians are worshiping....
“They scorn all possessions without distinction and treat them as community property. They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time.”
If you welcome death you must welcome suicide for a cause. It's not martyrdom if you know exactly where your going. It's a sacrifice. You sacrifice yourself for what you BELIEVE in. Everyone else will think that you have gone mad. But you know that you are immortal. So it is suicide with a purpose. You have to die to be reborn again. It does not matter how you die. It's just important that your dead from this reality.
I only bring this up because I have been contemplating suicide myself. If Jesus is ok to let himself be killed for his cause. Then why should I not do the same? How many Christians today are willing to die right now on the spot? I am willing to admit that if I died for my own cause that it was a suicide mission because I no longer want to live. So therefore I am willing to do what I have to do to meet that end. Christ in my estimation did the same thing. Except he got a ticket straight to heaven. I most likely will go to hell if I believe Christian doctrine. Which I do not believe anymore. The very people who espouse to believe in Christ are the very people who have done a lot of damage to the world. How many people have died in the name of Christ. Did not the Native Americans believe in God? And was it not the Christians who killed them? If we are all children of God then why do some children get treated so horribly? Jesus was the son of God. Am I not a Son of God? I have been told that I am. So how can Jesus be any more important than any Son of God? If we are all children of God then what makes Jesus any different. What difference is there between him and the criminals who were executed with him that day? I see no difference. Those men were punished by mans laws. Which we all know are unjust. Laws are made to make criminals. And with enough laws we are all criminals.
Man made laws and then man punishes people by those laws. God has left us to our own devices here. We will receive no help in this world. The only help that we will receive is the help that we give one another. There is no super being who is going to come save you. You will die for your cause. And you will have faith in what you believe in. Just as the other person killing you believes that you need to die. People play God everyday. They judge you and condemn you. People never realize that they create the crimes that they punish. That by their own action or inaction things happen. I believe that Jesus was real. I believe that he died. The rest of the events are suspect. And I see the results 2014 years later as causing more harm than good in the world. And I wonder what God it is that Christians are worshiping....
Barnabas
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This thread is to broad, everything here needs to be defined.
What is suicide?
Is suicide wrong?
If so why?
Does Jesus death meet the definitions established?
1)Suicide is commonly defined as the intentional act of killing one's self (anybody disagree?)
2)Is the intentional act of killing one's self wrong? Modern views are mostly split on the act of suicide, many consider the act short sighted with consequences that an individual may not while other see it as relief for those with long suffering conditions that show no signs of improving. Still others consider it to be a right for an individual to make his decisions about his own person. Soooo......... no real consensus from modern man, I wonder what the bible has to say about it.
The bible doesn't have a direct answer to whether or not Suicide is wrong, it's simply not brought up. However many people look to ten commandments to find there answer, which quotes "Though Shall Not Murder." Most people take murder to simply mean kill, some Bibles even translate it as kill. However the word used by the writer of exodus is רצח or Ratsach, which has a couple of different definitions because Hebrews. First on the the list is the premeditated slaying, second is the accidental slaying(or slaying through neglect), the third is to avenge and the last is to assassinate.
The point I'm want to make here is that there are multiple words in Hebrew that involve killing ranging from accidental death to a death sentence. The one condemned is however is Ratsach which is has a couple of problems with being used for suicide, the biggest being is that it's an act carried out against another individual(or an act carried out against you by another individual).
That being said it's not suicide isn't looked favorably upon in the bible and is only associated with individuals at their lowest points in life. Furthermore the Jewish oral law(a Jewish momentary on the first five books of the OT) states that man who intentionally commits suicide while in full control of himself will have his burial rights stripped from him.
Finally, the Christian account is that your life is not your own, that you were bought for a price and are expected to make the best use of the body you have to advance the kingdom of God, which 99% of the time does not involve suicide.
3) Does Jesus death meet the definition of suicide? While Jesus clearly knew what his action's were leading up to I don't think that can be marked as suicide. Jesus preyed prior to his arrest for the burden of his job to be passed over him, I don't think you could say he was of a mindset to intentionally take his own life.
Let's put that aside for the moment and go back to ratsach, Jesus wasn't committing the act of taking his own life, that was a process decided and acted out by the Jewish leaders and aided by the roman government and Judas, if someone is guilty of the unlawful taking of life it's them. On top of that Jesus' death can't really be considered a low point like other instances of suicide(or attempts), It's sad, it's somber, but it's also the moment where everything get's better. Throughout the whole of the of the Bible, the old testament and the new God's people have been searching and failing for a way to reconnect with God and finally here at the death of Jesus is that longing fulfilled everything the prophets and kings spoke on was leading up to this moment.
and Finally coming back to the christian approach, Jesus demonstrated more then anyone else that his life was not his own, he submitted to God's will and at this moment the only way to advance God's kingdom was on the cross.
Realistically, people are going to use words differently, they're going to call Jesus death a suicide by roman. But those words don't mean anything, You can say he committed suicide but you can't say he was wrong to do so.
TL;DR, Jesus didn't commit suicide, and even if he did it wrong of him to do so.
Edit: Jesus as a representation as the rising and setting sun or even as the coming of the harvest is nonsense.
What is suicide?
Is suicide wrong?
If so why?
Does Jesus death meet the definitions established?
1)Suicide is commonly defined as the intentional act of killing one's self (anybody disagree?)
2)Is the intentional act of killing one's self wrong? Modern views are mostly split on the act of suicide, many consider the act short sighted with consequences that an individual may not while other see it as relief for those with long suffering conditions that show no signs of improving. Still others consider it to be a right for an individual to make his decisions about his own person. Soooo......... no real consensus from modern man, I wonder what the bible has to say about it.
The bible doesn't have a direct answer to whether or not Suicide is wrong, it's simply not brought up. However many people look to ten commandments to find there answer, which quotes "Though Shall Not Murder." Most people take murder to simply mean kill, some Bibles even translate it as kill. However the word used by the writer of exodus is רצח or Ratsach, which has a couple of different definitions because Hebrews. First on the the list is the premeditated slaying, second is the accidental slaying(or slaying through neglect), the third is to avenge and the last is to assassinate.
The point I'm want to make here is that there are multiple words in Hebrew that involve killing ranging from accidental death to a death sentence. The one condemned is however is Ratsach which is has a couple of problems with being used for suicide, the biggest being is that it's an act carried out against another individual(or an act carried out against you by another individual).
That being said it's not suicide isn't looked favorably upon in the bible and is only associated with individuals at their lowest points in life. Furthermore the Jewish oral law(a Jewish momentary on the first five books of the OT) states that man who intentionally commits suicide while in full control of himself will have his burial rights stripped from him.
Finally, the Christian account is that your life is not your own, that you were bought for a price and are expected to make the best use of the body you have to advance the kingdom of God, which 99% of the time does not involve suicide.
3) Does Jesus death meet the definition of suicide? While Jesus clearly knew what his action's were leading up to I don't think that can be marked as suicide. Jesus preyed prior to his arrest for the burden of his job to be passed over him, I don't think you could say he was of a mindset to intentionally take his own life.
Let's put that aside for the moment and go back to ratsach, Jesus wasn't committing the act of taking his own life, that was a process decided and acted out by the Jewish leaders and aided by the roman government and Judas, if someone is guilty of the unlawful taking of life it's them. On top of that Jesus' death can't really be considered a low point like other instances of suicide(or attempts), It's sad, it's somber, but it's also the moment where everything get's better. Throughout the whole of the of the Bible, the old testament and the new God's people have been searching and failing for a way to reconnect with God and finally here at the death of Jesus is that longing fulfilled everything the prophets and kings spoke on was leading up to this moment.
and Finally coming back to the christian approach, Jesus demonstrated more then anyone else that his life was not his own, he submitted to God's will and at this moment the only way to advance God's kingdom was on the cross.
Realistically, people are going to use words differently, they're going to call Jesus death a suicide by roman. But those words don't mean anything, You can say he committed suicide but you can't say he was wrong to do so.
TL;DR, Jesus didn't commit suicide, and even if he did it wrong of him to do so.
Edit: Jesus as a representation as the rising and setting sun or even as the coming of the harvest is nonsense.
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No one knows the consequences of their actions. If they live long enough to see them then maybe. But most likely they will never realize all the pain that they have put onto other people. If I am to serve God then I am to lay my life down to another person that is going to kill me. And be happy to do it. Knowing that I did Gods will. To sacrifice myself for him. And his cause. A lot of Jews did exactly that in Germany. They were sacrificed for their beliefs. One has to wonder what Gods will really is....
Last edited:
sprinkles
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Did Qiu Jin commit suicide?
She was a Chinese feminist and rebel who wanted to overthrow the Qing government. They caught her friend Xu Xilin, who under pressure confessed to what they were doing, and they killed him. Shortly after they also caught Qiu Jin. They said her life would be saved if she wrote a confession letter. Instead of writing the confession letter, she wrote: "The autumn wind and autumn rain agonize me so much."
They chopped off her head.
She was a Chinese feminist and rebel who wanted to overthrow the Qing government. They caught her friend Xu Xilin, who under pressure confessed to what they were doing, and they killed him. Shortly after they also caught Qiu Jin. They said her life would be saved if she wrote a confession letter. Instead of writing the confession letter, she wrote: "The autumn wind and autumn rain agonize me so much."
They chopped off her head.
say what
I like soft things...so soft!
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You call your points fact - but I agree with [MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION], they're just story by mouth...and yet, given scientific evidence and anecdotal accounts, you don't believe mental health is real?
Side note: Wikipedia, while a great source of information, is not a credible source of information/data/knowledge
say what
I like soft things...so soft!
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I think this is a really interesting question [MENTION=95]efromm[/MENTION] ....while I can't really comment on the actual story behind the death of Christ, it does make me think about how the answer to this question could lead into the sin of taking one's life...what would be the implications of Jesus committing suicide? Does that make him a sinner?
LucyJr
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Consider there is a alot of historical credibility, much more than is to take as facts the accounts of Caesar, Homer, and many greek philosophers. Nobody is doubting their "stories". Yet when it comes to the accounts of historical Jesus, we have alot of problems there, isn't it?
"story by mouth" - can you explain this expression to me? because it seems to me that the whole and the entire history that we know of today has come to us by "mouth"...mouth on paper, thoughts on paper.
of course I believe mental health is real
and I also believe mental illness is real
I just refuse to accept the lie that some people called "psychiatrists" know exactly what they are doing when it comes to treating mental illness.
If you want to continue this discussion can we move it to my blog, please
? (so as to not change the topic of the thread)
Barnabas
Time Lord
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jupiterswoon
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Interesting!
say what
I like soft things...so soft!
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Tbh, I don't know enough of Caesar, Homer and greek philosophy to know of their factual accounts...but from my understanding is that they are giving their account of history, life, etc. from their own perspective - their own opinion...which, while there is some factual basis, it is open to interpretation. What one person experiences, maybe be completely different from another.
The Bible has had significant influence on so many people throughout history, and has lead to a lot of good, but a lot of bad. I think people, or at least I know I do, find it difficult to justify it all based on a book that was written by someone - and is essentially their own account/opinion of an event...and there's not physical evidence to support it.
For me, to say the Bible is truth, is difficult...as I think that it's only as true as the individual perspective of the person who wrote it!
of course I believe mental health is real
and I also believe mental illness is real
I just refuse to accept the lie that some people called "psychiatrists" know exactly what they are doing when it comes to treating mental illness.
If you want to continue this discussion can we move it to my blog, please
For sure!
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Why was he killed to start with? Was it the Romans quelling a possible insurrection or the Judean Priests preserving their power. Historians seem to think the Romans but the Mark says Pilot did not want to kill him.
(I do fear a wallpapering of anti Zionism in posting this question)
(I do fear a wallpapering of anti Zionism in posting this question)
say what
I like soft things...so soft!
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I think this is an interesting point, and touches on what [MENTION=1848]Barnabas[/MENTION] mentioned - how do we define suicide?
La Sagna
I did it! I'm a butterfly!
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The idea of 'suicide for a cause' sounds like the terrorists who blow themselves up believing that they will go to heaven as a martyr.
I agree there has been a lot of harm done in the World by Christians but I also know that there has been a lot of good done in the world by Christians. Some people use Christianity for an excuse to act in a way that in my opinion is not Christian at all. Others have found a lot of comfort and guidance through Christianity. In my opinion whether there is a God or not or Christ is our Saviour or not the belief in God and Jesus has helped many people to cope with the trials and tribulations of life. I have read Nietzsche and I find his ideas very interesting and his 'slave' and 'master' theory quite plausible but to me it makes sense that humans developed such beliefs because it can make life a lot easier to bear. I choose to believe because it gives me somebody to pray to and to ask help from. I feel lonely as it is I can't imagine the loneliness of not believing in some sort of higher power and a meaning for our life.
William James' take on religion resonates with me:
He is definitely worth a read, especially for people who match his description of the 'sick soul'.
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You have to realize that this question came to me while I was in deep thought last night while riding my bike. It occurred to me that maybe he wanted to die. To see the suffering in this world that maybe it was too much for him. Some say that he is an infj. So I can understand this thought process I guess. I just wonder why it was for everyone's good that he dies? I just do not subscribe to the whole he died for my sins. My sins are my own. They have nothing to do with Jesus. If Jesus knew my sins beforehand then why do I need saving? IT was supposed to happen that way. My life is not my own then. I am akin to a computer program that just runs and runs without the ability to have control or free will to do as I choose.
I am looking at religion because I want to understand. I want to know the truth. I want to know exactly what it is that I am believing and what I am not believing. I am trying look at this with my eyes wide open. I once told the Mormon missionaries that if I was the Devil that I would deceive the world by writing a book and then getting everyone to bow down to me and not even know it. They looked at me very shockingly. Joseph Smith could have done that very thing. Or even the ones who put the bible together. You really do not know. That is the problem. If God wanted to be known I believe that he would let you know that he is here.
We are all in this experience together. None of us knows why we are here. What it is that we should be doing. Or how we should be doing it. It's like one day we woke up and here we are. We don't even know where here is. And yet their are people out there that know with such certainty that they will kill over a belief system that they do not even know is real or not. This life is a feking drag. It starts out with you having hope and love and it ends with no hope and little love. You are going to die alone. For it is only you that passes into the darkness in your experience of death. If we even get one at all. I am not saying that their is not love and hope. But I find that love and hope fall apart. If I experience this others do as well. We are all going through this stuff. We are all suffering. If we are in suffering where are we really? What is this world that we have come to know. Religion claims to know. But as far as I can tell for me it leaves me cold. I am who and what I am. So for me this is a serious quest. I think about this everyday. I have more time than most to entertain my own thoughts. And so I do. All my waking hours are spent on this quest for understanding life as I see it.
I do not know if Jesus committed suicide. I wonder if he did. I can ponder it. But will I know it? If he did It really changes nothing for me. I understand dying for your principles. I understand walking right into your fate on purpose. That is why I question what he did. I think what he did was sacrifice himself. Suicide could come at his own hand. He forced them to kill him or let him go. They chose death. And he died. I am not the only person to ask this question. Others have asked it before. I looked it up online today and found some interesting stuff about the subject. It definitely makes you think though....
I am looking at religion because I want to understand. I want to know the truth. I want to know exactly what it is that I am believing and what I am not believing. I am trying look at this with my eyes wide open. I once told the Mormon missionaries that if I was the Devil that I would deceive the world by writing a book and then getting everyone to bow down to me and not even know it. They looked at me very shockingly. Joseph Smith could have done that very thing. Or even the ones who put the bible together. You really do not know. That is the problem. If God wanted to be known I believe that he would let you know that he is here.
We are all in this experience together. None of us knows why we are here. What it is that we should be doing. Or how we should be doing it. It's like one day we woke up and here we are. We don't even know where here is. And yet their are people out there that know with such certainty that they will kill over a belief system that they do not even know is real or not. This life is a feking drag. It starts out with you having hope and love and it ends with no hope and little love. You are going to die alone. For it is only you that passes into the darkness in your experience of death. If we even get one at all. I am not saying that their is not love and hope. But I find that love and hope fall apart. If I experience this others do as well. We are all going through this stuff. We are all suffering. If we are in suffering where are we really? What is this world that we have come to know. Religion claims to know. But as far as I can tell for me it leaves me cold. I am who and what I am. So for me this is a serious quest. I think about this everyday. I have more time than most to entertain my own thoughts. And so I do. All my waking hours are spent on this quest for understanding life as I see it.
I do not know if Jesus committed suicide. I wonder if he did. I can ponder it. But will I know it? If he did It really changes nothing for me. I understand dying for your principles. I understand walking right into your fate on purpose. That is why I question what he did. I think what he did was sacrifice himself. Suicide could come at his own hand. He forced them to kill him or let him go. They chose death. And he died. I am not the only person to ask this question. Others have asked it before. I looked it up online today and found some interesting stuff about the subject. It definitely makes you think though....