Do you believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead?

[Billy]

Well thats sort of the crux of what I am talking about.

1. what faith? Faith in what? Not the tenets of the religion clearly.

 

[Billy]

How do you know what it takes to be a 'real christian?' Is there a particular verse you're referring to, or just dogma?

Yes. The whollllllllle 2nd part of the bible where Jesus showed up, the one that invented the religion and holds the rules of the religion you are blatantly ignoring.

 

[Billy]

@acd I'm not a christian, nor do I go to church. I just try to understand the bible from a christians perspective.

Got it. thanks for finally being honest.

 

[Kmal]

Yes. The whollllllllle 2nd part of the bible where Jesus showed up, the one that invented the religion and holds the rules of the religion you are blatantly ignoring.

You've not convinced me. I'm gonna need specifics, otherwise you're just bullshitting.

Got it. thanks for finally being honest.

lol youre implying I was being deceitful. did I take the bait?

Incorrect. You have to literally believe that Christ rose from the dead, in order to be a real Christian. Moreso that he died for your sins, to say that that's just a parable, is absurd. Its like saying I am a communist but don't believe in any of its tenets or follow any of it, and yet still proclaim the title for myself. Its nonsense.

Do you understand what a parable is? It is a story to teach a lesson. Just because you understand how communism works doesnt make you a communist. You must understand the lesson Christianity teaches, not believe the literal occurances at face value.

 

[Jill Hives]

No.

Do you also think vegetarians who label themselves as such but still eat fish and/or chicken are really vegetarians? They believe they are, so that must mean it's true.

Also, was gonna mention before that Kmal never claimed to be a Christian. Since he actually came right out and said it now, let me just say, not surprised! I had a hunch that was so, because I honestly can't imagine a truly devout Christian saying something like "Jesus being risen from the dead was a parable". It makes a lot of sense for a non-Christian to relate to that story in such a way, but not so much for an actual Christian.

 

[Kmal]

Do you also think vegetarians who label themselves as such but still eat fish and/or chicken are really vegetarians? They believe they are, so that must mean it's true.

Also, was gonna mention before that Kmal never claimed to be a Christian. Since he actually came right out and said it now, let me just say, not surprised! I had a hunch that was so, because I honestly can't imagine a truly devout Christian saying something like "Jesus being risen from the dead was a parable". It makes a lot of sense for a non-Christian to relate to that story in such a way, but not so much for an actual Christian.

I guess a better way of saying it would be "the Bible operates as a parable." If it's soothing that you think it literally occured, by all means believe it; but remember it has a lesson to teach as well! Some people get hung up on the literal happenings and miss out on the meaning. I'd just like for that not to happen.

 

[muir]

Birth, life, death and rebirth cycles are as old as the hills. They go to the core of the human experience and can also be seen in nature with the cycles of the sun and moon with the changing of the seasons and with the flooding of rivers like the Nile

The resurrection god is far older than the christian concept.....christianity was born out of older ideas....a re-telling of old ideas

Many peoples dreams involve death and rebirth....just listen to some of the descriptions of peoples dreams even on this forum. Its an archetype of the unconcsious mind

Interpreting what the unconscious mind is saying is very difficult....perhaps more of an art than a science because despite the collective unconscious that we all inherit energy from our dreams are individual to us

In the bible Joseph of the technicoloured dream coat was very gifted at interpreting dreams and ended up working for the pharoah he was so gifted. And why was he so gifted? Because he was a mystic....an explorer of the unconscious mind.

His 'technicoloured dream coat' was none other than his aura which showed that he was an adept.....a position of grace that drew jelousy from his brothers who hated him for his gifts so they cast him into a hole in the ground and left him to die

There is also the process of rising through the planes that a magician seeks to undergo. The mystical power behind the bible is from Qabalah and the magician seeks to rise through the spheres of the tree of life to seek union with the divine

There is a place on this path where the magician must shed everything and cross over the abyss. These are perhaps the greek rivers of hades that a person must cross to enter the underworld or the kormt and ormt rivers that odin wades through to get to the ygdrassil

If Jesus was truely an adept then he will have passed through the veils and been reborn into life anew

The phoenix is a common symbol in egytpian mythology which is a bird that burns and then rises anew from the ashes....it has significance to alchemists because it is once again indicative of transformation

Jesus was part of the qumran community and they were dealing with some pretty potent spiritual energies. his brethren John the Baptist baptised people in the river Jordan which is itself a symbolic rebirth ritual

Jesus turned people at a wedding from 'water into wine' as he initiated them into his spiritual system

To cross the abyss is to face the demon that lies within....to face your demon in order to attain universal consciousness. To do so you must be ready and pure of heart:
1The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.
2He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
3he restores my soul.
He guides me in paths of righteousness
for his name’s sake.
4Even though I walk
through the valley of the shadow of death,[SUP]a[/SUP]
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
5You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6Surely goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the Lord
forever.

Many cultures dealth with the process of life, death and rebirth/transformation see for example the egyptian book of the dead and the tibetan book of the dead

 

[Jill Hives]

I guess a better way of saying it would be "the Bible operates as a parable." If it's soothing that you think it literally occured, by all means believe it; but remember it has a lesson to teach as well!

This has nothing to do with what I believe, I am not a Christian. I am simply saying that, that is not how actual Christians view it. I get your point, truly. I even agree. But again, I am not a Christian. If I were, I would disagree. There are many stories in the bible that would be referred to as parables by Christians, but the resurrection of Christ is not one of them. That is an actual literal belief of the faith.

 

[Kmal]

This has nothing to do with what I believe, I am not a Christian. I am simply saying that, that is not how actual Christians view it. I get your point, truly. I even agree. But again, I am not a Christian. If I were, I would disagree. There are many stories in the bible that would be referred to as parables by Christians, but the resurrection of Christ is not one of them. That is an actual literal belief of the faith.

I'm not necessarily talking to you. I think that while some 'christians' would argue that you have to literally believe he rose from the dead to 'be a christian,' that doesnt make them right. Even if it doesnt come right out and say the death and resurrection is a parable, it operates as one since it has a lesson to learn from it. Even in a parable, the people can use parables. Saying 'I am a Christian' or 'I am not a Christian' doesnt make you a "Christian" or not. What is a Christian? Someone who claims to believe the story at face value and loudly proclaims their righteousness, or someone who understands the meaning of it and puts it to practice? Or something different entirely? Is there stigma about "being a Christian" that blocks you from wanting to understand it?

 

[GracieRuth]

I'm kind of bored, so I'll chat about this a little bit.

I do not now believe that brother J rose from the dead. However, I was raised Christian, and back when I was Christian I did believe it quite literally.

Christianity is a religion of orthodoxy, meaning right beliefs or right ideas. Not all religions are (Judaism is i.e. a religion of orthopraxy, right actions). That means to call yourself a christian you have to profess as true a certain list of beliefs, such as the Nicene Creed. One of the items on the list is believing that Jesus rose from the dead.

The most irritating example of this was one of my brother's old girlfriends, who pastored a Church of Christ, and who did NOT believe in the virgin birth, did NOT believe in the resurrection, did NOT beleived that Jesus died for the sins of the world, did NOT believe that Jesus was the messiah... She was basically an ethical monotheist, but hardly what I'd call a Christian.

I realize there are well meaning "cultural" Christians who have been raised with Christmas trees and Easter Egg hunts and pictures of Jesus surrounded by children. They have lots of sentimental ties to Christianity, but they just don't make the cut when it comes to that profession of faith. I can understand their emotional NEED to identify as a Christian, but, well, no cigar. Knowing the 23 Psalm by heart doesn't make you a Christian.

On the other hand, these cultural Christians obviously aren't Muslim, Atheist, Toaist, or Wiccan. Do you see what I'm saying? While not strictly Christian, there is no other box they fit into. So be nice to them. They WANT to belong.

Taize does a version of the Kyrie where they pray "For those who CANNOT believe, Kyrie eleison." I remember thinking how kind that prayer was, that it showed compassion rather than judgment. After all, if a person doesn't believe, its not because they are "bad," but simply because they are not convinced.

 

[muir]

I'm kind of bored, so I'll chat about this a little bit.I do not now believe that brother J rose from the dead. However, I was raised Christian, and back when I was Christian I did believe it quite literally..

In the early years of christianity there were many different interpretations of the nature of christThe Romans decided at the Council of Nicea which version they would package and sell to the people and which versions they would stamp out as heresy

They chose a very literal translation because they wanted to destroy the transformative power of the message.....they wanted to destroy its potency

They wanted to condition the public to interprete things literally instead of symbolically, metaphorically and abstractly because therein is the realm of your unconscious mind. From that misty realm that so many left brained dominants seem completely unable to get a handle on springs forthoetry, music, art, spiritual concepts, emotions, inspiration and all the other things that seem like a divine gift

The left brained dominants are very good at repeating what they have been taught or what they have been trained to do, but they are not visionaries and they are not ideas people. Even scientists like einstein said he had flashes of genius when he was dreaming or in absent minded moments as they floated up from the unconscious mind.

Who do you think has the creative, inspired break throughs of the imagination? Do you think it is the left brained dominants who cling so tightly to the current dogma or paradigm? No it is those who listen to their unconscious mind that receive its grace

Left brained dominants are just repeaters....they repeat what they've been told.....they're not innovators. But boy do they love telling someone who comes with a different perspective that they are just plain wrong and that the world is flat as the authorities say it is and they are right because everyone knows that the world is flat! What happens to the inspired people who say: 'the world is round' or the 'sun is at the centre of the galaxy not the earth'.......they get crucified everytime by those that are terrified of threats to the status quo

Well those that want to preserve the status quo will always be threatened by visionaries and they will always seek to apply a literal version of events to stop people accessing the less easily defined unconscious mind

Christianity is a religion of orthodoxy, meaning right beliefs or right ideas. Not all religions are (Judaism is i.e. a religion of orthopraxy, right actions). That means to call yourself a christian you have to profess as true a certain list of beliefs, such as the Nicene Creed. One of the items on the list is believing that Jesus rose from the dead...

This is not being fair to christianity. The bible says that you should judge a tree by its fruit...this means judge someone by their actions

While i'm on that subject i just want to say that people can also apply that litmus test to the actions of their country. If they are still bound up in the nationalist psychic trap perhaps they can ask themselves truthfully: 'what fruit has your country really given forth....peace or conflict?'

Concerning the nicean creed i have already explained how that was a stage managed event geared around ensuring that the Roman empire created a new mode of thinking to ensure stability of the empire by controlling how people perceived reality. They created a perception of reality (a version of 'christian' events) and then they enforced it through violence and threats. Arius an outspoken opponent of the state sanctioned version of christianity was violently assaulted and later poisoned to death

The most irritating example of this was one of my brother's old girlfriends, who pastored a Church of Christ, and who did NOT believe in the virgin birth, did NOT believe in the resurrection, did NOT beleived that Jesus died for the sins of the world, did NOT believe that Jesus was the messiah... She was basically an ethical monotheist, but hardly what I'd call a Christian.

If she found a meaningful message in the bible and applied it in her life then i'd say she was a christian....and a damned sight more switched on than most

alize there are well meaning "cultural" Christians who have been raised with Christmas trees and Easter Egg hunts and pictures of Jesus surrounded by children. They have lots of sentimental ties to Christianity, but they just don't make the cut when it comes to that profession of faith. I can understand their emotional NEED to identify as a Christian, but, well, no cigar. Knowing the 23 Psalm by heart doesn't make you a Christian.

Their faith is ulimately their business and to me it does not revolve around whether or not they think a guy lived 2000 years ago that could defy the laws of physics

Magick is simply self psychology. That's why the elites want it buried...because it liberates people. they want to keep its methods for themselves or to missapply them to control people. Psychology wasn't born in the 'modern' era its very old!

On the other hand, these cultural Christians obviously aren't Muslim, Atheist, Toaist, or Wiccan. Do you see what I'm saying? While not strictly Christian, there is no other box they fit into. So be nice to them. They WANT to belong.Taize does a version of the Kyrie where they pray "For those who CANNOT believe, Kyrie eleison." I remember thinking how kind that prayer was, that it showed compassion rather than judgment. After all, if a person doesn't believe, its not because they are "bad," but simply because they are not convinced. .

This isn't about fitting into boxes!!!!

This is about peoples personal intuitive spiritual journey and that might include aspects of all the things you have mentioned above

Fitting into boxes is a very left brained way of thinking about things and the aim of spirituality is generally perceived to be related to connection not seperation

 

[benny]

I don't believe that Jesus rose from the dead, or that he was borne of a virgin. I don't believe he was the son of god, except in the sense that we're all children of god. I believe he was a regular ol' human like the rest of us. Just a very wise and spiritual one. (I was raised Christian, and boy did that screw me over. Not religious now.)

 

[Rferraris]

Seems like my post was so long ago

 

[the]

I'm kind of bored, so I'll chat about this a little bit.

I do not now believe that brother J rose from the dead. However, I was raised Christian, and back when I was Christian I did believe it quite literally.

Christianity is a religion of orthodoxy, meaning right beliefs or right ideas. Not all religions are (Judaism is i.e. a religion of orthopraxy, right actions). That means to call yourself a christian you have to profess as true a certain list of beliefs, such as the Nicene Creed. One of the items on the list is believing that Jesus rose from the dead.

The most irritating example of this was one of my brother's old girlfriends, who pastored a Church of Christ, and who did NOT believe in the virgin birth, did NOT believe in the resurrection, did NOT beleived that Jesus died for the sins of the world, did NOT believe that Jesus was the messiah... She was basically an ethical monotheist, but hardly what I'd call a Christian.

I realize there are well meaning "cultural" Christians who have been raised with Christmas trees and Easter Egg hunts and pictures of Jesus surrounded by children. They have lots of sentimental ties to Christianity, but they just don't make the cut when it comes to that profession of faith. I can understand their emotional NEED to identify as a Christian, but, well, no cigar. Knowing the 23 Psalm by heart doesn't make you a Christian.

On the other hand, these cultural Christians obviously aren't Muslim, Atheist, Toaist, or Wiccan. Do you see what I'm saying? While not strictly Christian, there is no other box they fit into. So be nice to them. They WANT to belong.

Taize does a version of the Kyrie where they pray "For those who CANNOT believe, Kyrie eleison." I remember thinking how kind that prayer was, that it showed compassion rather than judgment. After all, if a person doesn't believe, its not because they are "bad," but simply because they are not convinced.

who's taize?

 

[the]

I just want to go on record as saying I do literally believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Watching nonchristians argue amongst themselves as to who is a Real Christian[SUP]tm [/SUP]Is kind of funny to me though.

 

[muir]

Seems like my post was so long ago

You mentioned red fairies and green goblins....

.....these are archetypes of the unconscious mind which is why they crop up again and again around the world in different cultures:

the faerie people, the norse green man, the irish leprochauns, the american mescalito, the ufologists little green men, Tolkeins Tom bamboddil etc

Its all there inside you in the collective unconscious and you can meet these entities if you explore those realms

 

[Kmal]

I just want to go on record as saying I do literally believe that Jesus rose from the dead. Watching nonchristians argue amongst themselves as to who is a Real Christian[SUP]tm [/SUP]Is kind of funny to me though.

What are your thoughts on the 'real christian?'

 

[the]

What are your thoughts on the 'real christian?'

I just take peoples word for it usually. It's a lot to live up to really and I have no idea when meeting someone what their life or experiences have been up to that point. Maybe they just became one? Naturally I will try to get into their business about it and find out more. I suppose if I was in a position to judge something like this I would need to be more intimately acquainted with the person in question.

Personally, I'm in the Orthodox Catholic segment of the christian population, we arent really into saying who isnt a christian but we know it when we see it. (at least we think we do) That is good enough for me.

@Jill Hives example kind of stuck with me. Would I say a vegetarian who eats meat is still a vegetarian? Yes. I know a few vegetarians and they once in a while unknowingly eat beef broth or any meat stuffs. You are gonna make mistakes no matter what, and their intention in life is to never eat animals so I say good on them.

I was a little surprised to see the Real Christian [SUP]TM [/SUP]Thrown out so early, and without someone calling out a No True Scotsman fallacy. I have been on my share of religious, mainly christian, forums for a long time and that is usually how these debates go down. Pointless really. Especially when the only people discussing it aren't even in the "in" crowd. Now someone would say "but I was raised christian/catholic/whatever". To which I will reply "who cares?" I mean you didnt even understand it enough to stick around and get your questions answered (obviously, judging from the silly things people have said so far) and now you are hostile about it so Im not going to waste my time with it. At least not now, maybe if my mood changes I will.

 

[muir]

I think that christianity is a broad church and that different people are connecting to it in different ways

Rather than get into a pointless argument over who is a 'christian' and who isn't perhaps peoples energies would be better spent looking back into the origins of it all?

Also with the discovery of various gnostic texts ie the nag hammadi texts and the dead sea scrolls the old perceptions of christianity are currently being revised anyway

Perhaps people will soon stop being so possessive of it and realise that it it is not a label or form of identity it is about people finding their personal connection with the divine

 

[JGirl]

Oh Hi there, I'm Joe Blow, Im a christian, I mean in name... like I dont believe anything in the bible, I dont believe any of it was real, I dont believe that Christ died for my sins or that he even existed, or that he rose from the dead, I just dont believe any of the actual doctrines of faith required to be a Christian in practice, but i'm a christian.

I guess that makes sense.

don't get your titties in such a knot over it. it's not your soul that will be damned for eternity so relax.