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compelling.
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@Rasmus @The Doctor I think I see our miscommunication. I am more of the mind that I didnt see it happen, yet I still believe. How can you say it was any way if you didnt see it? Saying 'jesus died and was rose from the dead as a body' and 'jesus died and was rose from the dead' illicits two different feelings for me. It's like having to put human qualities on God, you just cant do it. It must have been my mistake to think meaning literally meant as a body, since it was physical- I was talking about his spiritual body.
For some reason, I keep thinking humans translated the original manuscripts hundreds of times until now, and humans are now interpreting the bible. I keep wanting to allow for error on the humans part. The ideas and spiritual feelings I get, but the human part is fun to play with.
What exactly is the misunderstanding here? What do you think I am saying? saru, will reply to your post later tonight. thanksFeel free, just remember that in doing so you disregard most of what the Bible has to say on this matter.
I think you are your spiritual body, your soul, not your physical body. So when I picture someone being raised from the dead, their earthly body has little to do with it. What do you know about this that I dont?1 Corinthians 15: said:35But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
39All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. 42So also is the resurrection of the dead.
It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
Well I think it goes without saying that there are different "denominations" of atheists. There are atheists who have positive attitudes about religion, atheists who are neutral about religion, and atheists who just boil with anger anytime anything remotely religious gets mentioned. I agree that its hard to build a community around what you DON"T believe in. Atheists will begin coming together when they figure out what they DO believe in. It brings me back to the thing of having something greater than yourself. Even if Atheists don't have a deity, they can certainly believe in something greater than themselves. Or at least I think they have that potential. It might not be the nicest example, but when Atheists rallied around Marxist Leninism, you did start to see some striking thing in the arts -- Le Internationale comes to mind.I think one of the problems is that atheists don't really have a specific spiritual identity--it's extremely difficult to build a community/coherent sense of your spiritual self around a lack of beliefs.
I hate to say this, but there HAS been a movement in the art world to divorce art from meaning (especially religious meaning). And these existential works tend to be dissonant, ugly, and depressing. These various modern and post modern movements are very much connected to the influence of atheism. If the idea is to create inspirational works of beauty, then I'd say you guys are off to a rough start.I wouldn't even know how something would begin to qualify as 'atheist art'...
If a group of atheists broke through the stigma and gathered together to perform a 'religious' piece (changing the lyrics, of course), would it still be religious?
I agree, although IMHO the best science fiction is simply religion and morality very well disguised. My preference was always for such authors as Orson Scott Card. Babylon 5 always struck me as the most scientifically accurate of sci fi TV shows, but also the most mythic and religious. However, it is certainly a genre where at least atheists feel at home.A lot of true science fiction (the non-action kind) could be read as atheistic..
@The Doctor @Saru Inc
What exactly is the misunderstanding here? What do you think I am saying? saru, will reply to your post later tonight. thanks
I think you are your spiritual body, your soul, not your physical body. So when I picture someone being raised from the dead, their earthly body has little to do with it. What do you know about this that I dont?
See the problem with your spiritual body theory is that it contradicts the text, according to Luke 24, John 21, Mark 16, Matthew 28, acts 1. These all show a physical account of Christ not a spiritual. Along side of that, your delving into the Gnostic idea that physical things are bad, but the text didn't support that. the spiritual body doesn't hold up either, seeing as the text states that man is both physical and spiritual.
It's not that physical things are bad, yet they can't be the only things you live for. There needs to be a balance2 Corinthians said:16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
So not surprisingly the majority of the forum is rational, whereas a good piece of it believes in magical sky wizards and zombies... how do you people reconcile that fact with the fact that he is on equal standing with pixies, leprechauns, unicorns, dragons, Odin, Zeus, uhhh fuckin... tooth fairies... ummm Sauron and vampires? Why believe in 1 fictional character and then say the rest are not real? Don't use the stock answer "faith" that's another word for arrogant ignorance. Seriously though, why do you believe in such a thing and then discount others? What is this based on? IMO and IME people who tend to believe such things are just not able to rebel against the mind melding that they have have put on them since birth, which is kind of unfortunate. And for those who dont believe he rose from the dead, but still believe in Jesus and god why bother being religious at all if you are not going to follow the rules of the religion? If you dont believe in the religion at all, but still call yourself a christian, why? Is it just easier than being honest about your truth beliefs or non-beliefs? Its certainly been harder on me since I came out and told everyone I dont believe in God some time ago so I could understand that... but I have a feeling that people wouldnt be quite so terrified to admit to that on an internet forum.
There is life beyond this seen and temporal existence... I know that is the truth.
I am continually growing and learning more about our Father in Heaven.
Revelations keep on coming, faith keeps growing. He is beyond us, yet He loves us.
Your belief is rooted in what you can see, what you comprehend.
I'm here to tell you there is something beyond this, I'm a witness of it.
I've personally experienced something extraordinary. The unseen and eternal exists beyond the rational mind.
The unseen can not be proven with empirical evidence.
No need to let that trip you up though.
Ask Him to reveal Himself to you.
If you come to Him with a sincere heart...be persistent, keep knocking.
You must realize He isn't your personal genie, don't expect him to bring a stuffed animal to life...
In 1 breath you tell me not to arrogantly assume what God will or will not do for me as a Genie, then in the next you are telling me what you believe Gods will is... you don't find anything ridiculous about that?He desires to have communion with You.
It's not that physical things are bad, yet they can't be the only things you live for. There needs to be a balance
See the problem with your spiritual body theory is that it contradicts the text, according to Luke 24, John 21, Mark 16, Matthew 28, acts 1. These all show a physical account of Christ not a spiritual. Along side of that, your delving into the Gnostic idea that physical things are bad, but the text didn't support that. the spiritual body doesn't hold up either, seeing as the text states that man is both physical and spiritual.
"Spiritual body" seems to be contradictory, as 'spirit' is defined by immateriality, while 'body' is defined by materiality.@The Doctor @Saru Inc
What exactly is the misunderstanding here? What do you think I am saying? saru, will reply to your post later tonight. thanks
I think you are your spiritual body, your soul, not your physical body. So when I picture someone being raised from the dead, their earthly body has little to do with it. What do you know about this that I dont?
Having risen from the dead is not what defines a zombie: a zombie is something that rises from the dead, with less faculties than when alive: a zombie is more dead than alive. When something rises more alive than prior to death: with more/improved faculties that is resurrection.No I don't. I also hope he never does! I like the guy, but I wouldn't want to have to go through a Zombie-Christ Apocalypse
"Spiritual body" seems to be contradictory, as 'spirit' is defined by immateriality, while 'body' is defined by materiality.
However, as far as we can understand, the only things which can actively exist immaterially are identifiable by the ability to know (intellect) and the ability to choose/prefer/act (will). If we speak of a resurrected body being 'spiritualised' or 'subject to the spirit' - it means that the body is entirely subject to spiritual qualities: subject to the intellect and will.
In that earlier quote from St Paul, it seems that the dichotomy between spirit and flesh in us, is that often our intellect and will are subject to our bodies: in that we begin to think those things the body needs as being most important, and the things the body desires as being the most desirable: in other words our spirit is subject to our body. However, it seems that in a resurrected body the body is entirely subject to the spirit/soul.
Having risen from the dead is not what defines a zombie: a zombie is something that rises from the dead, with less faculties than when alive: a zombie is more dead than alive. When something rises more alive than prior to death: with more/improved faculties that is resurrection.