Does society still need a conception of sin?

Barnabas said:
I'm not entirely read up on it but I had a friend make a pretty convincing argument that God isn't omnipresent.
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I think people confuse omnipresent with interventionist in any and all circumstances all of the time.

Its more likely that God is omnipresent but universally responsive.
 
Lark said:
I think people confuse omnipresent with interventionist in any and all circumstances all of the time.

Its more likely that God is omnipresent but universally responsive.
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I think people tend to get it confused with pantheistic beliefs, "God is in the trees and in the sunset, God is everywhere." one of the points my friend makes about God not being omnipresent is that God himself mentions in the OT that there are places he can not be because of sin.
 
Barnabas said:
I think people tend to get it confused with pantheistic beliefs, "God is in the trees and in the sunset, God is everywhere." one of the points my friend makes about God not being omnipresent is that God himself mentions in the OT that there are places he can not be because of sin.
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Well that's a much better way of putting it actually. Thanks for this, I'm probably going to file this for future reference.
 
Some people do, some people don't.

Those who are responsible enough to follow their own moral code should not be socially bound to an external code of conduct.
But, that is not to say they are better than others. Everyone was once a child who needed boundaries set externally so there should be no shame.
It probably depends on where you're at in life. When information is hard to handle, set boundaries can help a person if they generally agree with them.
These same boundaries can become suffocating and oppressive when they feel confident to act autonomously.

Buuut...I do think that the essence of God, unconditional love, is what we are heading toward. I think this is what came to the forefront of Jesus' being, but that it is dormant in everyone. So, even though a moral code can be generated based on logic and emotion and be sufficient on earth, I am not sure it will cut the mustard on the other side of the curtain necessarily so it is a good idea to have an idea of being to aspire to and maintain the thought of when the laws of reality crumble around you as you leave this mortal vessel. If you can empathise with what Jesus went through, or come to know Jesus, as religions say, you will have some kind of reference point in the possibly disorienting early moments of the afterlife. Who knows what is going on on the other side? Jesus is simply the personification of the Christ energy, unconditional love. He is easier to relate to but you are unconsciously relating yourself to the Christ energy by believing in the story of his sacrifice which was, I believe, unavoidable but by no means necessary per say.
 
To me sin is an entirely religious thing. Right and wrong is a secular thing. Most western societies have privatized religion over the last couple of hundred years, making it a civil matter instead of a societal matter. I don't believe in sin, personally. My Jesus didn't preach us to be pious , but loving.
 
The concept of sin is grasped much more easily by those that better understand it.
 
Lark said:
Well that's a much better way of putting it actually. Thanks for this, I'm probably going to file this for future reference.
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That's what I thought, and like I said I'm not one hundred percent behind the idea. But I'm totally for pushing pantheism out of modern theology, also polytheism(I'm coming for you Catholics!)
 
Some people do not have a measurable goal for behavior or even what they want for dinner. How can they miss the mark when they aren't even shooting the arrow?
 
vandyke said:
To me sin is an entirely religious thing. Right and wrong is a secular thing. Most western societies have privatized religion over the last couple of hundred years, making it a civil matter instead of a societal matter. I don't believe in sin, personally. My Jesus didn't preach us to be pious , but loving.
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You have your very own Jesus? Did he also "so love the world.", or is He exclusively yours?
 
Barnabas said:
That's what I thought, and like I said I'm not one hundred percent behind the idea. But I'm totally for pushing pantheism out of modern theology, also polytheism(I'm coming for you Catholics!)
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Catholicism isnt pantheist nor is it polytheistic and to suggest that is the highest and most rank sectarian prejudice. You're entitled to your opinion but its erronious and unsupported by facts.
 
Lark said:
Catholicism isnt pantheist nor is it polytheistic and to suggest that is the highest and most rank sectarian prejudice. You're entitled to your opinion but its erronious and unsupported by facts.
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Most Christians aren't pantheist, but I've met enough who think in pantheistic terms that are less then comfortable and definitely not biblical. Secondly and I don't know if you caught onto this yet, I make jokes especially about things that if approached to seriously end in vehement arguments that neither enlighten or edify the individuals involved.


Finally Catholicism and polytheism, or should I say veneration of the saints. Let's start of with prayer, which is an integral part of worship being directed at saints, that's not biblical even in the slightest. The common counter argument being that Catholics don't actually pray to the saints, instead they ask for the saints to intercede on their behalf or to pray with them to God. The problem that arises is the fact that intercession and communion is the role and responsibility of the Holy Spirit, offering that to a saint is either disrespectful to God or elevating the importance of the saint sometime both.

Next on the list is the use of alters and idols in the veneration of saints. How many times did God admonish the Jews for making alters to other gods or bringing in idols from other countries. It's in the ten commandments, number two. No graven images of things of heaven or earth.

Finally Catholics have a pantheon of patron saints. St. Dunstan saint of the Blacksmiths, St. Catherine saint of artists, St. Florian saint of fisherman, ect and so on. That that's seems awfully similar to Greek pantheons whom had god's and demi-god's of the exact same people I listed. Let's not also forget the pantheistic god's of Europe who's worship was supposed to protect from natural disaster and to bless their daily lives.


So let's count the tally, prayer towards saints at alters with graven images for their blessing and protection. That sounds a lot like worship, and even if it's not expressed directed towards the saints it creates an uncomfortable level of familiarity for something that's no where to be found in the Bible and that has practices that are condemned in other portions. At worst it's christian flavored polytheism at best it's unnecessary practice that


I want to make it clear, I don't have anything against Catholicism, I still think the Catholic church is one of the greatest forces for good in the world, I admire the fact that after hundreds of years it functionally maintained a level of unity that protestant churches have never found possible. I Believe Catholics to be Christians and I'm certain as I can be that they have place in heaven waiting for them no better or worse then any other Christians. I don't even think this is that big of deal I know there are far more important issues going on in the church that should be dealt with. But I'm not going to ignore bad theology and tradition because of those things.








I going to apologize if i came off sounding harsh it's not intentional, it's two in the morning here and i should already be in bed and I might be a wee bit cranky.
 
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the said:
You have your very own Jesus? Did he also "so love the world.", or is He exclusively yours?
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I do, and I didn't even have to reach out and touch faith!

It was a way of saying that people interpret Jesus' actions and sayings in different way, and my Jesus didn't stigmatize the way most Christians choose to see it.

You're welcome to join him, but as John Lennon sang "I wonder if you can".
 
Barnabas said:
Most Christians aren't pantheist, but I've met enough who think in pantheistic terms that are less then comfortable and definitely not biblical. Secondly and I don't know if you caught onto this yet, I make jokes especially about things that if approached to seriously end in vehement arguments that neither enlighten or edify the individuals involved.


Finally Catholicism and polytheism, or should I say veneration of the saints. Let's start of with prayer, which is an integral part of worship being directed at saints, that's not biblical even in the slightest. The common counter argument being that Catholics don't actually pray to the saints, instead they ask for the saints to intercede on their behalf or to pray with them to God. The problem that arises is the fact that intercession and communion is the role and responsibility of the Holy Spirit, offering that to a saint is either disrespectful to God or elevating the importance of the saint sometime both.

Next on the list is the use of alters and idols in the veneration of saints. How many times did God admonish the Jews for making alters to other gods or bringing in idols from other countries. It's in the ten commandments, number two. No graven images of things of heaven or earth.

Finally Catholics have a pantheon of patron saints. St. Dunstan saint of the Blacksmiths, St. Catherine saint of artists, St. Florian saint of fisherman, ect and so on. That that's seems awfully similar to Greek pantheons whom had god's and demi-god's of the exact same people I listed. Let's not also forget the pantheistic god's of Europe who's worship was supposed to protect from natural disaster and to bless their daily lives.


So let's count the tally, prayer towards saints at alters with graven images for their blessing and protection. That sounds a lot like worship, and even if it's not expressed directed towards the saints it creates an uncomfortable level of familiarity for something that's no where to be found in the Bible and that has practices that are condemned in other portions. At worst it's christian flavored polytheism at best it's unnecessary practice that


I want to make it clear, I don't have anything against Catholicism, I still think the Catholic church is one of the greatest forces for good in the world, I admire the fact that after hundreds of years it functionally maintained a level of unity that protestant churches have never found possible. I Believe Catholics to be Christians and I'm certain as I can be that they have place in heaven waiting for them no better or worse then any other Christians. I don't even think this is that big of deal I know there are far more important issues going on in the church that should be dealt with. But I'm not going to ignore bad theology and tradition because of those things.

I going to apologize if i came off sounding harsh it's not intentional, it's two in the morning here and i should already be in bed and I might be a wee bit cranky.
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Meheheh when I was in a Catholic school for a bit, I basically told this same thing to the principal/head nun

I thought she was gonna explode!
 
Lark said:
I got to agree, I kind of see most of the conceptions of sin and recommendations to avoid them through virtue as being about perfectability of man and happiness by dealing with avoidable suffering, dispensing with it.

So the wholesale rejection of it all because of how its been conceived of from time to time is a bad idea.
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There's a lot in the Bible that's universally true, and some very wise shit.

Too bad it's basically been tossed out with the bath water.

At the same time I completely understand why, and even did so myself, for a while.
 
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