Does society still need a conception of sin?

[Lark]

That's not true at all.

It says "whoever believes in Him" should not perish but have everlasting life.

But whoever "does NOT believe in him is condemned".

Actually, if you read the rest of the passage, it's abundantly clear that not all will be saved. Some will most certainly be condemned.

Here it is:

John 3:16-21



Do you see that now?

Some are saved, and some are condemned. it really couldn't be any more plain.

You're missing the whole point of most of the old and new testament here. At the very, very least Matthew and James. Especially Matthew since it contains the written account of the final judgement as described by Jesus himself.

Anyway, you're logic is pretty circular and self-reinforcing, proposing alternate points of view and other ways of considering things will only serve to get you dug in and further entrenched. So I'm not going to argue with you, your positions is pretty clear and I dont accept it. There's reasons why, its nothing personal and its not for want of knowledge about the matter. I think you're mistaken, if some day you decide there could be another way of approaching the matter I'll be glad to discuss it with you.

 

[j654dgj7]

That's not true at all.

It says "whoever believes in Him" should not perish but have everlasting life.

But whoever "does NOT believe in him is condemned".

Actually, if you read the rest of the passage, it's abundantly clear that not all will be saved. Some will most certainly be condemned.

Here it is:

John 3:16-21



Do you see that now?

Some are saved, and some are condemned. it really couldn't be any more plain.

You're quoting the Bible to fit your own point of view. Using the Bible like that can be very dangerous. You can justify the following things:

- Human sacrifice ("Then God said: 'Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There you shall offer him up as a holocaust on a height that I will point out to you'." - Genesis 22:2)
- Violently oppressive slavery ("Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse." - 1 Peter 2:18)
- Male-domination in society ("Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord." - Ephesians 5:22)
- Witch hunts ("You shall not let a sorceress live." - Exodus 22:18)
- Harsh violence against children "Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." - Psalm 137:9)

And many many more. Think twice before using a few quotes to justify your stance, look at the big picture every once in a while.

 

[SovereignGrace]

For the record, I said:

That's not true at all.

It says "whoever believes in Him" should not perish but have everlasting life.

But whoever "does NOT believe in him is condemned".

Actually, if you read the rest of the passage, it's abundantly clear that not all will be saved. Some will most certainly be condemned.

Here it is:

John 3:16-21



Do you see that now?

Some are saved, and some are condemned. it really couldn't be any more plain.

To which, you responded:

You're quoting the Bible to fit your own point of view.

Now, If you disagree with my understanding of the text, then what do you think the text says?

I'm referring specifically to John 3:18 :

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If that doesn't mean that some are saved and some are condemned, then tell me, what does it mean?

And if the determining factor isn't faith in Christ, then what is the determining factor, according to this text?

How do you read it?

 

[j654dgj7]

Now, If you disagree with my understanding of the text, then what do you think the text says?

I'm referring specifically to John 3:18 :

Hey guy,

I'm not going to give you my interpretation. Not because I couldn't challenge the way you read, analyzed and interpreted the piece of scripture. I'm not going to give it to you, because you wouldn't consider it or even respect it. You would tell me that I am misguided and wrong. That's not a discussion and it gets boring. Since you wrote "for the record, I said", I figured I would bring my other examples of things you could conjure Biblical hate from again:

For the record, I said:

You can justify the following things:

- Human sacrifice ("Then God said: 'Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There you shall offer him up as a holocaust on a height that I will point out to you'." - Genesis 22:2)
- Violently oppressive slavery ("Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse." - 1 Peter 2:18)
- Male-domination in society ("Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord." - Ephesians 5:22)
- Witch hunts ("You shall not let a sorceress live." - Exodus 22:18)
- Harsh violence against children "Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock." - Psalm 137:9)

And many many more. Think twice before using a few quotes to justify your stance, look at the big picture every once in a while.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hey guy,

I'm not going to give you my interpretation. Not because I couldn't challenge the way you read, analyzed and interpreted the piece of scripture. I'm not going to give it to you, because you wouldn't consider it or even respect it. You would tell me that I am misguided and wrong. That's not a discussion and it gets boring. Since you wrote "for the record, I said", I figured I would bring my other examples of things you could conjure Biblical hate from again:

For the record, I said:

Well, yes, if you understand that text so say anything other than what it clearly says, I would certainly say you're wrong.

Some texts are more difficult to understand, but that one is clear as day. So, I think we both know what the truth is about it.


And as far as the other things you quoted, God has the RIGHT to command such things, and it's RIGHT if and when he commands them.

But only a FOOL would think God commanding Abram to sacrifice his son Issac is a GENERAL COMMAND for all parents to sacrifice their children, or even a general principle that it would be OK.

What you don't understand (or believe) is that God has the RIGHT, and that it's RIGHT when God commands such a thing.

But the fact is, God created all life, and sustains all life, so he has the right to give it and take it away. And by the same token, he has the right to SAVE whom he will, and condemn everyone else for their sins.

And he doesn't just have that right in THEORY, he exercises that right all the time.

Countless people are saved every day, and countless others wake up in Hell.

And again, if God does not graciously bring you under the preaching of the Gospel, and give you faith in his Son, you will wake up in Hell with those countless others, and you'll confess that he's God as you're tormented forever.

You'll either bow in this life, or you'll bow in Hell, and until you die there is still hope for you.

If you don't hear anything else I've said, Here THIS--Isaiah 55:6-7 :

Seek the Lord while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the Lord,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.

I'll address the rest of your points IF and WHEN I have time. But in the meantime, I suggest you seek the mercy of God.

 

[sprinkles]

You'll either bow in this life, or you'll bow in Hell, and until you die there is still hope for you.

If God knows all before you are born and will only save who he will save then there is no hope and you are lying here.


It seems like even you don't believe what you say if you speak of hope. Hope implies that there is a chance or an option. You can't speak of hope if things are predetermined. So one of the things you've been saying is a lie.

If Jesus died for those who will be saved and those who will be saved will believe THEN THERE IS NO IF. Which makes you an egoist liar that is wasting your time as well as everyone else's.

 

[SovereignGrace]

If God knows all before you are born and will only save who he will save then there is no hope and you are lying here.


It seems like even you don't believe what you say if you speak of hope. Hope implies that there is a chance or an option. You can't speak of hope if things are predetermined. So one of the things you've been saying is a lie.

If Jesus died for those who will be saved and those who will be saved will believe THEN THERE IS NO IF. Which makes you an egoist liar that is wasting your time as well as everyone else's.

You can make all the excuses you want, but I've clearly told you the way of salvation.

And there is no contradiction.

Maybe you're assuming that the Gospel is an offer, because most people think that it is.

But it's not an offer, it's a command. You are COMMANDED to repent and believe on Christ, and if you don't you are going to Hell.

Yes, it's true that God has already predetermined whether or not he will save you.

But if he does, it will be under the preaching of the Gospel. That's the means he uses to bring sinners to the knowledge of Christ.

Again, you can say what you want, and nitpick and debate--but the fact remains--There IS still hope for you yet.

God MAY still save you yet.

But if you die without God-given faith in Christ, you are absolutely going to Hell. End of story.

I suggest you heed the Scripture I quoted, and seek him while he may be found.

 

[Lark]

But if you die without God-given faith in Christ, you are absolutely going to Hell. End of story.

I suggest you heed the Scripture I quoted, and seek him while he may be found.

Yeah, Jesus didnt see it that way but whatever.

In fact Jesus didnt consider it important enough to write scriptures himself and spent most of his time correcting the version of that sort of thinking which existed in his day.

Election being based upon ethnicity/tribe rather than "God-given faith in Christ" and vindicated by scriptural legalism, its the same thing though. Think about it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yeah, Jesus didnt see it that way but whatever.

In fact Jesus didnt consider it important enough to write scriptures himself and spent most of his time correcting the version of that sort of thinking which existed in his day.

Election being based upon ethnicity/tribe rather than "God-given faith in Christ" and vindicated by scriptural legalism, its the same thing though. Think about it.

If God doesn't elect (choose) who he will and will not save, then who does?

Are you willing to ascribe that glory to the sinner?

And if it's not by God-given faith in Christ, then how are sinners saved?

What do you do with verses like this? :

Ephesians 1:4 - According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Romans 8:29 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Ephesians 2:8-10 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

1 Peter 1:2 - Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Acts 13:48 - And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

[Kanamori]

I feel like this should put the debate to rest: Anyone thinking we don't need the concept of sin or evil can go ahead and donate themselves to a sadist who's had a bad year (obviously not really encouraging this). They're still all over in the news.

 

[sprinkles]

You can make all the excuses you want, but I've clearly told you the way of salvation.

And there is no contradiction.

Maybe you're assuming that the Gospel is an offer, because most people think that it is.

But it's not an offer, it's a command. You are COMMANDED to repent and believe on Christ, and if you don't you are going to Hell.

Yes, it's true that God has already predetermined whether or not he will save you.

But if he does, it will be under the preaching of the Gospel. That's the means he uses to bring sinners to the knowledge of Christ.

Again, you can say what you want, and nitpick and debate--but the fact remains--There IS still hope for you yet.

God MAY still save you yet.

But if you die without God-given faith in Christ, you are absolutely going to Hell. End of story.

I suggest you heed the Scripture I quoted, and seek him while he may be found.

Contradiction. By your account God either must save me or must not. There is no may or uncertainty.

And how convenient for you that you get to "do God's work". Lets you feel like some kind of savior yourself. You're full of it and people know it, too.

I can tell you that when something is set there is no MAY about it. It happens. There's no point in me reading because that would be a CHOICE which cannot manipulate a predetermined fate.

As a player of gambling games, especially Riichi, I can tell you that when something is set there is no changing it. You cannot alter the draw of the tile no matter what choice you make. There's no 'maybes' or 'ifs' about it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Contradiction. By your account God either must save me or must not. There is no may or uncertainty.

And how convenient for you that you get to "do God's work". Lets you feel like some kind of savior yourself. You're full of it and people know it, too.

I can tell you that when something is set there is no MAY about it. It happens. There's no point in me reading because that would be a CHOICE which cannot manipulate a predetermined fate.

As a player of gambling games, especially Riichi, I can tell you that when something is set there is no changing it. You cannot alter the draw of the tile no matter what choice you make. There's no 'maybes' or 'ifs' about it.

No, you're not getting it.

GOD knows whether he is going to save you or not, But YOU and I don't know.

That's why I say there's still hope.

I've said it over and over again, and I'll say it again: If God does not save you, you will go to hell.

But since WE DON'T KNOW whether or not he will save you, there is still hope for you.

It's not a contradiction.

 

[sprinkles]

No, you're not getting it.

GOD knows whether he is going to save you or not, But YOU and I don't know.

That's why I say there's still hope.

I've said it over and over again, and I'll say it again: If God does not save you, you will go to hell.

But since WE DON'T KNOW whether or not he will save you, there is still hope for you.

It's not a contradiction.

Knowing is irrelevant. If you convince me that it may still happen and I'm one of the doomed ones then not only are we both ignorant but you will have misled me and given me a FALSE hope.

 

[Skarekrow]

No, you're not getting it.

GOD knows whether he is going to save you or not, But YOU and I don't know.

That's why I say there's still hope.

I've said it over and over again, and I'll say it again: If God does not save you, you will go to hell.

But since WE DON'T KNOW whether or not he will save you, there is still hope for you.

It's not a contradiction.

So we are either in the “saved” category or the “doomed to Hell” category....and all this is predetermined and known to God...then why should we even bother to act in a moral manner?

 

[Skarekrow]

[MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION]
BTW - Hell doesn’t exist...it never was in the Bible and doesn’t belong there.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Knowing is irrelevant. If you convince me that it may still happen and I'm one of the doomed ones then not only are we both ignorant but you will have misled me and given me a FALSE hope.

How can I be accused of giving anyone false hope?

I've said it over and over again: If God doesn't save you, you're going to Hell.

That's not very ambiguous, is it?

 

[SovereignGrace]

So we are either in the “saved” category or the “doomed to Hell” category....and all this is predetermined and known to God...then why should we even bother to act in a moral manner?

Who said anything about morality?

I'm talking about repentance and faith in Christ.

Furthermore, predestination is not an excuse. You won't be damned because God made you sin. You'll be damned because you're a sinner, and God simply chose not to save you.

 

[Skarekrow]

Who said anything about morality?

I'm talking about repentance and faith.

Furthermore, predestination is not an excuse. You won't be damned because God made you sin. You'll be damned because you sinned, and God simply chose not to save you.

You missed my point...
Why should we have faith and repent for predetermined sins if we are predestined to be saved or not.
Also...morality IS a factor...why should we bother to not create new sins if our salvation is fated?

 

[say what]

Who said anything about morality?

I'm talking about repentance and faith in Christ.

Furthermore, predestination is not an excuse. You won't be damned because God made you sin. You'll be damned because you're a sinner, and God simply chose not to save you.

So...by your logic, you might be destined for hell yourself, right?

 

[SovereignGrace]

So...by your logic, you might be destined for hell yourself, right?

No. I am not destined for Hell.

God gave me repentance and faith in his Son.

I have absolute confidence that Christ fully atoned for my sins and will preserve me in the faith until the end.