Does society still need a conception of sin?

[sprinkles]

There's a lot in the Bible that's universally true, and some very wise shit.

Too bad it's basically been tossed out with the bath water.

At the same time I completely understand why, and even did so myself, for a while.

Well I don't know.

To me, somebody who actually believes there's such a thing as sin would never bring this question to debate. IMO the idea of sin is a pretty hard line stance, and the possibility of even asking the question "Does society still need a conception of sin" seems incredibly lukewarm to me.

The question implies that the concept of sin at some point became optional. This is one of those "have you stopped beating your wife yet" questions. If you say "yes" it implies that you once had beat her already and if you say "no" it implies that you beat her and are continuing to do so.

To ask if society still needs a concept of sin implies to me that sin actually isn't a thing and has only been a practical illusion all this time.

 

[Rcs6r]

[video=youtube;CE8ooMBIyC8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE8ooMBIyC8[/video]

 

[digitalbum]

Well I don't know.

To me, somebody who actually believes there's such a thing as sin would never bring this question to debate. IMO the idea of sin is a pretty hard line stance, and the possibility of even asking the question "Does society still need a conception of sin" seems incredibly lukewarm to me.

The question implies that the concept of sin at some point became optional. This is one of those "have you stopped beating your wife yet" questions. If you say "yes" it implies that you once had beat her already and if you say "no" it implies that you beat her and are continuing to do so.

To ask if society still needs a concept of sin implies to me that sin actually isn't a thing and has only been a practical illusion all this time.

I think it pretty much is an illusion. But as animals that live mostly in illusion, we need good operating systems.

Sin doesn't exist in nature, yet somehow it exists in humans?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Society has all kinds of ideas about sin, but very few people are aware of the Biblical doctrine of sin.

In a nutshell, the Biblical doctrine of sin is that human beings, since the Fall of Adam, are nothing BUT sin. Their very NATURE is opposed to God, and they are utterly unable to change it, so that everything a sinner thinks and does is just sin.
And unless God graciously intervenes, and gives the sinner a NEW nature, that sinner is condemned under God's wrath against sin.
God demands perfection, not just the best you can do. Christ's perfect obedience is the standard.

And so, when God saves a sinner, he gives that sinner the perfection he requires. The perfect righteousness of Christ is IMPUTED (charged) to that sinner by Christ's work on the cross as his substitute, and it's IMPARTED to that sinner in the miracle of the "New Birth" (regeneration).

Jesus said: "You must be born again, or you cannot see the kingdom of God." You can't see it, nor enter into it, unless God LETS you in.You can't get there on your own merits or your own will. CHRIST HIMSELF is the way to be saved, and HE determines whether or not one will be saved.

Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but by me."

Therefore, if anyone is to be saved from God's wrath against sin, that person must acknowledge her/his sin, and repent of sin, and believe on Jesus Christ. His substitutionary death and atonement is sufficient to save a sinner, and all whom he died for WILL believe and be saved.

 

[just me]

Why do you use the term "God's wrath" so much when speaking of sin?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Why do you use the term "God's wrath" so much when speaking of sin?

Because that's what being "saved" is--being saved from God's WRATH against sin.

God HATES sin, and must punish sin.

That's why Christ died on the cross, to bear the iniquities of his people and suffer God's wrath, in order to save them from sin.
Romans 5:9:

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

His wrath against sin is why he flooded the Earth in the time of Noah.

And his wrath against sin his why, one day, he will burn up the whole Earth with fire.


Nothing in the Scriptures make sense at all if God's wrath against sin is not understood.


There are numerous Scriptures that refer to God's wrath against sin.

Here's just a small sample:

Romans 1:18

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.




John 3:36

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.




Romans 12:17-21

Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”


Luke 3:7

He said therefore to the crowds that came out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"



Revelation 19:11-21

Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.



Nahum 1:2-6

The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies. The Lord is slow to anger and great in power, and the Lord will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; he dries up all the rivers; Bashan and Carmel wither; the bloom of Lebanon withers. The mountains quake before him; the hills melt; the earth heaves before him, the world and all who dwell in it. Who can stand before his indignation? Who can endure the heat of his anger? His wrath is poured out like fire, and the rocks are broken into pieces by him.




Ezekiel 25:17

I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.”



Matthew 10:28

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.



Psalm 7:11

God is a righteous judge, and a God who feels indignation every day.


Luke 12:5

But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!



Deuteronomy 9:7

Remember and do not forget how you provoked the Lord your God to wrath in the wilderness. From the day you came out of the land of Egypt until you came to this place, you have been rebellious against the Lord.




Hebrews 10:26-31

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”




John 15:6

If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.


Matthew 5:29

If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.



Romans 5:18-19

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.






Mark 16:16

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.





Matthew 25:30
And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’










1 Thessalonians 5:2-9

For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober.

 

[ThisIsWhoIAm]

There must be right and wrong, or such a thing as "mistake" wouldn't exist, and utter chaos will be unleashed.

 

[j654dgj7]

God HATES sin, and must punish sin.

Have you met him? My God loves the sinner and has already decided to save him. Check out Lutheranism and Quakerism. A lot of Christians disagree with your stance. Peace out!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Have you met him? My God loves the sinner and has already decided to save him. Check out Lutheranism and Quakerism. A lot of Christians disagree with your stance. Peace out!

Yes, I know him personally.

He revealed himself to me in his Word, by the power of his Holy Spirit. And he hates sin with a perfect hatred. So much so that when his Son bore my sins on the cross, his Son bore the wrath I deserved, and therefore, I'll never bear the wrath of God.

If your God doesn't hate sin, then your God is a worthless idol, and you're lost, and you'll go to hell unless God saves you.

Ephesians 5:5-7 :

…For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Therefore do not be partakers with them;

 

[j654dgj7]

If your God doesn't hate sin, then your God is a worthless idol, and you're lost, and you'll go to hell unless God saves you.

As much as it is your right to say that, it is my right to tell you to go shove your God up your worthless ass, until you die of carbon monoxide poisoning brought on by your worthless asshole farting constantly in your trailer park home.

However, I'm not going to say that. I'm just going to inform you that you don't have a monopoly on how the Christian religion should be practiced or interpreted. Calling my interpretation of God worthless and myself lost is very arrogant for someone that is supposedly seeking spiritual and religious enlightenment. Luckily I don't believe what you believe and can just sit back and know to myself that we're all loved equally by God, and that even you will receive it's forgiveness.

 

[SovereignGrace]

As much as it is your right to say that, it is my right to tell you to go shove your God up your worthless ass, until you die of carbon monoxide poisoning brought on by your worthless asshole farting constantly in your trailer park home.

However, I'm not going to say that. I'm just going to inform you that you don't have a monopoly on how the Christian religion should be practiced or interpreted. Calling my interpretation of God worthless and myself lost is very arrogant for someone that is supposedly seeking spiritual and religious enlightenment. Luckily I don't believe what you believe and can just sit back and know to myself that we're all loved equally by God, and that even you will receive it's forgiveness.

But what do you base your ideas on? Certainly not the Scriptures.

I've already posted numerous verses that deal with God's wrath against sin, and explained repeatedly why that doctrine is so important.

Please do yourself a favor, and read the Scriptures for yourself. It's not wise to argue when you're ignorant of the subject.

There is no Gospel of salvation without God's wrath against the sinner. God's wrath is what he saves sinners from.

 

[j654dgj7]

But what do you base your ideas on? Certainly not the Scriptures.

Yes, the scriptures. I'm a Lutheran that grew up in a Lutheran country. It's an established very popular and big protestant domination in Northern Europe. I'm not making it up. Check out the five solae here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solae

I've already posted numerous verses that deal with God's wrath against sin, and explained repeatedly why that doctrine is so important.

I understand and it's a valid point that you're making. I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm just saying that my point of view, and a lot of Christians views, are very different from yours. There is a fundamental disagreement here that has been there fore close to 500 years now: is God righteous or merciful? I believe that God is merciful. I believe that he used to be righteous (sins) but he then sent his son to eliminate the need for sin and gave us eternal salvation from damnation and sins.

1 John 1:7-9 says that we are all in the light, in a fellowship with each other. We are all cleansed from sin. John 3:16 says that God loves us all. How can he love everybody if he doesn't love the sinner? I refer also, of course, to the Sermon on the Mount here.

Please do yourself a favor, and read the Scriptures for yourself. It's not wise to argue when you're ignorant of the subject.

I have read the Tanakh in entirety, the Holy Bible in its entirety, the Koran in its entirety, the Hindi, Buddhist, Hare Krishna and Sikh scriptures in entirety. I find nothing more interesting than spiritual and religious awareness. Some of the most interesting stuff that I have read has been commentary on scripture and reading about the different types of interpretations of the religions. I highly recommend you read up on different types of Christians, too.

There is no Gospel of salvation without God's wrath against the sinner. God's wrath is what he saves sinners from.

Couldn't he save sinners by making them good in Heaven?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes, the scriptures. I'm a Lutheran that grew up in a Lutheran country. It's an established very popular and big protestant domination in Northern Europe. I'm not making it up. Check out the five solae here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solae



I understand and it's a valid point that you're making. I'm not saying that you're wrong, I'm just saying that my point of view, and a lot of Christians views, are very different from yours. There is a fundamental disagreement here that has been there fore close to 500 years now: is God righteous or merciful? I believe that God is merciful. I believe that he used to be righteous (sins) but he then sent his son to eliminate the need for sin and gave us eternal salvation from damnation and sins.

1 John 1:7-9 says that we are all in the light, in a fellowship with each other. We are all cleansed from sin. John 3:16 says that God loves us all. How can he love everybody if he doesn't love the sinner? I refer also, of course, to the Sermon on the Mount here.



I have read the Tanakh in entirety, the Holy Bible in its entirety, the Koran in its entirety, the Hindi, Buddhist, Hare Krishna and Sikh scriptures in entirety. I find nothing more interesting than spiritual and religious awareness. Some of the most interesting stuff that I have read has been commentary on scripture and reading about the different types of interpretations of the religions. I highly recommend you read up on different types of Christians, too.



Couldn't he save sinners by making them good in Heaven?

Yes, I'm aware that there are many different false teachings. But what I'm concerned about is what the Bible says.

As far as God's judgement and mercy, those two things meet in the cross of Jesus Christ.

God cannot and will not forgive any sin without the shedding of Christ's precious blood.

And he did not die for everyone, because not all are saved. He can't fail. That's impossible for God.

And the Epistles are written specifically to believers, they don't apply to those who do not know Christ.

At this point, you should probably be asking more questions than arguing, since you really don't know what the Bible says.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Another helpful explanation of sin (from Pastor Don Fortner, link:http://www.donfortner.com/bulletin_articles/topical/INIQUITY TRANSGRESSION AND SIN.htm) :

INIQUITY, TRANSGRESSION, AND SIN


These three words are used throughout the Bible to describe the moral depravity of our race. God's judgment falls upon men because of iniquity, transgression, and sin.

INIQUITY IS THE PERVERSENESS OF MY RIGHTEOUSNESS. It is missing the mark, falling short of that which is required by the law of God. How far short do we fall? "We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" (Isa. 64:6). My best thoughts, best ambitions, best desires, and best deeds are so polluted with sin that in the sight of God they are as vile and obnoxious as discarded menstruous cloths.

TRANSGRESSION IS THE PERVERSENESS OF MY EVIL WORKS. It is the contemptuous disregard of God' s law, walking contrary to the law, and violating the law by willful rebellion. Every thought, word, and deed that is contrary to the law of God is transgression. It is the breaking of God' s law.

SIN IS THE PERVERSENESS OF MY BEING. This is what I am. This is the source of all transgression and iniquity. My heart by nature is a foul, polluted cesspool in which every manner of evil imaginable grows (Matt. 15:19). It is a garrison of enmity against God (Rom. 8:7). The evil I do is terrible; but the evil that I am is worse by far. I hate what I do; but I hate what I am more.

If we would obtain mercy from God, WE MUST CONFESS OUR SIN (Prov. 28:13; I John 1:9). This is more, than merely saying, with Judas, "I have sinned." It is a heartfelt acknowledgement of our guilt and depravity. We must acknowledge the evil of our righteousness, the evil of our wickedness, and the evil of our nature, so that we take sides with God against ourselves (Ps. 51:1-5).

I rejoice to know and to declare to you that THROUGH THE MERITS OF CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS AND SHED BLOOD GOD IS FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE INIQUITY, TRANSGRESSION, AND SIN (Ex. 33:6-7; I John 1:9). This is the good news and glad tidings of the gospel. If we acknowledge and confess our sin God will forgive our sin. The blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, cleanses us from all sin.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Couldn't he save sinners by making them good in Heaven?

No. Not at all.

They must come to Christ in this life.

Hebrews 9:27-28 :

And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.

To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

 

[just me]

It is I that condemneth, and it is I that showeth mercy. Romans 9:5, For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Once I have seen Christ, it is hard for me to dwell on wrath.

 

[j654dgj7]

Yes, I'm aware that there are many different false teachings. But what I'm concerned about is what the Bible says.

I'm not used to dealing with extreme ignorance, it's a precious gift when I get a moron this size up close.

Did it feel good writing off the most commonly used Christian phrase there? John 3:16? Sermon on the Mount? Did it feel good to say that those are all false teachings?

As far as God's judgement and mercy, those two things meet in the cross of Jesus Christ.

Ignorance level rising dramatically. You're too stupid for me to explain what it means, apparently. If you want to prove me wrong, go visit the five solae wikipedia link that I tried to get you to look at when I gave a shit about you or what you said.

Side note for those who haven't read this whole discussion: This guy told me that I was going to Hell in his first reply to me. I've been civil this far. I can't not point out how dumb and ignorant on the subject he is, and preaches about, any longer.

God cannot and will not forgive any sin without the shedding of Christ's precious blood.

Oh man, put your boner away already. I get it, Jesus dying turns you on, put it away!

And he did not die for everyone, because not all are saved. He can't fail. That's impossible for God.

The contradictions here must make non-believers very happy.

Of course Jesus is the savior of everyone and you would have known that if you had bothered to read the new testament. John 4:42 and 4:14 says it explicitly.

And the Epistles are written specifically to believers, they don't apply to those who do not know Christ.

Christianity is not a closed club. It's just yet another thing that you've invented in your (very closed and very tiny) mind.

At this point, you should probably be asking more questions than arguing, since you really don't know what the Bible says.

A used condom would give me more useful information about Christian scriptures than you could at this point. Go open your fucking mind and stop being so judgmental about other ways of living according to scripture.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm not used to dealing with extreme ignorance, it's a precious gift when I get a moron this size up close.

Did it feel good writing off the most commonly used Christian phrase there? John 3:16? Sermon on the Mount? Did it feel good to say that those are all false teachings?



Ignorance level rising dramatically. You're too stupid for me to explain what it means, apparently. If you want to prove me wrong, go visit the five solae wikipedia link that I tried to get you to look at when I gave a shit about you or what you said.

Side note for those who haven't read this whole discussion: This guy told me that I was going to Hell in his first reply to me. I've been civil this far. I can't not point out how dumb and ignorant on the subject he is, and preaches about, any longer.



Oh man, put your boner away already. I get it, Jesus dying turns you on, put it away!



The contradictions here must make non-believers very happy.

Of course Jesus is the savior of everyone and you would have known that if you had bothered to read the new testament. John 4:42 and 4:14 says it explicitly.



Christianity is not a closed club. It's just yet another thing that you've invented in your (very closed and very tiny) mind.



A used condom would give me more useful information about Christian scriptures than you could at this point. Go open your fucking mind and stop being so judgmental about other ways of living according to scripture.

Yes, if God doesn't save you, you will go to Hell.

That's not a personal attack, that's a doctrinal statement. And it applies to everyone equally.

 

[SovereignGrace]

John 3:16 says that God loves us all.

That's not true at all.

It says "whoever believes in Him" should not perish but have everlasting life.

But whoever "does NOT believe in him is condemned".

Actually, if you read the rest of the passage, it's abundantly clear that not all will be saved. Some will most certainly be condemned.

Here it is:

John 3:16-21

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Do you see that now?

Some are saved, and some are condemned. it really couldn't be any more plain.

 

[Lark]

Yes, I know him personally.

He revealed himself to me in his Word, by the power of his Holy Spirit. And he hates sin with a perfect hatred. So much so that when his Son bore my sins on the cross, his Son bore the wrath I deserved, and therefore, I'll never bear the wrath of God.

If your God doesn't hate sin, then your God is a worthless idol, and you're lost, and you'll go to hell unless God saves you.

Ephesians 5:5-7 :

I'd be real careful about who you refer to as a worthless idol there.