Economic Meltdown 2018

Deleted member 16771 said:
I did some work on Renaissance economics, specifically Florentine, but I'm a theoretical medievalist of religious movements really.
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do you see any correlation between then and today? These things happen in cycles and it seems to happen relatively the same way every time... during the Renaissance was there any mention of depreciation?
 
Emanuel Goldstein said:
do you see any correlation between then and today? These things happen in cycles and it seems to happen relatively the same way every time... during the Renaissance was there any mention of depreciation?
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I'll have to read the thread.

Have you read Thomas Pikketty's Capital in the Twenty First Century?

He came up with some equations to account for these 'waves' to do with private/public capital ratios - there's a certain logic to it that makes the waves inevitable.

Yes there was depreciation, but the Renaissance coincided with the growth in the power of Kings and central government bureaucracy (centralisation of states around the time of the 'New Monarchs'), so that debasement was counteracted by the issuance of New, High confidence currencies. The hegemony of the Spanish and New World rare metals plunder had a lot to do with it.

In fact, a lot of the economic growth of the Renaissance is to do with the combination of stable currencies and banks willing to issue it (esp. Florentine) in the form of debt, vastly multiplying the level of liquidity in the system by several magnitudes.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
I'll have to read the thread.

Have you read Thomas Pikketty's Capital in the Twenty First Century?

He came up with some equations to account for these 'waves' to do with private/public capital ratios - there's a certain logic to it that makes the waves inevitable.

Yes there was depreciation, but the Renaissance coincided with the growth in the power of Kings and central government bureaucracy (centralisation of states around the time of the 'New Monarchs'), so that debasement was counteracted by the issuance of New, High confidence currencies. The hegemony of the Spanish and New World rare metals plunder had a lot to do with it.

In fact, a lot of the economic growth of the Renaissance is to do with the combination of stable currencies and banks willing to issue it (esp. Florentine) in the form of debt, vastly multiplying the level of liquidity in the system by several magnitudes.
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My knowledge is more localized to online research of history directed at Roman depreciation, the 1929 stock market crash the preceeding "roaring twenties" and the following "dirty 30's" depression era, which was quickly followed by world war 2 in 1939. I think we are following a similar pattern today and I was wondering if the renaissance wars were precipitated by money issues similar to what we are seeing today... including debasement of money etc etc.

I did read an renaissance article which stated loosely that the debasement of silver was specifically done in order to prop up the price of gold during that time. However, I could have read it wrong...
 
Emanuel Goldstein said:
My knowledge is more localized to online research of history directed at Roman depreciation, the 1929 stock market crash the preceeding "roaring twenties" and the following "dirty 30's" depression era, which was quickly followed by world war 2 in 1939. I think we are following a similar pattern today and I was wondering if the renaissance wars were precipitated by money issues similar to what we are seeing today... including debasement of money etc etc.

I did read an renaissance article which stated loosely that the debasement of silver was specifically done in order to prop up the price of gold during that time. However, I could have read it wrong...
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All useful research.

I'll have to disagree, the wars of the Early Modern Period were mostly about hegemonic competition, either between states or between religious authorities, between Kings and their parliaments, &c.

Tje availability of easy debt just made wars so much easier to fight.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
All useful research.

I'll have to disagree, the wars of the Early Modern Period were mostly about hegemonic competition, either between states or between religious authorities, between Kings and their parliaments, &c.

Tje availability of easy debt just made wars so much easier to fight.
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Sorry I should have said the debasement of silver was used to contribute to the stability of gold.

Of course wars had to be funded and put countries in debt to the banks from which they borrowed... which is why medici banks were such a powerful entity during those times... The series DeVinci's demons (although probably not historically accurate) did suggest that a lot of power and intrigue lie with the banks and with whom they would side during the wars... I could be mistaken though...
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
All useful research.

I'll have to disagree, the wars of the Early Modern Period were mostly about hegemonic competition, either between states or between religious authorities, between Kings and their parliaments, &c.

Tje availability of easy debt just made wars so much easier to fight.
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I would also say that the reason you say that is because research on the subject of money/war relation is not been well researched?

However, the art and culture renaissance was spurred by an economic depression... so the 20's high, 30's low then war model might may have happened during the renaissance as well... we just can't see it yet... I know I can see the same thing happening today,.. and let's be realistic, empires rise and empires fall... arguably at a faster rate in the modern day...
 
Emanuel Goldstein said:
I would also say that the reason you say that is because research on the subject of money/war relation is not been well researched?

However, the art and culture renaissance was spurred by an economic depression... so the 20's high, 30's low then war model might may have happened during the renaissance as well... we just can't see it yet... I know I can see the same thing happening today,.. and let's be realistic, empires rise and empires fall... arguably at a faster rate in the modern day...
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I like your theoretical thinking, in terms of 'cycles', &c. We need to do this kind of speculation in order to uncover true patterns and processes.

I approve.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
I'm not sure about that, I know of a least one economic historian who looked at it (Gold-somebody, ironically, can't quite remember his name).
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s'ok... I don't consider specific names important so much as the subject matter... I didn't say it wasn't researched at all... I said it wasn't well researched... as far as i've seen they are still having trouble untangling that period of history (monetarily speaking) and typically during difficult times... financial "cheating" is typically concealed. I don't envy the historians their job in that area...
 
Emanuel Goldstein said:
s'ok... I don't consider specific names important so much as the subject matter... I didn't say it wasn't researched at all... I said it wasn't well researched... as far as i've seen they are still having trouble untangling that period of history (monetarily speaking) and typically during difficult times... financial "cheating" is typically concealed. I don't envy the historians their job in that area...
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You're right, it's complicated but there are a lot of records. The Italian bankers were fastidious about keeping records and all kinds of reflections in diaries and things.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
You're right, it's complicated but there are a lot of records. The Italian bankers were fastidious about keeping records and all kinds of reflections in diaries and things.
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Mark Twain is reputed to have said "History does not repeat itself, but it often rhymes"

There are a lot of things happening which can be correlated to the cycles of the past. difference is it's on a much larger scale with the size of derivative markets and the inter-connectedness of all the banks... but you can look a little further and see that if the stock market crashes super low and someone decides to buy up Microsoft, beyond 50% that means they will own all of your associated data. If the FED is doing the buying that means this mysterious entity which is private, but sorta attached to the government somehow... will own your data should that kinda thing happen.... and since the FED has a license to print money... it could happen...

@noisebloom care to join the discussion?
 
Something Chomsky said really stuck with me.

US debt is not real debt, because the whole world system is based upon the US economy and its institutions. It can redefine debt anytime it wants.
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
Something Chomsky said really stuck with me.

US debt is not real debt, because the whole world system is based upon the US economy and its institutions. It can redefine debt anytime it wants.
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yes ... that is true ... right up until there is alternative... which there is now... it is a slow time evolution... but it will happen (is happening). At this point it is inevitable...

It's kinda like this... dollars based on OPEC oil (deal with OPEC to protect it in order to sell oil in US dollars only) this means all countries need US dollars to purchase oil from OPEC. This is changing on several levels... OPEC is getting cranky with the US, but the big kicker is that China has a Gold/Yuan/oil denominated currency... hence the alternative...
 
@Emanuel Goldstein

yes I would recommend people look into the prices of metals the last few years and at a vendor such as APMEX if interested in procuring some. Definitely diversify if you have the option.

**And looking at silver's price it would be a good time to buy some right now since it can spike to above $30 when things get weird economically.
 
jkxx said:
@Emanuel Goldstein

yes I would recommend people look into the prices of metals the last few years and at a vendor such as APMEX if interested in procuring some. Definitely diversify if you have the option.

**And looking at silver's price it would be a good time to buy some right now since it can spike to above $30 when things get weird economically.
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I don't like doing things online, I would suggest going to someplace local... but that's just me...

Yeah.... above $30 ... last time it was $50 at it's height... and it might go even higher then that (by 2 or 3 times at least) if not by an order of magnitude ...

J.P. Morgan is hording a metric buttload of physical silver, all they have to do is let the price go up and they will make approx. $800,000,000 for ever dollar that silver goes up.
 
Emanuel Goldstein said:
@ruji @Skarekrow

Was wondering if you guys wanted to weigh in on this subject...?
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I’ll have to go back and catch up...do I think it’s melting down is that what this thread is about?
Well Trump is certainly trying it seems.
I leave it at that until I can properly read up on the topics everyone is discussing.
I’ll get back to you!
 
Skarekrow said:
I’ll have to go back and catch up...do I think it’s melting down is that what this thread is about?
Well Trump is certainly trying it seems.
I leave it at that until I can properly read up on the topics everyone is discussing.
I’ll get back to you!
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These things happen in cycles regardless of what happens in the whitehouse.... the math makes inevitable along with history. This was never going to end any other way...
 
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