Emperical Faith in God

Oh religion... how you've made me think over the years. I don't mean any attacks by this, I'm just thinking to myself and evaluating for myself. I'm starting to feel like I'm saying this for the billionth time, but it's still in the "open case" file so I have to think about it.

I've always had reservations about notions of divine intervention. I've never seen it. Of course, I've seen things happen, but there always seems to be a normal reason for it. Much like how if I see a curtain suddenly drift back and forth for a few seconds I'll think "Hmmm... there must be a draft in here that I can't feel" instead of figuring that it's proof that ghosts exist. If I was accidentally tipping over to fall off of a cliff and a miraculous force stopped me mid-tipping and pushed me back upright, or if I ran on empty in my car for 150 miles when I happened to run out of fuel in the middle of nowhere... then I might believe more in divine intervention. I haven't ever seen anything that I would describe as miraculous though. Those things I have seen that turned out great are compounded by many other things that turned out just awful.

It would seem to me that much of the religious community says "See! There's proof that God exists!" whenever anything really good happens, and "See! There's proof that the devil exists!" whenever anything really bad happens. Self-reinforcement.

A few questions have always bothered me:

If God does exist - How could he/she/it judge me as awful for following my own intuition and what I thought was right, when it's the thing that would have given me the mind in the first place? I imagine that would be like me building a spoon and then getting mad at it for not doing what I wanted, which might have been cutting a steak, and calling it evil. I made it that way, how can I be angry with what it does? And if I DO determine that the spoon is evil, isn't it based on my subjective choice that a knife is "more good" than a spoon?

Along those same lines, I'd have to imagine that God, provided he/she/it does exist, would be operating on such a higher, more universal wavelength in terms of thought that it wouldn't perceive good or evil acts. Much like if you gave a toy to two siblings for them to share and they were to get into a punching match over it and then they both were to come up to you and ask which one was good or evil - you might not view either side as evil, but just say "It's a shame you fight so much. That's not what it's all about."

If God exists, then why does he hide? I know the "Don't tempt God" thing, but why? Why shouldn't God give obvious truth to his existence? I am open to seeing evidence, but I don't see it.

If I were to ponder on what God or existence really is and where all this stuff came from based on what I see around me and trying to draw conclusions from it, I could see evidence of this:

This world exists, as do I, and from what I can tell others exist too. The planet seems to have started as a big rock in space made up of a bunch of different materials, much like a lot of other planets are today. This one, however, started swirling around and because of its conditions, over time little things started to move around. Much like how if you have a string of gears together and turn one, the others begin to turn too - but if a few of them are missing or disconnected then only the first few gears turn. This planet just happened to be one where a lot of gears moved about, and eventually along that string of gears a gear called "bacteria" and then "plants" and then "fish" and then "animals" and such started turning. The other planets are missing a few gears though, or else we might see life on them too! Alan Watts would say that as an apple tree produces apples, the planet produces life simply because that's the way it is.

Of course, that's very mechanical. That would be fine if we weren't conscious - if we were similar to planets swirling around one another. I'm inclined to agree with [MENTION=2259]Kmal[/MENTION] on this one, that the universe is composed of systems of varying degrees of scales. We just happen to be a system that has become conscious. How strange!

Looking at matter, scientists have looked down at it and found the elements, then found atoms that compose those elements - protons, electrons, neutrons. Then they found quarks that make up each of those. If I had to extrapolate this, I'd imagine that there's an underlying element making all of this up. I suppose I'd call it spirit, for lack of a better term. All would be spirit, primarily, just different organizations of it. One form would be wood, another sand, another water. The energy would react with itself and do curious things like what we call gravity, and what we call consciousness. I'd say that we are one of the many manifestations of the universe. As such, there isn't really good or evil because we're all just different manifestations of the same thing.

If a boulder happened to fall off of a cliff and break into a pile of pebbles on the ground below and mysteriously become conscious, would the ones at the bottom have any objective validity to segregating themselves as "surfacers" for the pebbles on top of the pile and "underers" for the pebbles below and trying to decide which was better or worse? They're all fundamentally from the same stupid rock, they just don't realize it.

It so happened that we like life - that's because the initial ones of us that enjoyed living and procreating and were good at it tended to perpetuate that system. The ones who thought it would be more of a rush to jump off of a cliff and didn't see a need to continue living (not out of hate, but just out of indifference to the state of being alive vs the state of being dead) jumped off of cliffs and now they're not here anymore because their system didn't tend to be self-perpetuating. A stream continues one way. If a few drops splash to the side they are absorbed by the ground. It is not bad that the drops did not form a new stream, or that the stream didn't change course to follow the drops, or that the drops aren't part of the stream anymore. It's just what happened.

There is no god, what happens after death is that our current form stops and consciousness goes wherever it will - except our brains aren't there to recall memories. It's happened before, and it will always happen. This isn't bad, but we have an aversion to it because our mechanical disposition finds change to be a bad thing.

I think it would wrap up existence quite nicely if nothing existed, but nothing separated itself out into what exists today. As an analogy there can be an instance of "no charge" of electricity on something, and everything is cool and neutral. However, if that gets separated out to a positive charge and a negative charge: the whole system can be neutral overall, but magical things can happen involving the opposite charges that have separated themselves out. The big bang would have been a separation of the void into energy, spirit, consciousness... and whatever its other pole is. That's just a personal curiosity though. I wouldn't aspouse that as anything more than just mindfood. I think it would be funny if it turned out that way though.

Whew!
 
This world exists, as do I, and from what I can tell others exist too. The planet seems to have started as a big rock in space made up of a bunch of different materials, much like a lot of other planets are today. This one, however, started swirling around and because of its conditions, over time little things started to move around. Much like how if you have a string of gears together and turn one, the others begin to turn too - but if a few of them are missing or disconnected then only the first few gears turn. This planet just happened to be one where a lot of gears moved about, and eventually along that string of gears a gear called "bacteria" and then "plants" and then "fish" and then "animals" and such started turning. The other planets are missing a few gears though, or else we might see life on them too! Alan Watts would say that as an apple tree produces apples, the planet produces life simply because that's the way it is.

When you see a tall building, would you say it is there because it is the way it is? It just comes up by itself from the soil?
When you see a beautiful garden like this, would you say the plants and flowers just happen to grow like that by itself because it is the way it is?
 
If one is not in the stream of understanding, how can one judge such a thing?

A. There are multiple "streams" of understanding

B. Religion and Jesus happened. There is no movement that is implied by "stream". Nothing new to obtain apart from the truth of what happened. Either what you believe is true or false. No learning curve. Anything new that is discovered in Christianity has already been written.

For one that has no understanding of God to say there is no divine intervention is almost like a stagnant statement.

*sigh* What proof is there of divine intervention? I'm sure many of the "bad" guys thought god was on their side when they lost. What you might interpret as God trying to help good may seem like God inherently screwed over someone who didn't deserve it.

And I do have an understand of a higher being that is not described by a simple collection of stories.

And what do you mean by a stagnant statement? It doesn't move the conversation forward? Well yeah, because facts like that are meant to end conversations like this. Sorry for sticking to what I know for sure: that which has stood the test of science.

And I also want to make another point to 99.9% of the religious right. Evolution and God do not contradict each other nor are scientists, liberals, gay people, feminists, humanists, social welfare promoters or romanticists out for your soul in "the biggest war of all time".
 
When you see a tall building, would you say it is there because it is the way it is? It just comes up by itself from the soil?
When you see a beautiful garden like this, would you say the plants and flowers just happen to grow like that by itself because it is the way it is?

Is this supposed to be an argument for God? I don't want to be a dick but *facepalm*.

No, the building was built by humans. The garden was also planted by humans. Flowering plants came ashore a few hundred million years ago.
 
Is this supposed to be an argument for God? I don't want to be a dick but *facepalm*.

No, the building was built by humans. The garden was also planted by humans. Flowering plants came ashore a few hundred million years ago.

Bill O'Reilly says;
"You can't explain that!"

fox-news-bill-o-reilly.jpg
 
When you see a tall building, would you say it is there because it is the way it is? It just comes up by itself from the soil?
When you see a beautiful garden like this, would you say the plants and flowers just happen to grow like that by itself because it is the way it is?

I would say that someone most likely made them, because I've seen things that people have made. That doesn't so much translate to the earth though. I've never seen an earth being made. I might assume that aliens made us all in that case. Then who made the aliens, you might ask? Well... that gets to another question. If God exists and made all of this, then who made God? If the answer is that God is eternal, couldn't I just reply that the cosmos is eternal, from which all this sprouted as a tendency?
 
True christianity is like being assigned to take the best care of yourself,family, neighbors, plants, animals and cause the least harm. I've also seen documentaries of scientists are becoming more spiritual as they examine their study areas and find such fascinating beautiful complexity and organization. A real christian has no problem with science. God was a creative explorer too.

Sure a Christian can LIKE science. Be interested by science- intrigued by the natural world.

But.

If you apply the scientific method to religion, scriptures, spiritual experiences, then they do not hold up to the scrutiny. Adherents then say, well you can't put God in the same type of analysis implemented by the scientific method.

Conversely, if you apply the same methods of religions or religious adherents use to science it would be a joke. Could you imagine a scientist saying
"I just get the feeling that this will cure aids."
"How do you know? What is your evidence?"
"Well, I heard this voice in my head, which could not have been me, tell me that this will work. I feel a sense of peace about it. I know in my spirit it is true"
(You ask me how I know he livessssss...He livessss within my heart)
"Okay, but where is your evidence? Is it falsifiable or verifiable in any way?"
"You just have to get in the right spirit to know...you must have faith."

No, science and faith are not compatible if you apply the same methods. If you say that you cannot apply the same methods and religion is in a different category, then why are you arguing that they can work together, that there is no discrepancy? Science without the scientific method is not science.
 
When you see a tall building, would you say it is there because it is the way it is? It just comes up by itself from the soil?
When you see a beautiful garden like this, would you say the plants and flowers just happen to grow like that by itself because it is the way it is?


Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?
Douglas Adams


 
Sure a Christian can LIKE science. Be interested by science- intrigued by the natural world.

But.

If you apply the scientific method to religion, scriptures, spiritual experiences, then they do not hold up to the scrutiny. Adherents then say, well you can't put God in the same type of analysis implemented by the scientific method.

Conversely, if you apply the same methods of religions or religious adherents use to science it would be a joke. Could you imagine a scientist saying
"I just get the feeling that this will cure aids."
"How do you know? What is your evidence?"
"Well, I heard this voice in my head, which could not have been me, tell me that this will work. I feel a sense of peace about it. I know in my spirit it is true"
(You ask me how I know he livessssss...He livessss within my heart)
"Okay, but where is your evidence? Is it falsifiable or verifiable in any way?"
"You just have to get in the right spirit to know...you must have faith."

No, science and faith are not compatible if you apply the same methods. If you say that you cannot apply the same methods and religion is in a different category, then why are you arguing that they can work together, that there is no discrepancy? Science without the scientific method is not science.

Yes, the number one thing that I can't stand seeing being used in the debate 'for' or 'against' God is science.
God (hypothetical) is not a natural being, hes above nature. Therefore science cannot be used as a means of disproving or proving. We have to agree that science has its limitations despite what some people think.
http://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12

For the Christian, the best way to look at science is to see it as a set of blueprints that has been left for us to discover and learn from. Everyone is left with the challenge of trying to figure out how those blueprints came to be. A Christian accepts that like a standard set of blueprints they were created and planned. However, because God is eternal and not a creation, there are no blueprints to be found of God as a being. That's why science can't used as a case 'for' or 'against', because there's nothing really there to work with. Now you can say "thats because he doesn't exist" or you can say "thats because he's the creator and not the created". That's what faith is and where it comes into play. Anyone who say's that you are retarded to have faith in God because there is no 'scientific proof' is right but is also wrong to think he or she can also use it as a means to disprove, and are either ignorant or arrogant for thinking so. Folks, it comes down to personal opinion above anything else.

Belief in God is spiritual, its personal. Its an individual journey and as a Christian I'm glad that God made it that way. Science is a tool thats being misused. In reality it doesn't need to conflict, in fact it doesn't even need to be involved. If science is consistent in proving that something in the bible is not right, then for the Christian that means that our interpretation of the scripture is incorrect. It happens, but think of it as God's way of correcting and humbling us. I love science, its a wonderful tool and a fantastic source of knowledge.

I have belief in God because I choose to believe that I was created, that everything is planned and nothing is what it seems to be. Life is simply amazing. I don't believe in God through science, but through what Jesus Christ did.

John 20:29

Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
 
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This is what happens when you try to prove God through science.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4yBvvGi_2A"]YouTube - ‪Atheist Nightmare‬‏[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZFG5PKw504&feature=related"]YouTube - ‪Peanut Butter, The Atheist's Nightmare!‬‏[/ame]

jesus-facepalm-facepalm-jesus-epic-demotivational-poster-1218659828.jpg
 
This is what happens when you try to prove God through science.
<snipped videos and picture for bandwidth>

*facepalm* I think a part of me physically cringed when I watched the banana video. Also, have you tried to open a banana from the bottom? MUCH easier than using the top "pull tab" thing.

As I said above, there's a big problem with trying to argue for or against the existence of the supernatural is that people. With the right prose and knowledge, anyone can twist any known fact to support or contradict the existence of a creator.
 
A. There are multiple "streams" of understanding

B. Religion and Jesus happened. There is no movement that is implied by "stream". Nothing new to obtain apart from the truth of what happened. Either what you believe is true or false. No learning curve. Anything new that is discovered in Christianity has already been written.



*sigh* What proof is there of divine intervention? I'm sure many of the "bad" guys thought god was on their side when they lost. What you might interpret as God trying to help good may seem like God inherently screwed over someone who didn't deserve it.

And I do have an understand of a higher being that is not described by a simple collection of stories.

And what do you mean by a stagnant statement? It doesn't move the conversation forward? Well yeah, because facts like that are meant to end conversations like this. Sorry for sticking to what I know for sure: that which has stood the test of science.

And I also want to make another point to 99.9% of the religious right. Evolution and God do not contradict each other nor are scientists, liberals, gay people, feminists, humanists, social welfare promoters or romanticists out for your soul in "the biggest war of all time".

I may have been misunderstood. I agree there are many streams of understanding. I was referring to specific subjects. If I have little to no understanding of a specific subject because I have not given it the time necessary to understand(better), then I am at the level of ignorance. If I have devoted 40 years of time with a specific subject, I have much more understanding of that said subject. I think it unfair for one that has given a subject little time and effort to argue it with someone that has devoted his life learning it.

I see life in the subject at hand; hence, the stream of life moving about. I see a stagnant pool of water with no movement in a mindset that has no part trying to understand with their life something. A stagnant business, for example, is one that is not growing in that said field. Please do not take the statement as negative. I thought it a good analogy and meant no harm.

I also do not believe anything new that is discovered in religion has necessarily already been written. I believe we see things somewhat opaquely, and that opacity of our seeing may certainly be cleared up with much effort and time. I do believe we will see things clearly one day.

Those that believe need no proof, and proof will not allow a nonbeliever to see. I do not wish to end a conversation like this at all, nor do I seek to silence anyone. I am glad all those folk are not after my soul, as it is not theirs for the taking.

All in all, I think it unwise to challenge the religious understanding of one that has spent a lifetime of devotion, especially by someone that hasn't a clue what they are all about. "Ask and ye shall receive; seek and ye shall find; knock and the door will be opened." There is much wisdom in this. It doesn't fall out of a tree like an apple.
I hope this explains my thoughts better.
 
*facepalm* I think a part of me physically cringed when I watched the banana video. Also, have you tried to open a banana from the bottom? MUCH easier than using the top "pull tab" thing.

I know, Ray comfort has put me off banana's for good, thanks to his ignorance. I call him the 'Christian nightmare' and 'Atheist troll food'. Not to mention that the modern Banana was a Plantain mutation that was cultivated. If anything, it could be used as proof for evolution, which it is. I'm not sure why so many Christians are adamant in proving that there is no such thing as evolution, the Banana proves it (its new member of the Musaceae family). I understand the argument against the 'origin of species' but anything beyond that has got me stumped but the legalistic Christian fundamentalists seem to think otherwise.

As I said above, there's a big problem with trying to argue for or against the existence of the supernatural is that people. With the right prose and knowledge, anyone can twist any known fact to support or contradict the existence of a creator.

Very true. Its amazing what one can do with the gullible. Members (not all, thankfully) of every belief (including Atheism) is guilty of this, twisting the truth of the matter to suit them and their purposes rather than acknowledging what has already been discovered and proven or what has even been said. Denial is a powerful thing.
 
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