Emperical Faith in God

[Artsu Tharaz]

We may not be able to observe god, but we can definitely observe his creations. The universe has waaayyyy too much order and complexity for it all to have been an "accident" ..... or "big bang" as scientists like to call it

Correct, but also incorrect.

The order in the universe is a result of the inherent "intelligence" of matter, i.e. due to the Subjective aspect of Objects.

It is possible, therefore, to model the order of reality without needing to use God.

But I just hate how God/The Creator seems let so many bad things take place on earth. I hope that divine intervention will put an end to this insanity which is taking place on this planet.

Unfortunately, it is necessary due to Free Will that God cannot step in except where we -truly- Will him to.

A consequence of this is that a lot of "evil" must exist in our world, else creation would not be possible.

 

[just me]

VH, you....and I.....are in good company. Most people do not take the time necessary to hear and feel the things you do.

 

[Matariki]

But I just hate how God/The Creator seems let so many bad things take place on earth. I hope that divine intervention will put an end to this insanity which is taking place on this planet.

This is a basic question/statement that pops up on a regular basis. We are responsible for our own problems. Not God. Its our choice whether or not we turn to him for the solution or not. Divine intervention, it depends on what you mean. If you mean for God to take away the worlds problems that would require taking away freedom of choice. God does intervene through irresistible grace by giving an individual a change of heart and spiritual life through Christ, in order for them to serve God and see their own flaws and mistakes as a human being. This is what the bible teaches.

In life we have real choices with real consequences and we have been given the gift of responsibility. Any individual with sense wouldn't blame God for the worlds problems, whether they believed in him or not. Whats God doing wrong that we could do better at?

 

[acd]

This is a basic question/statement that pops up on a regular basis. We are responsible for our own problems. Not God. Its our choice whether or not we turn to him for the solution or not. Divine intervention, it depends on what you mean. If you mean for God to take away the worlds problems that would require taking away freedom of choice. God does intervene through irresistible grace by giving an individual a change of heart and spiritual life through Christ, in order for them to serve God and see their own flaws and mistakes as a human being. This is what the bible teaches.

In life we have real choices with real consequences and we have been given the gift of responsibility. Any individual with sense wouldn't blame God for the worlds problems, whether they believed in him or not. Whats God doing wrong that we could do better at?

This reads like double speak. So we are completely responsible for our choices and problems? But only God can change our hearts and bring us into the fold? So essentially... nobody chooses to turn to God..because turning to God requires being compelled to do so (or interfered with) by God's irresistable grace... Those not receiving this grace are fully responsible for their own eternal status, despite the fact that they can do nothing for themselves to choose God.

So it's interesting that God can't interfere with the world's problems because God doesn't want to interfere with this gift of responsibility; an individual's choices, even though in the long run, it's really God who chooses who will believe..

 

[Matariki]

This reads like double speak. So we are completely responsible for our choices and problems? But only God can change our hearts and bring us into the fold? So essentially... nobody chooses to turn to God..because turning to God requires being compelled to do so (or interfered with) by God's irresistable grace... Those not receiving this grace are fully responsible for their own eternal status, despite the fact that they can do nothing for themselves to choose God.

So it's interesting that God can't interfere with the world's problems because God doesn't want to interfere with an individual's choices even though in the long run, it's really God who chooses who will believe.

@ acd
I speak as a Calvinist, the theology I follow differs from Arminianism. However this discussion is not part of the original thread and I did side track in my response to PeaceSeeker. Here's a couple of links that explains what I'm talking about in more detail if you're interested.

http://www.gotquestions.org/irresistible-grace.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html

 

[acd]

@ acd
I speak as a Calvinist, the theology I follow differs from Arminianism. However the this discussion is not part of the original thread and I did side track. Here's a couple of links that explains what I'm talking about in more detail.

http://www.gotquestions.org/irresistible-grace.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/calvinism.html

I know you are a Calvinist, we've kind of talked about this before.
I am also very familiar with Calvinism.

I think it does relate, because it goes to show that there could never be an Emperical Faith in God.. or even a logical faith in God. To believe in God is to defy empericism and logic.. and I'm not saying that to be offensive, it is just the nature of faith: To trust the directives of a higher being over your own knowledge and perceptions.

 

[Matariki]

I know you are a Calvinist, and I am very familiar with Calvinism. I think it does relate, because it goes to show that there could never be an Emperical Faith in God.. or even a logical faith in God. To believe in God is to defy empericism and logic.. and I'm not saying that to be offensive, it is just the nature of faith.

@acd

Yeah, I was gonna ask if this was a case of deja vu.
A friend of mine once told me "faith is quite logical". The way how I see it is that faith is knowing, and when you know you are able to make logical decisions based off your knowledge. I do agree that I don't think an Empirical faith in God is possible, in the sense of believing in his existence through science. Going back to the bible, IMO there is really no other way for a Christian to believe in God except through Christ.

p.s
No worries, I'm not offended. Good discussion keeps you on your toes.

 

[Jungian Trip]

VH, you....and I.....are in good company. Most people do not take the time necessary to hear and feel the things you do.

Not true. I think the opposite is true.

I was raised Christian. Studied to be a pastor. Studied theology for three years. I put EVERYTHING into understanding the ways of God. My goal was to be eventually be a theologian who merged science and religious reality together, a bridge if you will.

Until I realized that most of the bible is a pile of nonsense. (Oh, god believe me I tried to create a logical, coherent picture, but indeed it is not possible for there are too many inherent contradictions and patently false societal biases within it in order to do this).

No, most people don't challenge the way in which they were raised. Most people who are born Christians die that way- even though many do not think past the surface. Same with people who are inundated in Islamic doctrine. I spent almost thirty years of my life in church and working with church people. Believe, most could not tell you more about their faith than what they hear on Sunday mornings- and fewer develop a detailed analysis of their religious worldview.

To say oh, people don't believe in God because they haven't thought about it is a load of drivel and is just a way for you to glorify how deep and overwhelming good you are without a shed of decent evidence to support your view.

Now, as for Free Will- well, that is a misnomer since in all three accounts of the holy scriptures of the major world religions (Judaism- Hebrew Scriptures/Christianity- Old and New Testaments/Islam- Koran) have a VERY involved God. One who divides the waters, destroys the earth with fire and water, sends manna to feed his children, raises armies and conquers armies, pillar of cloud by day and fire by night, comes in the form of human through a virgin, dies on a cross, raises from the dead (including raising Lazarus) and shows himself to over 500 people and through the Holy Spirit causes people to speak in languages they've never heard.

Yeah, totally aloof.

So when the four thousand children starving to death per hour start receiving manna from heaven and when Jesus places his foot on the Mount of Olives to show his new extraterrestrial, glorified body- then I will believe. But otherwise I have no reason to believe.

 

[Kmal]

Rationality; some feel it is alright to rationalize god through what they call evidence while some have a predisposed biased that doesn't let them rationalize god through anything. It's strange.

 

[~jet]

It's not a fair analogy. The threshold of scientific proof is a much higher than the threshold of evidence you are relying on to believe in God.

Yes, it is possible that one day science may evolve to a point where the existence of God can be proven, but the logic doesn't follow that just because that possibility exists then it will be realized.

Right; I don't want to try to talk you out of believing in god, because I rather would like there to be one; however, in every single example you listed, the scientific method allows us to question, examine, deconstruct, reconstruct, test, evaluate, reevaluate, debunk, undebunk, redebunk, unredebunk, test further, manipulate, regurgitate, et cetera. No faith is really required because we can TEST the nature of the universe. God isn't offering anything for us TO test, so he does require faith... which is not to say, religion (which I've come to discover is about as anti-faith as one can get ,assuming one gets too into it, by definition.) I.e. religion: Hi... believe X, Y, Z or you're evil and we have all the excuse we need to hate/rape/kill you. This is a bit over the top... except when it isn't, of course. People do crap in the name of anything they gosh darn please, so it's not really religion I blame there. The true point was that if a religion requires a certain core set of beliefs, then it goes against faith which is 'trusting without knowing.' If you 'know' something, you don't have to have faith in it. So I separate the terms simply out of simplicity.

As a side note, I get irritated when people automatically disregard something that is in this 'theory' stage. Well, it's only a theory, right! It has no basis in fact. It would be hilarious if not for how much damage this does. Gravity is a theory. It's also an observable fact. We just don't know, for certain, how or WHY yet... the THEORY part is our trying to explain this observed fact.

As for god; Let's hope. And have faith that things'll work themselves out, even if we all go extinct in the process. What is, is, so there's not too much point in worrying about it so long as we each do our best and try not to be so gorram evil all the time. Just please don't be surprised if, upon discovering the true nature of god, it isn't what you or I or any of us expected. =3 I still can't escape the impression of the old testament as the 'spanking' a toddler gets... a toddler who simply doesn't even really understand language yet, and still must be disciplined, warned away from wandering into the road even though we can't know why, yet. SPANK. FEAR, PAIN, etc. Then comes the new testament for a child race who is starting to comprehend the world around them... who has language now (of a sort, I suppose) and can begin to hold a dialogue and think things through, but not quite to the level yet where the complexities of reality can be properly digested. So? Welp... birds, bees, storks, santa claus. We're given the gist without the gall, patted on the head, etc. I just can't help feeling like there are more testaments coming for when we come of age, enter the work force, have our midlife crisis, retire, et cetera.

 

[VH]

I was raised Christian. Studied to be a pastor. Studied theology for three years.

Cool. I am a minister and have a doctorate in theology. I'm curious. Were you involved with a spirit filled church of any sort where miracles and the presence of the holy spirit were undeniably present? Without those, there is no point to being a Christian - so says the Bible. If that's the case, I can see why you left. Who wouldn't?

I put EVERYTHING into understanding the ways of God. My goal was to be eventually be a theologian who merged science and religious reality together, a bridge if you will.

I think this is where you made your mistake. Trying to reconcile two antagonistic schools of thought is admirable, but when you cannot do so, it leaves you with a sense that either you failed or it is not possible.

Until I realized that most of the bible is a pile of nonsense. (Oh, god believe me I tried to create a logical, coherent picture, but indeed it is not possible for there are too many inherent contradictions and patently false societal biases within it in order to do this).

The bible is a spiritual handbook. When taken literally, of course it contradicts itself because it is addressing spiritual concepts through metaphor in most cases.

No, most people don't challenge the way in which they were raised. Most people who are born Christians die that way- even though many do not think past the surface. Same with people who are inundated in Islamic doctrine. I spent almost thirty years of my life in church and working with church people. Believe, most could not tell you more about their faith than what they hear on Sunday mornings- and fewer develop a detailed analysis of their religious worldview.

That's very true and very sad. No arguments here.

To say oh, people don't believe in God because they haven't thought about it is a load of drivel and is just a way for you to glorify how deep and overwhelming good you are without a shed of decent evidence to support your view.

Most atheist friends of mine have thought their views through very thoroughly. When we discuss the issue, the only thing I point out is flaws in their logic, which usually center around making the assumption that all evidence is already known and understood (as in my OP).

Now, as for Free Will- well, that is a misnomer since in all three accounts of the holy scriptures of the major world religions (Judaism- Hebrew Scriptures/Christianity- Old and New Testaments/Islam- Koran) have a VERY involved God. One who divides the waters, destroys the earth with fire and water, sends manna to feed his children, raises armies and conquers armies, pillar of cloud by day and fire by night, comes in the form of human through a virgin, dies on a cross, raises from the dead (including raising Lazarus) and shows himself to over 500 people and through the Holy Spirit causes people to speak in languages they've never heard.

Yeah, totally aloof.

Actually, that 'very involved God' was working because people used their free will to request his intervention. And lest we not forget that God also has free will.

So when the four thousand children starving to death per hour start receiving manna from heaven and when Jesus places his foot on the Mount of Olives to show his new extraterrestrial, glorified body- then I will believe. But otherwise I have no reason to believe and neither do you.

It seems that the miracles that happen every day are not enough to convince you of God's existance, and you have established your own criteria. However, whether you believe in God or not, God believes in you, loves you, and understands you better than you understand yourself. He wants you to come home, but he won't push you. Just gentle nudges like this one.

 

[InvisibleJim]

It is truly irrational to either believe or disbelieve in god.

 

[Kmal]

It is truly irrational to either believe or disbelieve in god.

 

[Jungian Trip]

Believing, in your own reality, is enough to make it real. Whether someone else believes it or not should not matter to you.
It's hard, for now, to get everyone to agree on anything-- some are just empty inside and feel the universe is empty too.

I think the universe is full of wonder and I am quite fulfilled. In fact, I am happier now that I am no longer a Christian.

I see beauty in nature-I see destruction.
I see hope in our abilities to share the planet with one another and with other animals--I see despair, war, hate, and inexplicable intolerance.
I see love in the eyes of my children and in the smile of my wife--I see the headlines everyday that a man has murdered his family or left them in the wake of poverty and the maw of loneliness.

I just see no reason to assume that any of it is associated with a deity or impersonal Force.

 

[VH]

I think the universe is full of wonder and I am quite fulfilled. In fact, I am happier now that I am no longer a Christian.

I see beauty in nature-I see destruction.
I see hope in our abilities to share the planet with one another and with other animals--I see despair, war, hate, and inexplicable intolerance.
I see love in the eyes of my children and in the smile of my wife--I see the headlines everyday that a man has murdered his family or left them in the wake of poverty and the maw of loneliness.

I just see no reason to assume that any of it is associated with a deity or impersonal Force.

Why would anyone assume otherwise?

Someone once told me "God is in control." I asked him "Of what?" He said, "Everything." I said, "Cool! This means I can rape whoever I want because if I do then that means it was supposed to happen!" Too many people make the mistake of not seeing the obvious, which is the fact that God has created a freely operating dynamic environment for us to live in. The world simply does as it does and people may do as they wish. It is the natural order of things.

God's influence comes only when it is requested. "You have not because you ask not." Sure, God is capable of anything, that doesn't mean he's going to break the free will and faith rules that state he has to be hands off unless we ask him to be. Otherwise, how could he truly show us he loved us if he didn't let us do whatever we wanted however we wanted? And how could we ever grow if life was nothing but a script? Sure, if we ask God to be in our lives and to take over control, he will, but it has to be requested, and we always have the right to turn away. That's why if we want his constant providence and protection, we have to be diligent in seeking it.

This wonderful nature that is full of good, bad, beautiful, ugly, and everything inbetween is simply self sustaining without the request of God's influence.

 

[Annabreher]

Actually it's the believers that can be the most annoying haha

While I am a Christian, I have to agree with you. So many Christians give the rest of us a bad reputation. I cringe whenever someone feels the need to step on their almighty soap box of righteousness and declare everyone else is below them because they believe in a different God. Thats one thing I don't agree with. I don't think I ever will. If you have faith a Higher Being exists, then surely thats good enough. Or perhaps virtue alone is sufficient.
Its something I ponder a lot.

-Anna

 

[VH]

While I am a Christian, I have to agree with you. So many Christians give the rest of us a bad reputation.

This exactly ^

 

[Kmal]

i dont know if god is conscious or not, but the possibility of him/it existing is undeniable. i call everything that is, god; hence omniscience and omnipotence. since the human mind, and collective sum of human minds, is a part of everything, it wouldnt be too much of a stretch to fit that into the definition.

 

[Lark]

I dont think that complexity requires there to have been a creator in the sense that a lot of religions or monotheism considers requisit, to be honest I think that a great deal of the worlds religions are still trying to emerge from their anthropomorphic origins and phase.

That said I do believe in God and not pantheism or anything like that, not God as a greater ordering of things or a higher power, God as God. I think monotheism is correct.

Evidence? Well, like I sort of said before for some there's never going to be sufficient evidence, for others they dont need any, it depends on your first principles when its a matter of faith as opposed to merely observable, catalogueable data.

 

[Kmal]

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"[1]

it's universes all the way down. systems within systems within universes within systems within universes