Emperical Faith in God

[Detective Conan]

While I am a Christian, I have to agree with you. So many Christians give the rest of us a bad reputation. I cringe whenever someone feels the need to step on their almighty soap box of righteousness and declare everyone else is below them because they believe in a different God. Thats one thing I don't agree with. I don't think I ever will. If you have faith a Higher Being exists, then surely thats good enough. Or perhaps virtue alone is sufficient.
Its something I ponder a lot.

A lot of my stronger feelings towards larger organized church groups stems from situations like the one described in the bolded statement above. I've never been able to agree with that mentality nor with a lot of the malice between different religious groups. It confuses me, too; for the most part, I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) that the Higher Being described by the faiths today is largely the same from multiple views, with some slight variants depending on which text you read.

Also, I got a kick from the scene in Talladega Knights where the characters argue which Jesus is the superior one. It perfectly illustrates the above issue.

Earlier when I posted in this thread, I mentioned my thoughts on the subject weren't all that organized (looking back, stable is a more accurate term). I realize this is mostly because I don't share the same beliefs as most of the people here in this thread do. More or less I largely disagree with the level of involvement a Higher Being might have in our world because of my personal experiences. Really, though, I've come to realize my conclusions can easily be struct down by those who have contradicting experiences. That's fine; I'm not here to argue on that point unless someone really wants to. However, from experience, I find that such arguments are fruitless for both parties involved.

(Rambling ensues, just warning you readers right now)

I think that the quality of proof needed to prove or disprove the existence of a God depends on how much you think God would be involved in our own world. If you think God needs to frequently intervene in our world, and bad things happen, then you're probably more likely to not believe in the existence of God. If you don't think so, then you might be slightly more likely to believe a God could exist. Of course, both of those scenarios aren't guaranteed to be accurate; it's just what I think tends to be true. The amount of divine intervention in the world depends on how far you're willing to extend the control God has over the world (for example, in an episode of House, one of the patients attributes her recovery to God, but House insists that he cured her; I think the patient more or less attributed everything that went into her recovery entirely to God, while House did not) and what qualifies as divine intervention.

The extent by which God can control the events in our world is a double-edged sword, of course. It can be just as easily used to prove or disprove the existence of God because of the occurrence of evil in the world. However, even here problems can arise. One can argue that evil is evil, no exceptions; another can just as easily argue that we're incapable of seeing the greatness in an event we see as terrible/evil (such as natural disasters). The existence of evil is easier to ignore as proof against the existence of God if you don't believe God is very involved in the world.

Ugh, my train of thought is spinning again. I think that's really all I have to say that hasn't already been mentioned in this thread.

 

[Annabreher]

A lot of my stronger feelings towards larger organized church groups stems from situations like the one described in the bolded statement above. I've never been able to agree with that mentality nor with a lot of the malice between different religious groups. It confuses me, too; for the most part, I think (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) that the Higher Being described by the faiths today is largely the same from multiple views, with some slight variants depending on which text you read.

You are not wrong! I completely agree. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. Its wrong to try to twist and mold their world to fit ours. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And really, people make religion into this giant obstacle. I feel horrible for people who have had people break up with them because of their beliefs. Its sad. I never realized religion defined a person [sarcasm].

-Anna

 

[PeaceSeeker]

This is a basic question/statement that pops up on a regular basis. We are responsible for our own problems. Not God. Its our choice whether or not we turn to him for the solution or not. Divine intervention, it depends on what you mean. If you mean for God to take away the worlds problems that would require taking away freedom of choice. God does intervene through irresistible grace by giving an individual a change of heart and spiritual life through Christ, in order for them to serve God and see their own flaws and mistakes as a human being. This is what the bible teaches.

When 10,000 people get massacred because of the actions of one or two people, I don't think those 10,000 had much of 'freedom of choice.' Evil on this massive scale is what needs to be stopped ..... like a science experiment which has gone horribly wrong!
By divine intervention, I want god to separate the troublemakers from the good people, and stop incarnating troublemakers where good people live.

In life we have real choices with real consequences and we have been given the gift of responsibility. Any individual with sense wouldn't blame God for the worlds problems, whether they believed in him or not. Whats God doing wrong that we could do better at?

Even though I'm probably wrong because my puny human intelligence is so low, god to me could do a better job by intervening in more tangible ways. Right now, there's so little evidence that he is intervening at all that more and more people are becoming atheists ..... and I can't really blame those people.

"God ...... I still love you"

 

[bickelz]

We may not be able to observe god, but we can definitely observe his creations. The universe has waaayyyy too much order and complexity for it all to have been an "accident" ..... or "big bang" as scientists like to call it

This is kind of an argument for god using the second law of thermodynamics.

The second law states that the entropy in a closed system is always increasing. The universe and earth are not closed systems.

I wouldn't exactly call life orderly either. It seems so chaotic, like nothing happens for a reason most of the time. And honestly, when we feel like there is a reason, we're reading into something that means nothing.

 

[PeaceSeeker]

While I am a Christian, I have to agree with you. So many Christians give the rest of us a bad reputation. I cringe whenever someone feels the need to step on their almighty soap box of righteousness and declare everyone else is below them because they believe in a different God. Thats one thing I don't agree with. I don't think I ever will. If you have faith a Higher Being exists, then surely thats good enough. Or perhaps virtue alone is sufficient.
Its something I ponder a lot.

-Anna

I've seen my fair share of sanctimonious idiots as well. Listening to them is like being tortured.
Some of those idiots make it sound like they have daily round table meetings with god to decide how best to move forward

 

[just me]

"Give us this day our daily bread"

 

[Tulip]

hmmm...interesting. I have been reading about the navigation systems in the birds' eyes and how they are born with routes hardwired into their brains so they know exactly which directions to fly for migration regardless of day and night and different weather conditions.

http://harvardpress.typepad.com/hup_publicity/2011/05/an-engineers-eye-on-animal-navigation.html

I have looked into how the solar system operates...a slight error in the process would make the Earth burnt by the sun, or the moon bump onto the Earth.

I have looked into how a human life is formed in the womb...a slight error in the process would cause the whole embryo fail to form. One over how many millions of chance would a human body and all the organs be able to develop successfully?

I wonder who designed these complex systems...or did it just happen by itself or by coincidence?

 

[PeaceSeeker]

This is kind of an argument for god using the second law of thermodynamics.

The second law states that the entropy in a closed system is always increasing.

The entropy is always increasing or remains constant.

The universe and earth are not closed systems.

I can't comment on that, because I don't know how to prove that the universe is not a closed system.
But you make an interesting argument.

I wouldn't exactly call life orderly either. It seems so chaotic, like nothing happens for a reason most of the time. And honestly, when we feel like there is a reason, we're reading into something that means nothing.

By order I was referring to the governing laws of the universe .... from the atomic level to the galactic. I've seen these laws in Mathematics, Chemistry and physics, and I just can't accept that these formulae were accidentally derived.
As for life being chaotic series of random events with little to no harmony whatsoever ..... well it sure seems that way.

 

[bickelz]

The entropy is always increasing or remains constant.
I can't comment on that, because I don't know how to prove that the universe is not a closed system.
But you make an interesting argument.

By order I was referring to the governing laws of the universe .... from the atomic level to the galactic. I've seen these laws in Mathematics, Chemistry and physics, and I just can't accept that these formulae were accidentally derived.
As for life being chaotic series of random events with little to no harmony whatsoever ..... well it sure seems that way.

Well, we can mathematically predict chaos. Math is the language of the universe. It gives it a certain degree of order but trying to explain things outside of mathematics can be very hard.

And earth is definitely an open system.

 

[bickelz]

When 10,000 people get massacred because of the actions of one or two people, I don't think those 10,000 had much of 'freedom of choice.' Evil on this massive scale is what needs to be stopped ..... like a science experiment which has gone horribly wrong!
By divine intervention, I want god to separate the troublemakers from the good people, and stop incarnating troublemakers where good people live.
Even though I'm probably wrong because my puny human intelligence is so low, god to me could do a better job by intervening in more tangible ways. Right now, there's so little evidence that he is intervening at all that more and more people are becoming atheists ..... and I can't really blame those people.

"God ...... I still love you"

Why would God make us smart enough to get to the moon and back but not smart enough to understand him?

lmao when people say they can't understand God's logic because they weren't meant too. It's ironic that we're the only species meant to follow him, yet, he made us lack sufficient intelligence to understand him.

And, there is no divine intervention. But thankfully for the theists, there was a philosophical argument that showed why God would let evil happen.

1. Free will is most important
2. Given complete free will, people will do evil things.
3. Free will is most important so God has a justification for permitting evil and suffering.

Essentially, that's it.

 

[Kmal]

can you understand infinity?

 

[bickelz]

can you understand infinity?

Constantly growing with no end. It can start at a finite point but can never stop growing.

 

[Kmal]

Constantly growing with no end. It can start at a finite point but can never stop growing.

how can infinity start at a finite point? i was under the impression that there is no beginning or end to infinity.

 

[bickelz]

how can infinity start at a finite point? i was under the impression that there is no beginning or end to infinity.

Naw, infinity just means there is no end. Think about the Cartesian coordinate system. If you have the function y=x, from x=0 to x=infinity, the function will go to infinity.

 

[just me]

At what point, then, in the figure eight used as the sign for infinity does it begin: anywhere?

 

[just me]

Why would God make us smart enough to get to the moon and back but not smart enough to understand him?

lmao when people say they can't understand God's logic because they weren't meant too. It's ironic that we're the only species meant to follow him, yet, he made us lack sufficient intelligence to understand him.

And, there is no divine intervention. But thankfully for the theists, there was a philosophical argument that showed why God would let evil happen.

1. Free will is most important
2. Given complete free will, people will do evil things.
3. Free will is most important so God has a justification for permitting evil and suffering.

Essentially, that's it.

I have to say there are those that seek with a lifetime of devotion some things others wouldn't want to spend a day of their time even thinking about. There are different levels of understanding; there is full understanding, there is ignorance, and there is that which falls in between somewhere on that line with arrows pointing in different directions. For one that has no understanding of God to say there is no divine intervention is almost like a stagnant statement. If one is not in the stream of understanding, how can one judge such a thing?

 

[Flavus Aquila]

can you understand infinity?

Limit of Understanding. We can understand that there is logical infinity; but our minds are not capable of understanding infinite things in themselves.


For this reason no miracle/message/prophecy/etc whatsoever can be compelling evidence of God. Only seeing God Himself is compelling - but of ourselves we are incapable of comprehending something infinite - making grace an absolute necessity if one is to see God (ie. grace is necessary to enter heaven).

Why is faith asked? Why then does God not simply grant His grace and show Himself directly?
If God were to show Himself to us plainly, and taking for granted that He is perfect, infinte goodness - we would not be free at all to reject His company, or to choose anything but to love Him. It is not as though we could say "He's pretty good, but I'd rather do x,y,z - because whatever is desirable in x,y,z is also within God. To see God directly would be to love Him completely. So, if we are to have any freedom whatsoever in either loving God or ignoring God, that choice can only be made with a knowledge of existence, but without the knowledge of vision. ie. with faith.

However, understanding the nature of things, and the nature of cause and effect - I think it is possible to conclude with certainty that God exists. However, these 'proofs' shed next to nothing on the nature of God.

 

[gps]

Empirical `faith'?

The `faith' of empiricists IS skepticism
And those in empirical mode trust their senses to test what others accept through faith alone.

No one has to `trust' in air, as air can be sensed, weighed, measured.
Any god which had mass or energy which is accessible to the senses would qualify as an empirically verifiable god.
Otherwise you're talking metaphysics and/or blind faith in a figment of imagination NOT empirically verifiable.

If George Carlin were still alive he could ad empirical faith in God to his list of oxymorons including Military Intelligence and Jumbo Scrimp.

Give me a half kilo of God to go, please.

I have faith in my senses and my skepticism.
One might say that Skepticism IS my Faith.

 

[Lark]

When you see what a mixed bag interventionism has been for the US government you can probably understand why a deity wouldnt be practicing it, as to the idea that he once did, well perhaps he's learned from that, there does appear to be a mutual development between God and man in the scriptures and in most world religions which have deities, not just monotheistic ones.

Maybe it has been a one sided deal, man develops, then his imagined God develops too, one of the most devastating things anyone said to me about faith wasnt from the pages of any of the angry athiests but an agnostic friend who said that listening to preachers in the US was like listening to somone recounting the traits of their imaginary friend.

As to why is faith asked, in most instances the drive is there, its not always channelled in religious ways, so its less asked as innate to people already. God is the answer to the question your conscious and unconscious has been asking, particularly in the second half of life.

Also I think its important to consider the sort of faith or belief which is requisite, it is like that which you are expected to have for your family or your significant other, not "allegiance" or "fealty" (spelling) to a ruler or institution.
To be honest though if God choose to reveal himself totally to everyone, including those not seeking God or practicing a faith in him there'd be no need for belief or faith of any kind, which isnt going to be any more satisfying for either God or man than the present state of play.

 

[Kittencadaveral]

I am SO INTO Empirical faith!

I am INFJ radical christian which means I am doubly misunderstood.
I believe because of up front real in my face contact with the Holy Spirit which knocked my world. My proof is physical experience of "holy" which is
beyond description DIVINE. Personal proof. To the member who wondered
about "bad" in the world. There is an Good/Bad component to our current world. God loved and gave free will to choose good or bad action. All the bad is man's choices. God is so pure He can't be part of any BAD. That's the only reason He begs for us to KNow Him so he can protect and give to you. to those who don't want to read this because christian = right wing
you are SO off the mark. True christianity is like being assigned to take the best care of yourself,family, neighbors, plants, animals and cause the least harm. I've also seen documentaries of scientists are becoming more spiritual as they examine their study areas and find such fascinating beautiful complexity and organization. A real christian has no problem with science. God was a creative explorer too.