Enneagram Type 8

VH said:
The more deeply I read about Enneagram 8, the more it resonates with me. However, Enneagram 8 INFJs (or ENFJs for that matter) are extremely rare, and in a lot of circles considered two types that cannot coexist in the same person. many go so far as to say that NF + 8 is impossible. It certainly feels that way to me. My entire life, I've been a clash of motivations - idealism vs. instinct.

For those of you in the know about MBTI and Enneagram, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this combination.
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Hello, I think you may find these three topics interesting:

http://personalitycafe.com/showthread.php?t=36816

http://personalitycafe.com/showthread.php?t=31649

http://personalitycafe.com/showthread.php?t=509442

These are topics from PersonalityCafe discussing xNFJs and enneagram eight. Although not impossible, it's certainly rare.

As for the people who say enneagram eight is impossible for a NF (or Fe/Fi Dom/Aux), I think they are relaying too much on Stereotypes of what types can/ can't be of a certain enneagram.

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Whilst not impossible, Type Eight does take up a small precentage of all Fe/Fi Dom/Aux types, which can also appear like other types because of the eight core.

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Ennearagm 8 is about power and control, it mostly correlates with MBTI Te and socionics Se. For that matter, most of 8s are ETJs or ESPs, ESTPs>ESFPs and ENTJs>ESTJs. If you relate to enneagram 8 strongly, you might try to redefine your MBTI type, or maybe you're just really rare NFJ 8.
 
DingChavez said:
In short:

http://personalitycafe.com/showthread.php?t=36816

http://personalitycafe.com/showthread.php?t=31649

http://personalitycafe.com/showthread.php?t=509442

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Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk
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This chart is a chart of self-reporting types, and given the error rate of mbti, not to mention the underlying understanding of cognitive functions, is tenuous as a resource to support your opinion. Put simply, most who take the mbti go no further than an initial test...or two...or three. Many choose how they want to see themselves and not who they really are. Finally, some have psychological issues that obscure their true type.

The standard error of measure for each of the four dimensions is fairly large. Unfortunately, the MBTI method of scoring obscures this important distinction. It classifies people into a rigid dichotomy. Thus, two people could have raw scores that are close to one another but that define different classifications. This occurs because there are cutoff points that divide the dimensions. When the score is above the cutoff, one classification is given; if the score is below the cutoff, the opposite classification is given. Although some users of the MBTI try to interpret how close the score is to the cutoff, this practice is inconsistent with the theory of the MBTI. For example, Carskadon argues that the raw scores are overused and contends that "it is probably better to use dichotomous classification”.

In summary, the differences between the two-letter categories are not as sharp and clear cut as it would appear. Because the MBTI uses an absolute classification scheme for people, it is possible for people with relatively similar scores to labeled with much different personalities.

http://www.indiana.edu/~jobtalk/Articles/develop/mbti.pdf

As an INFJ 4w5 sp/sx, I would say with "good certainty" that ENFP, ENFJ and ESFJ do not belong at 4w5. 4w5 and 5w4s are VERY similar and the most reclusive types in the Enneagram model. These are types most prone to isolation, seclusion, avarice (with-holding of self), detachment, preparation and observation (in lieu of participation). These two types can be ghost-like, feeling alone even in crowds. Furthermore, if ENFP, ENFJ and ESFJs fancy themselves to be so introverted, then it seems odd that they self-type as extroverts. INFJ and ENFJ are not the same and you can't shoehorn both types into 4w5...there is a distinction between the two. INFJs are more introspective (E4) and detached (E5), with both higher Ni and Ti in their function stack, so if ENFJs are the "putative" prototype for 4w5, then where do you put INFJs? It is the same for ENFP and ESFJ. As far as E8s are concerned, I see them as either Te-Ni/Si or Se-Ti/Fi (ENTJ, ESTJ and ESTP/ESFP). E8s are THE most comfortable with confrontation.
 
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I'd say if you really want to be a NF and a 8, I'd say ENFJ is the best bet there is. E and J are both positively correlated with assertiveness. 8s tend to repress vulnerability, heighten assertiveness, are lust-oriented, and quite unabashed.

There are different aspects to N, and I'd say an openness to adventure is certainly one way it can manifest. A somewhat idealistic but not navel-gazing, more pragmatic kind of agent of change who represses vulnerability and is supremely bold, assertive, and goal-oriented could wind up being some type of ENFJ.

I'd say IJ types should consider if they're perhaps 4s (who can be intensely angry types, in a way worse than 8s because envy can fuel a truly deadly anger) or 6s.
 
What Brings Eights to Therapy

We often do not see Eights in therapy until they have a major crisis. Their capacity to handle pain without acknowledging it and the reinforcement they get from others for being strong steers them away from self-reflection. The most likely reason for an Eight to seek therapy is the threat of loss of significant others. Someone important to the Eight has “had it” with their behavior and is about to leave: “My wife was leaving me. I had to see how I hurt people ‘who matter’ and how I had denied the importance of other people’s feelings. I deny feeling really bad about hurting people, and this works until people who matter leave.” Another Eight added, “I had to give up the belief that it’s OK to hurt people.”

Other Eights agree that they are the last to know when their “complete control” is an illusion:

• “I was really agitated all the time, denying my emotions about some recent troubles and losses. But, I thought no one could tell. My professor, whom I trusted, asked me ‘what my body was telling me?’ The question caught my attention, and he referred me to a Gestalt therapist.”
• “I just didn’t realize what loss really meant until I experienced it.”
• “Therapy helped me see that my limitations came from me.”


What Does Not Work

Eight clients report that therapists often fail to negotiate their defenses. Eights see through dishonesty easily and, while they do need therapists to be strong, they don’t need us to ‘act’ tough: “It has amused me when therapists try to pick a fight with me in order to see, experience, work with my rage first hand. Any Eight knows when a fight is not real.” Eights warn that if they answer a therapist’s question too quickly, the therapist should be suspicious: “When a therapist asks me a question that is emotional or thought-provoking, I can clam up. It doesn’t mean I don’t want to answer. I want to answer in a way that maintains my sense of control. I may give a quick B.S. answer.” Therapists who continue to accept “B.S.” answers lose the Eight’s attention and trust.

Eight clients also say that formulaic approaches that allow them to stay on the surface or require they play a role don’t engage them: “For me the least helpful is cognitive therapy. It is just too safe. We can put things together and can stay there. It’s fun, I look really good and never get to the vulnerable place. This therapy reinforces staying the same, ‘I have it all together and I haven’t shared a single wound.’” Another Eight adds: “My wife and I had two sessions with this guy in Chicago, and he was using linguistics, trying to get us to re-state with ‘I’ messages, etc. I thought right away, ‘This is not going to work.’ I don’t want to waste my time in therapy, I am impatient.”

Some Eights may perceive a therapist with a reflective style as too passive or weak: “My first therapist was very quiet. I felt I was overwhelming her. The more I talked the more her eyes got big and she got quiet. I ended up feeling bad, like I had done something wrong.” An anxious style is no better: “Later another therapist asked me eager questions like ‘Is this helping? I really want to help you.’ I got rid of her, too.” Eight clients say that therapists should take heed when the Eight asks the therapist questions like: “Are you doing alright?” “Do you understand?” “Are you with me?” If they think the therapist is not strong enough, the Eight may start protecting the therapist by concealing their own needs.

Defended Eights can test and challenge therapists with an impatient, contentious presentation. Some therapists may be intimidated and contract while others could be tempted to adopt a false toughness. Eights warn us that they will read the therapist quickly and give up in disgust if it doesn’t look hopeful. The therapy might have had a chance to succeed if the therapists had known how to read the Eight defense and the fear it covers. Here is how Eights say they act when feeling defended in therapy:

• “I test, and challenge you to see if you are willing to be there with me. I need to know.”
• “I have spent my whole life with people not getting me. I assume you aren’t going to get me either and I come to therapy with a chip on my shoulder.”
• “My first thought is: OK, if we have to do this let’s make it fast, effective and efficient.”
• “Therapists need to understand we will be suspicious and filled with angry denial, and if they can’t stand up and fight, we will go elsewhere. You need to understand, we want help more than we will indicate.”


What Does Work

Eight clients want the foundations of therapy set as quickly as possible. Most talk of needing a strong, honest, smart therapist with whom they feel safe enough to be vulnerable. Therapists need to know it is hard for Eights to establish trust. Most recommend a forthright approach:

• “Therapy needs to be fast and hard-hitting early on.”
• “I need to perceive you have something of power to offer.”
• “For the therapist to effectively meet the Eight energy and ‘hold the space’ they need to be very directive, offering a solid dose of reality.”
• “Don’t pretend. Tell me the truth.”
• “I need someone equal, and intellectually able to handle me.”
• “The therapist has to be really intelligent to make me feel safe.”

One Eight remembered a therapist who approached her exactly right when she was a smart but troubled teenager: “I was feeling so powerless. First he helped me find answers quickly, which was an intellectual hook. Right away he gave me a Transactional Analysis book and said, ‘Here, figure out where you are in the ego blocks section and tell me by the next session.’ What I liked so well was that he connected with my mind first and then later he hooked me up with my emotions.” The value of first being offered intellectual resources was echoed by another Eight: “The therapist was wonderful. I hadn’t realized how I had stuffed my feelings. She gave me information, reading, and assistance with a plan. She kept focus, maintained just the right balance of emotion and direction. She was truthful.” When Eights say they want truth, they are asking us to be our most honest; to speak from our most authentic intelligence of body, mind and heart.

....

Vulnerability and the Need for Protection

As I said, Eights need more protection in therapy than is readily obvious. One highly experienced couples therapist – herself an Eight – noted that many therapists expect the Eight in a couple to be the one to change. She also finds they push unfairly against the Eight’s energy because the Eight seems strong enough to take it. In her own couples counseling, she makes a particular effort to help the Eight’s partner understand and decode the Eight’s strong reactions, partly because Eights often feel misunderstood.

Several Eights were aware that their abundant energy allowed them to mask the side-effects of substance abuse and high-risk behavior. Therapists may need to look below an Eight client’s surface assurances that everything is fine and consider these dangers even if the client won’t: “I can be so in control on drugs. I have the energy to use a lot of drugs and still show up and make “A” grades in school and get any job done. I rationalize it by telling myself that I am so intense and that few people can match my intensity. But drugs can match my intensity, making it an attractive ‘relationship.’ The truth is that Eights are lonely at a core level. We can’t express it because we can’t admit it. The drugs numb the pain.”

Eights say they often neglect themselves and believe they can’t depend on anyone else: “By self-definition, I am both un-needful and undeserving of compassion. I need no one’s caring.”

Working with Denial

Since an Eight’s first impulse is to deny their own capacity to hurt others, therapists might have to fish for buried remorse over damage the Eight may have done. One Eight suggested asking a question like: “People hurt people. Have you ever hurt anyone?” Another Eight said, “My therapist holds up a mirror to me and reminds me of old behaviors that I slip into that don’t work. For me it’s a lot easier just to get mad, leave and forget the bodies I’ve left in my wake.”

When Eights begin to face the damage they may have caused they can get depressed. Both their anger and their passion for life then may seem absent. One Eight who had been through a near divorce advised: “Recognize potential for suicide. The attitude is different from other types. It’s ‘I did the crime, so I’ll do the time.’”

Eights are self-forgetting, which predisposes them to act impulsively in ways they may later regret...

When Eights are impatient and judgmental it often means that their vulnerability is close to their conscious awareness: “Anger is a quick closing of the door against what was about to happen. On this edge Eights are so out of touch with their feelings, except for anger, and so wrapped in denial and so afraid. When a threatening moment comes, along with it comes great risk of being exposed and the weak self being uncovered, the defense is to shut down, to suddenly not give a shit about the process and to deny the moment that had just loomed close and threatening.

“Usually I feel disdain for the whole silly, annoying game of bullshit therapy. There is no point sitting here wasting my time, I’m out of here, fuck this. I’ve felt it as anger, and as resentment and as not exactly boredom but a sort of tired existential ‘why bother?’ reaction. I’ve had two great therapists and in such situations both of them reacted with questions like ‘Did you just stop feeling? Where did you go?’ or ‘You just went away, what were you feeling?’ It also helps me to connect my past with my present feelings.”

Therapy can give Eights a context for examining the Eight’s denial of the guilt and regret they feel about any damage they have caused. It can also help them identify their most authentic intentions, often masked by the aggressive immediacy of their reactions. An Eight described the type of dialogue her therapist effectively used under these circumstances: “I used to give the impression I didn’t care, this is not the truth. I would blow someone off in public and I knew I had hurt them, but in private I would play it over and over in my mind, thinking things like ‘I can’t believe they thought I would do something like that!’ Sort of like changing the subject – thinking about what they thought rather than the fact that I had hurt them.

A therapist might ask me: ‘So you are saying you can’t see how this person’s feelings would be hurt?’ I would say, ‘No I understand they are hurt, but I didn’t mean to.’ The therapist could then push me further by asking, ‘So what did you mean?’ I will say anything to stay on top. If you can help me express what I really mean that helps.”

Eight clients also remind us to be suspicious of the too-quick answer: “If an Eight answers too fast, the therapist might have to identify that process. He could say something like, ‘you are someone who has a quick instinctual answer to most questions and that has worked well for you. But you seem to be ineffective right now in one area of your life. I wonder if you would be open to looking at things in a different way?’”

Converting the Vengeful Mind

For Eights who are ready to face their habits of harshly judging others, holding themselves exempt and acting vengeful, helping them deconstruct their assumptions is useful: “My therapist asks me think about others and where they are, how to stop and collect myself. She openly talks about how I need to stop and think about the judgments I make about others. She asks me why I make them, how do I know I am right, are they well placed. This makes me break it down and tell the truth. I can be so judgmental and when I get going I don’t care if it is true, because it is what I want to believe.”

...

Therapists need to be aware that vengeful thoughts are gatekeepers for deeper feelings that will surface when the Eight’s thought-patterns are interrupted: “I’ve learned to second guess myself. I used to just say whatever I felt like saying. Now I observe how people react to me – with avoidance or fear – and I care about how they feel.” Another Eight added, “Learning to be gentle with myself is harder than being vengeful.”

When Eights interrupt their lustful vengeful energy, they may feel unmasked and child-like. They can especially benefit from tools that help them heal the innocent child within. Learning to be truthful, while staying compassionate, is the work at this point. Meditations that focus on the heart can be especially helpful.
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http://www.enneagram-monthly.com/eights-in-psychotherapy.html

Useful resource for 8's..
 
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This one's amusing:

Type 8 (The Boss)


Motivation: To be in control of their life/environment
Potential problem: Being too domineering and insensitive towards others
Historic antecedent: Totalitarianism
Historic example: Joseph Stalin
Film/TV example: Jimmy (The Black Donnellys)

Characteristics: quick-tempered, likes to manage others, bossy, second place is not good enough, can be hurtful, games are only fun if they win, comes on too strong, wants things done their way, used to getting their way, powerful, strong, own-person, tough, leader, vindictive, controlling, finds it easy to manipulate others, has authoritarian tendencies, tries to surpass the accomplishments of others, uses others and self to achieve goals, wealth seeking, arrogant, self confident, likes to correct people, seeks status and power relative to peers, competitive, makes enemies, can be crude, enjoys fighting, has an all or nothing personality, enjoys antagonizing people

Healthy Type 8: The Leader
assertive, dominant, fearless, powerful


intimidating, prone to anger, will not back down, sarcastic, challenging

Unhealthy Type 8: The Bully
rage-aholic, controlling, abusive, violent
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http://similarminds.com/enneagram/type8.html

But I've read worse.
 
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Eights become unhealthy when they feel that they must stay in control, even if it means using violence to keep others at bay. They feel invincible and all powerful. If they feel like they are truly losing their power, they will destroy whatever they have lost so that others cannot win.
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http://www.fitzel.ca/enneagram/Type8.html

Ugh, this. I have been so destructive in the past, I'm my own worst fear.
 
VH said:
The more deeply I read about Enneagram 8, the more it resonates with me. However, Enneagram 8 INFJs (or ENFJs for that matter) are extremely rare, and in a lot of circles considered two types that cannot coexist in the same person. many go so far as to say that NF + 8 is impossible. It certainly feels that way to me. My entire life, I've been a clash of motivations - idealism vs. instinct.

For those of you in the know about MBTI and Enneagram, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this combination.
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I'm Type 8 (7) with a solid Helper/Thinker/Peacekeeper (5's) AND and INFJ, Aries, Empath. I am quite literally a walking contradiction. Therefore, I am insane and yet so perfectly sane that I just fade into oblivion. Idolized and hated at the same time by the same people. The most loved, admired and respected yet hated, blamed for and spit on all by the same persons. It is MADDENING to be this person. It is maddening to think in the third person because someone has to stand in the middle of these two contradictions and make logical and empathetic decisions. So here I am holding space for these two just trying to make it in this world.
 
Bally Bally Ca said:
I'm Type 8 (7) with a solid Helper/Thinker/Peacekeeper (5's) AND and INFJ, Aries, Empath. I am quite literally a walking contradiction. Therefore, I am insane and yet so perfectly sane that I just fade into oblivion. Idolized and hated at the same time by the same people. The most loved, admired and respected yet hated, blamed for and spit on all by the same persons. It is MADDENING to be this person. It is maddening to think in the third person because someone has to stand in the middle of these two contradictions and make logical and empathetic decisions. So here I am holding space for these two just trying to make it in this world.
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I understand what you're talking about. I deal with the same thing. I've felt half entj. Its extreme contradictions in me. I want to connect with other infj 8s. If you and any infj 8 want to talk my snapchat is mandyopal567
 
VH said:
The more deeply I read about Enneagram 8, the more it resonates with me. However, Enneagram 8 INFJs (or ENFJs for that matter) are extremely rare, and in a lot of circles considered two types that cannot coexist in the same person. many go so far as to say that NF + 8 is impossible. It certainly feels that way to me. My entire life, I've been a clash of motivations - idealism vs. instinct.

For those of you in the know about MBTI and Enneagram, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this combination.
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I'm too, INFJ-A Enneagram 8. Eight came out 98%.
 
VH said:
I am realizing that I am a mean, pushy, domineering prick that is made of rage, lust, and aggression.

It takes zero energy for me to be this way. This is what is at the core of me. It takes energy for me to NOT be this way. It takes energy for me to hold this back, glaze it over, candy coat it, and focus on what is good. It takes energy for me to be kind, polite, affable, and accomodating. When I run out of energy, motivation, and inspiration, this is all that's left of me.

Fuck.
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Feel about exactly the same. When I'm low on motivation or energy I'm like that. I have the "skills" to be otherwise, but then, just simply being takes away a lot of my energy.
 
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