Enneagram Type 8

[VH]

Hi again @VH ~ I know this is an old thread, but I've seen that you've been around now and again recently. Your recent thread "What is an INFJ" caught my attention, and in skimming the enneagram section I decided to read through this thread thoroughly for the first time. I can say that, I feel like I've had a lot of similar experiences to you and feel the same way as you with a lot of what you've said here. Recently I've been leaning more towards being an ENFJ (from my original thoughts of being more ENFPish), and though I'm not 100% sure, that's one more thing that I'm able to relate to you about.

Yeah, sounds like we have a LOT in common. ;-)

I'm still on the fence about ENFJ (and sometimes entertain the possibility of ENFP or INFP, though I'm pretty sure I'm a Beta). If I am an ENFJ, then I'm a very Ni and Ti heavy ENFJ that is missing some of the frontal lobe activity that is sort of their signature. However, my child abuse issues could certainly account for that, as well as a lack of self esteem which could have turned me "inward" at an early age, and left me unable to properly develop those capacities.

As far as E8 goes, I'm starting to think that I'm not an E8, so much as I have a lot of resentment from my abuse issues and will not tolerate being bullied. The key words there being 'resentment' and 'bullied'. I think I'm more likely a 1w9 (core or fix). 1's repress and resent, where 8's express and assert. Like you said, Enneagram behaviors are coping mechanisms, not the core. I think many of the traits I was associating with 8 are simply me being damaged. I identify with a great deal of the "gut" traits, but 1's and 8's share many. Charisma, leadership, taking initiative when needed, drive, anger, rage, etc. However, I am resentful of being bullied because it is wrong. I get bent out of shape if someone bullies someone else - because it is wrong. I don't live in a world where there is no justice and might makes right. I live in a world where there is - and must be - justice, and use my might when it's right.

The majority of E1's are SJ's, so it's easy to assume that E1 implies the sort of adherence to Si's sense of what makes someone good or bad, but an NF would have a much deeper and accepting view of what makes a person good and bad. Add in child abuse issues, and the scope of good and bad at an NF's core is suddenly much different than the standard SJ E1 behaviors. The world is so much bigger than the "rules", and what truly makes a good person is an indescribable quality that we've learned from science fiction, superheroes, and anime - from where all of the faiths we've read about converge. I've never kicked anyone's ass unless they were doing something "bad" like hitting a woman, beating up someone who wasn't fighting back or didn't deserve it, threatening someone etc. My child abuse issues have unlocked my ability to see violence as a possibility, but my conscience still won't let me use it unless necessary. I've even let people punch me without fighting back when I've 'deserved' it because I did something really rotten. Right and wrong are more important to me than my own assertion.

If I am an ENFJ, or ENFP, then it's also possible that I'm an E4 (core or fix). E1 leans ambivert, and E4 leans introvert. E8 leans extrovert so if I were an E8, then I'm definitely INFJ or INFP. However, I'm convinced that E4 is either core or fix, and from what I've read E8 goes Head before Heart/Image, while E1 goes Heart/Image before Head. More weight toward 1-4 rather than 8-4.

Also, when I wrote this thread, I was in the process of coming out of one of the most painful phases in my life. My entire world view (which was tied to my core and my Fe-Fi) was shattered. I have since healed, and looking back, I am fairly certain I was a very unhealthy E1/E4, rather than an E8. I was going by the behaviors and not looking at the core. It took me a long time to overcome that paradigm hurdle, but now that I see it, and especially now that I see the difference between myself and the 8's I know, and how I had to learn to incorporate their brutal practicality into my sense of right and wrong (not the other way around), I'm fairly certain I'm an E1. Perfectionism, moral compass, gut, constantly beating myself up when I'm a bad person, a drive to be a "bully slayer" and especially years and years of built up resentment, it's all more E1 than E8. Interestingly enough, my best friend at the time was an ENTJ 8, and I am certain that in the process of rebuilding myself after having my world view shattered, I adopted a lot of her strengths. Fe does that 'absorbing traits from others thing', and she was certainly a rock in the storm. I needed to be a rock in my own storm, so I absorbed a lot of traits from her, and rebuilt my broken parts in her image.

So, that said, I think I most likely started life as an ENFJ 1w9 sx/so, but my child abuse issues pushed me into Ni, Fi, and Ti and E4 at an early age, and stunted my Fe, leaving me to develop into something much more resembling an INFJ because my function strength ended up being Ni (fairly good shadow Ne because my best friend growing up was [and still is] an ENFP and I absorbed his positive traits) > Fe (with strong shadow Fi due to my abuse issues) > Ti (because I got admired for good grades and 'being smart') = Se (hyper vigilance due to child abuse as well as martial arts since I was 5), even though my preference hierarchy is likely Fe (with strong shadow Fi) > Ni (Ne+) > Se > Ti.

I'm not sure what that makes me, to be honest, other than giving me a little more clarity into how I got here and possibly insight on how to make improvements from here.

However, enough models define all of this (Ni > Fe > Fi > Ti = Se = Ne) as INFJ, so that's what I'm going with until a more valid model comes along.

Edit: Feeling the need to tag @TheDaringHatTrick here for some reason ~_~

Funny, I've wanted to tag her for years. ;-)

 

[sassafras]

Funny, I've wanted to tag her for years. ;-)

Oh, go on, you big flirt, you

Dunno, feel like you are ENFJish too and might have ~things to say~

I always have things to say. That is the problem

Anyway, I've been everywhere on the enneagram and I've settled on several different MBTI types, and while I more or less stopped the journey at 'Fe-Type, I guess?' I guarantee if I sat on this some more, I'd probably change my mind, again. At one time, I thought these systems would give me the tools to figure myself out and set myself on track, but as I get older, I realized that the inner work is endless and it's never going to boil down to a convenient formula.

A while back, I posted this chart which summarizes all the fears and motivations of each enneagram type and what really clicked with me was the fact that each had the same goal for self-actualization: 'let go of their identification with a particular self-image.' / 'Let Go Controlling Their Environment.'

Every single one says this and after years and years of discussing MBTI and enneagram with you guys, this is the single most important thing that I ever took away from this journey.

I doubt this is the answer you were looking for, but now I wanna ask: what is it that you believe you're going to get once you figure out your enneagram type? How will it help you relate to others? How might it hurt you and your relationships?

 

[VH]

Oh, go on, you big flirt, you

Always. My gigantocrush on you endures. ;-)

I always have things to say. That is the problem

I like the things you have to say.

I more or less stopped the journey at 'Fe-Type, I guess?' I guarantee if I sat on this some more, I'd probably change my mind, again. At one time, I thought these systems would give me the tools to figure myself out and set myself on track, but as I get older, I realized that the inner work is endless and it's never going to boil down to a convenient formula.

Oddly, now that I've gotten some distance from the INFJs and their need to try to clarify each other as INFJ or not, I've noticed that the inability to nail down one's type seems to be more common among Ni-Fe users that have a good balance of the functions. However, there's an interesting paradox about borderline ENFJs-INFJs. By nature, Ni-Fe-Se users are able to pick up traits and skills from other people. It's part of how Fe and Ni fuse when they're close to balanced. Ni sees the patterns, but isn't strong enough to maintain itself, while Fe is an urge to imitate but isn't strong enough to maintain itself. The end result is any additional cognitive functions that the ENFJ-INFJ needs, wants, etc. and creates an amazing amount of variety and capacity that seems to defy the model. The weaker Ti makes us want to clarify the answer.

A while back, I posted this chart

OMG! I've been looking for those for a long time! Lost them in a hard drive crash once. Thanks!

which summarizes all the fears and motivations of each enneagram type and what really clicked with me was the fact that each had the same goal for self-actualization: 'let go of their identification with a particular self-image.' / 'Let Go Controlling Their Environment.'

Sounds like 3w4 or a 4w3. ;-)

I doubt this is the answer you were looking for, but now I wanna ask: what is it that you believe you're going to get once you figure out your enneagram type? How will it help you relate to others? How might it hurt you and your relationships?

I am assuming this wasn't directed at me, but I'll answer too, because I like talking to you. ;-) I want to know how my parts work, and why, so I can properly maintain them and hopefully grow in a positive direction while avoiding past mistakes - but most importantly so I can understand and relate to other people, their needs, and expectations.

 

[sassafras]

Oddly, now that I've gotten some distance from the INFJs and their need to try to clarify each other as INFJ or not, I've noticed that the inability to nail down one's type seems to be more common among Ni-Fe users that have a good balance of the functions. However, there's an interesting paradox about borderline ENFJs-INFJs. By nature, Ni-Fe-Se users are able to pick up traits and skills from other people. It's part of how Fe and Ni fuse when they're close to balanced. Ni sees the patterns, but isn't strong enough to maintain itself, while Fe is an urge to imitate but isn't strong enough to maintain itself. The end result is any additional cognitive functions that the ENFJ-INFJ needs, wants, etc. and creates an amazing amount of variety and capacity that seems to defy the model. The weaker Ti makes us want to clarify the answer.

I find this inability to nail down type more of an N thing in general; we're the people who are 'inside out' (this is especially true for NF's) The functions and tools that are subconscious for the general populace are at forefront for us and vice-versa; what is conscious to the general populace is unconscious to us. Which makes our inner-journey that much more difficult. We're already asking all the 'why' questions and we already understand, by default, that existence is a matter of perspective while most people spend their entire lives locked into a singular existence. Trying to nail ourselves down when we already understand our reality is in flux is a frustrating process and we long for some firm ground to stand on. I think that's why so many of us are so attracted to categorical systems like MBTI and Enneagram. We want something that will extrinsically nail us down; something that we can point at and say 'that's me!' and finally stop questioning.

But as you said, that is really the nature of the type.

I think that as we start to develop our inferior functions, intuitive feelers start to move away from this mental trap of trying to think themselves into a stable identity and discover that we become what we consistently practice. If we're constantly thinking about not knowing ourselves, we will never know ourselves, because everyday is a small shift in identity; in self-discovery. On the other hand, once you move into engaging your inferior functions (it's enough to know that they're thinking and sensing functions) you discover more about yourself anyway. You do more. You feel more. You live more.

It's likely that I'm ENFJ. The description fits, but so does the INFJ description. I also see shades of ENTJ, ENFP, INFP and INTP and ISTP in myself from time to time. It really depends on what I'm struggling with in daily life. And I find that I feel best when I just turn off my thinking and stay in the moment. All of my natural talents surface honestly that way. I'm a good leader. I know how to talk to people. I like seeing them smile. I know how to convince them. I know how to charm them. I know when to stay quiet and I know when to stand up and speak my mind. I also find that I don't like spending too much time alone. I always thought that I did my best work when it was me and my textbook, but I actually learn best in a classroom environment. I excel when I have people counting on me to explain things to them and everything crystallizes when I'm lecturing others, whether aloud or via text. These weren't things that I was aware of; I knew in theory that this sounded like me, but a lot of my personality had be quashed by depression and personal difficulties. It wasn't until I let go of mentally trying to piece humpty dumpty back together again that everything gelled again.

OMG! I've been looking for those for a long time! Lost them in a hard drive crash once. Thanks!

Your welcome.

Sounds like 3w4 or a 4w3. ;-)

Except remember that 3 is the universal in the Enneagram. But yes, all of them do state that.

I am assuming this wasn't directed at me, but I'll answer too, because I like talking to you. ;-) I want to know how my parts work, and why, so I can properly maintain them and hopefully grow in a positive direction while avoiding past mistakes - but most importantly so I can understand and relate to other people, their needs, and expectations.

I always love hearing your thoughts, VH, and I completely understand where your coming from. I wish you the best of luck in that journey

 

[VH]

I find this inability to nail down type more of an N thing in general; we're the people who are 'inside out' (this is especially true for NF's) The functions and tools that are subconscious for the general populace are at forefront for us and vice-versa; what is conscious to the general populace is unconscious to us. Which makes our inner-journey that much more difficult. We're already asking all the 'why' questions and we already understand, by default, that existence is a matter of perspective while most people spend their entire lives locked into a singular existence. Trying to nail ourselves down when we already understand our reality is in flux is a frustrating process and we long for some firm ground to stand on. I think that's why so many of us are so attracted to categorical systems like MBTI and Enneagram. We want something that will extrinsically nail us down; something that we can point at and say 'that's me!' and finally stop questioning.

But as you said, that is really the nature of the type.

I think that as we start to develop our inferior functions, intuitive feelers start to move away from this mental trap of trying to think themselves into a stable identity and discover that we become what we consistently practice. If we're constantly thinking about not knowing ourselves, we will never know ourselves, because everyday is a small shift in identity; in self-discovery. On the other hand, once you move into engaging your inferior functions (it's enough to know that they're thinking and sensing functions) you discover more about yourself anyway. You do more. You feel more. You live more.

Genius right there. ^

It's likely that I'm ENFJ. The description fits, but so does the INFJ description. I also see shades of ENTJ, ENFP, INFP and INTP and ISTP in myself from time to time. It really depends on what I'm struggling with in daily life. And I find that I feel best when I just turn off my thinking and stay in the moment. All of my natural talents surface honestly that way. I'm a good leader. I know how to talk to people. I like seeing them smile. I know how to convince them. I know how to charm them. I know when to stay quiet and I know when to stand up and speak my mind. I also find that I don't like spending too much time alone. I always thought that I did my best work when it was me and my textbook, but I actually learn best in a classroom environment. I excel when I have people counting on me to explain things to them and everything crystallizes when I'm lecturing others, whether aloud or via text. These weren't things that I was aware of; I knew in theory that this sounded like me, but a lot of my personality had be quashed by depression and personal difficulties. It wasn't until I let go of mentally trying to piece humpty dumpty back together again that everything gelled again.

This does sound like ENFJ to me. As ENFJ develops, it grows into INFJ (more Ni), ENFP (more Se), and INFP (more shadow Fi). If an ENFJ develops good frontal lobe activity (especially on the left side of the brain), they can seem like ENTJs. Strong Ti can develop some similarity with ISTP or INTP, especially when their feelings begin to shut down. Aside from switching ENTJ for INTJ, this would also be the types I have identified with at times.

I'd call it ENFJ+

However, there is a difference between fitting descriptions and fitting what the descriptions are trying to describe... if that makes any sense. The same is even more the case with Enneagram since the descriptions are trying to describe something very deep and abstract.

I always love hearing your thoughts, VH, and I completely understand where your coming from. I wish you the best of luck in that journey

Thanks hun. I am definitely a lot further along than not. Things have been falling into place as far as my ability to grasp the deeper (and in some cases simpler) concepts.

 

[VH]

Update:

I had a chat with Dario Nardi, the guy who does the correlation between neuroscience and MBTI types, and he let me take the quiz he uses for seminars that attempts to measure activity levels in the regions of the brain that the EEG study measured. He is currently looking over my results, (which I might add is profoundly awesome of him to do), but he did make a few initial statements before delving into analysis.

We see activity in listening, observing, artistic, and some physical areas as well as social responsiveness and self of identity. Looks like an introvert with low thinking and low sensing-judging, so perhaps NFP, though the P3-ant region stands out as atypical. Again, I'm just sort of guesstimating from memories of various posters folks have filled out. So I could be fairly off, statistically speaking.

... and after I showed him a guesstimate of my activity levels...

Typical ENFP pattern includes O2 > O1, Fp2 > Fp1, high F7, etc. The left interior (low F3, C3, and P3) is really typical of NF types. Having high F4 and low otherwise for F3, P3 and P4 is also typical of NF types. A tip off against NFJ is low T3. And ENFJs tend to have high Fp1. I'd say it looks *more* like NFP than before. Of course, cognitive skill set is not equal to type preference.

So, his off the cuff guess seems to be that I'm an introverted NF, leaning ENFP, and likely not NFJ.

Then I visited my chiropractor who is a certified Enneagram instructor or some such title like 'counselor' or 'educator' that I can never remember, and talked to him about Enneagram some more. He's convinced that I'm an 8w9. He went on at length about how I cannot possibly be a 1, and everything he used to qualify 8 actually applied to me.




Today's Lesson: I don't know shite about myself, or any of this stuff, LOL.



Thanks for reading.

 

[sassafras]

Update:

I had a chat with Dario Nardi, the guy who does the correlation between neuroscience and MBTI types, and he let me take the quiz he uses for seminars that attempts to measure activity levels in the regions of the brain that the EEG study measured. He is currently looking over my results, (which I might add is profoundly awesome of him to do), but he did make a few initial statements before delving into analysis.



... and after I showed him a guesstimate of my activity levels...

So, his off the cuff guess seems to be that I'm an introverted NF, leaning ENFP, and likely not NFJ.

Then I visited my chiropractor who is a certified Enneagram instructor or some such title like 'counselor' or 'educator' that I can never remember, and talked to him about Enneagram some more. He's convinced that I'm an 8w9. He went on at length about how I cannot possibly be a 1, and everything he used to qualify 8 actually applied to me.




Today's Lesson: I don't know shite about myself, or any of this stuff, LOL.



Thanks for reading.

Dude, did we not spend like two weeks pming back and forth about your Pness? It always comes down to the Pness with you.

Teasing aside, that is pretty awesome and I can't wait to hear more about your results. Where on earth did you get that brain activity map, by the by? Is that your individual creation?

 

[VH]

Dude, did we not spend like two weeks pming back and forth about your Pness? It always comes down to the Pness with you.

I love me some Pness.

Um... I forgot? What was our final outcome... about my Pness?

(Other than it's 18cm?)

Teasing aside, that is pretty awesome and I can't wait to hear more about your results. Where on earth did you get that brain activity map, by the by? Is that your individual creation?

It's kind of a long story how I ended up in touch with Nardi, but I've been talking to him about helping with the web design and graphics for his new website, which is focused on the brain map / neuroscience / cognitive function stuff. He uses this particular map layout in his seminars, which is used to color code questionnaire scores for each region - and thus simulate the maps his EEG testing created. I took it upon myself to use his template map to make a color template that can be used to input scores and create graphics in conjunction with the online version of his test. So, yes, I made the graphic, but he let me take his test, and those color codes are my results.

I've been looking over the maps from his subjects and seminars, and I can see what he's saying about "introverted NF" or "possibly ENFP". INFJ and ENFP are the closest matches to my map as far as I can tell. ENFJ has some clear differences from my map, and INFP is also pretty far from the mark. At this point, I'd have to guess that he's going to come back with INFJ after some analysis. The T3 issue he mentioned as distinguishing my map from NFJ comes from my complete lack of musical ability. The rest of my T3 scores are solid. Also, the INFJ maps almost consistently have the P3 ant spike that he mentioned was not consistent with ENFP.

Okay, maybe I know this stuff better than I assumed for a moment, and I don't have to have a paradigm meltdown.

I'm also pretty convinced that my chiropractor is simply sticking to his guns because he doesn't want to be wrong (ESTJ 3w2). His original guess was that I was a 1, but he's since changed his mind because he thinks that 1's have to be excruciatingly tidy and tightly wound. I really think he's missing the point to E1.

However, I'm also pretty certain I have derailed this thread to a degree that I would feel very bad about, had I not been the OP.

 

[sassafras]

I love me some Pness.

Um... I forgot? What was our final outcome... about my Pness?

(Other than it's 18cm?)

I believe we agreed to disagree about Fi being either one of your top tier functions. I can forward the messages to you again, if you'd like. If I recall correctly, we kind of derailed and started talking about shadow functions and our theories somewhere along the way too.

It's kind of a long story how I ended up in touch with Nardi, but I've been talking to him about helping with the web design and graphics for his new website, which is focused on the brain map / neuroscience / cognitive function stuff. He uses this particular map layout in his seminars, which is used to color code questionnaire scores for each region - and thus simulate the maps his EEG testing created. I took it upon myself to use his template map to make a color template that can be used to input scores and create graphics in conjunction with the online version of his test. So, yes, I made the graphic, but he let me take his test, and those color codes are my results.

I've been looking over the maps from his subjects and seminars, and I can see what he's saying about "introverted NF" or "possibly ENFP". INFJ and ENFP are the closest matches to my map as far as I can tell. ENFJ has some clear differences from my map, and INFP is also pretty far from the mark. At this point, I'd have to guess that he's going to come back with INFJ after some analysis. The T3 issue he mentioned as distinguishing my map from NFJ comes from my complete lack of musical ability. The rest of my T3 scores are solid. Also, the INFJ maps almost consistently have the P3 ant spike that he mentioned was not consistent with ENFP.

Okay, maybe I know this stuff better than I assumed for a moment, and I don't have to have a paradigm meltdown.

I'm also pretty convinced that my chiropractor is simply sticking to his guns because he doesn't want to be wrong (ESTJ 3w2). His original guess was that I was a 1, but he's since changed his mind because he thinks that 1's have to be excruciatingly tidy and tightly wound. I really think he's missing the point to E1.

However, I'm also pretty certain I have derailed this thread to a degree that I would feel very bad about, had I not been the OP.

Aren't INFJ and ENFP's inverts of one another? To be honest, I don't have a mental visual of how the functions would be mapped out on the mind, but now that I think about it, I'd like to see the theorized region of the brain responsible for extroverted versus introverted expressions for each of the functions.

 

[VH]

I believe we agreed to disagree about Fi being either one of your top tier functions.

My functions scores average Ni (41), Fe (38), Fi (33), Ti (32), Se (27), Ne (26), Te (22), Si (17). I can't remember who's stance was what. I think I score higher on Fi on that test than it might be.

I can forward the messages to you again, if you'd like. If I recall correctly, we kind of derailed and started talking about shadow functions and our theories somewhere along the way too.

Wow. You have an amazing memory.

Aren't INFJ and ENFP's inverts of one another?

According to some theories on how types work, yes. In other theories it's INFJ-ESTP and ENFP-ESTJ. This neuroscience stuff kinda throws some of the assumptions from those type models out the window, though. For example, there are rather clear patterns in most of the brain maps of specific types, but there is also a surprising degree of variation. However, there does seem to be more overlap in the static maps of ENFPs and INFJs than the others. What distinguishes Ni from Ne is the way in which the mind interacts with itself over time. Ni forms this sort of pre-sleep zen state that tries to function in all areas of the cerebral cortex simultaneously at moderate levels of activity. It makes the map turn solid blue. Ni doms reflexively enter this state more often than other types, and stay in it longer. Ne is like this Christmas tree effect, with each area firing at random and at random levels of activity. Reminds me of the probability drive from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. So, while the overall activity in any given area is similar, how they use those areas is pretty clearly different.

To be honest, I don't have a mental visual of how the functions would be mapped out on the mind, but now that I think about it, I'd like to see the theorized region of the brain responsible for extroverted versus introverted expressions for each of the functions.

I'm not exactly sure which areas are introverted and which are extroverted yet. I'm still learning the subtler intricacies of this stuff. Fascinating.

 

[VH]

.

 

[bionic]

I'm confused after reading this myself LOL .... and I have no Pness!

 

[sassafras]

I'm confused after reading this myself LOL .... and I have no Pness!

Now you know how I feel about socionics. Fucking hieroglyphics summoning demons and shit. Impale that on the wall with a broadsword.

Also, 'sup

 

[arbygil]

If it helps, VH, I could very well see you as an ENFP. One of my former bosses was an ENFP and I've known a few ENFP males. They are usually very creative and very scheduled folks. But I did notice a few differences, in that we came to conclusions on things differently. Come think, both of the guys I'm thinking about were probably 8w7 or 8w9. But the NF in them made them very loving, kind, and sensitive individuals with dynamic personalities.

 

[sassafras]

If it helps, VH, I could very well see you as an ENFP. One of my former bosses was an ENFP and I've known a few ENFP males. They are usually very creative and very scheduled folks. But I did notice a few differences, in that we came to conclusions on things differently. Come think, both of the guys I'm thinking about were probably 8w7 or 8w9. But the NF in them made them very loving, kind, and sensitive individuals with dynamic personalities.

Seconded, though the ENFPs I know are very all-or-nothing folks. They're only scheduled and dedicated when what they're doing interests them. Otherwise, good luck keeping their attention. They'll do nothing productive for days (or weeks) at a time and not give a flying squirrel so long as they're mentally engaged somehow. Getting them to do something they don't want to do is like pushing a boulder up a hill. Very head-strong, intelligent people, ENFPs... but very, very touchy. As often as they change their minds, you will never be able to talk them into anything, and God help you if you catch 'em in a foul mood.

 

[VH]

Since no one seems to have a problem with the complete derail~

Okay, Nardi said that after looking at the data and comparing, he thinks my pattern best fits ENFP, but admits that INFJ is very similar. I'm not sure if he's saying that he can understand how I thought I was an INFJ but am an ENFP, or that he's saying his guess is ENFP, but that INFJ is his runner up pick.

However, those of you who know me and are aware of my degree of OCD and massive amounts of over analysis won't be surprised that I just spent the last 3 hours compiling an average of all of the regions in each of the brain maps of subjects with ENFP and INFJ preferences. My map is in the middle. Here's how my map stacks up against them.

So, here is my conclusion.

The pattern in Fp1 and Fp2 is what is causing the type to have similarities with ENFP, as Fp1 and Fp2 govern how we regulate our thought processes, and therefore interaction styles. These regions are strongly associated with Te and Fe. Having a checkerboard effect that I do, is indicative of Ne. The outer Fp wants to interact, and the inner Fp wants to regulate. In my case, Fp2 wants to interact with people, while Fp1 wants to express itself. Without strong activity in the corresponding regions of this checkerboard effect, I lack the ability to see the logical big picture as well as self regulate. (In other words, my Te sucks.) Therefore, my interaction style is very much like ENFP. I blab with enthusiasm and want to express myself, often talking over people, often unaware of anything other than I'm enjoying expressing myself to people. If I had the Fp2 area working at a similar level, I'd be more able to stop myself from railroading conversations, or writing walls of text. End result. Very NF, quite E, and appearing to have Fe elements.

However, the rest of my brain is laid out like the INFJ pattern, almost to a textbook degree. Add in activity in areas used by visual artists, and martial arts, and it's a perfect match.

I think what's going on with me is simple. I'm an INFJ who is lacking solid activity in one rather crucial region of self regulation, which causes my ADD, as well as my lean toward an ENFP manner of self expression, despite my INFJ thought processes. This also explains why I can come off like an 8, since low activity in this area can also create a certain degree of bravado and intensity. (See what I did there? I brought this thread back to Enneagram 8. Clever. I has it.)

If there's one thing I've learned from this study, it's that type models are only guidelines of commonality. Some people fit neatly into these guidelines, but they are by no means rules. Everyone is unique, though patterns do exist and can be untangled when the patterns are not especially clear.

I think I'm simply living up to the title of Variable Hybrid. I'm INFJ on the inside and ENFP on the outside.

 

[sassafras]

I think this speaks volume of my maturity, but I burst out laughing as soon as the images loaded. At first glance, those mind maps look like giant reject Easter Eggs.

Moving along, I have to admit, I really don't follow what you're laying out here or, specifically, what would lead you to conclude that you're an INFJ-ENFP hybrid. I think I'm missing some key lesson in mind-mapping 101 and maybe MBTI in general, but I thought that the fundamental basis of why we only have 16 possible combinations of MBTI types out of the mathematical possibility of 70 was because there is governing order as to how functions develop, organize and express themselves in the brain. Specifically, you either develop Fi or Fe or Ni or Ne or Te or Ti or Se or Si in your top order. I also understand that your inner functions are an expression of our outer functions and vice-versa. If people can have any given arrangement of functions and different expressions, the question remains: do we really have a system at all?

Or more relevant yet, given all this tweaking, how much of our identity are we laying at the feet of a pseudo-scientific model?

With all due respect, VH, my impression is that you're coming in with a particular bias here and developing the theory around that rather than testing the limits of the system objectively. I think it would be interesting to see what conclusions you'd draw if the subject was someone who is not you.

Either way, it's an interesting exercise you've done here, though most of it anecdotal and about 60% of it confuses a lot of what I (thought I) knew about MBTI, so I apologize if I can't give you the feedback that you were looking for.

Edit: One last thought. Your desire to break the wheel and get the system to explain your individual anomalies is something that I hope you're taking note of. You're certainly more inventive than systems-oriented and that shows time and time again. I don't know where that fits into your analysis, but I thought I'd point that out. Good luck on your journey!

 

[VH]

I think the best way to describe my thought process since Nardi asserted that I am an ENFP is this.

[video=youtube;sVEY5AL5zzk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVEY5AL5zzk[/video]

Finding out that I'm not an INFJ, but instead that I am an ENFP felt a lot like this. I went from awesome and sexy to goofy and bonkers in one fell swoop of neuroscience.

Fuck it. Still a Time Lord.

I'm just doing that thing where the new Doctor is trying to figure out who he is and how he works, and whether or not he likes fish sticks and custard. I'm a bit baffled and confused, and apparently looking for someone to spring board ideas off of so I can orient.

I think this speaks volume of my maturity, but I burst out laughing as soon as the images loaded. At first glance, those mind maps look like giant reject Easter Eggs.

Yeah, they need more pastels to be accepted as proper Easter Eggs.

I think it would be interesting to see what conclusions you'd draw if the subject was someone who is not you.

If it wasn't me, I'd probably say, "because the reduced activity levels in Fp2 Interior govern how we regulate our thoughts, this is likely what makes the difference between ENFP and INFJ. Everything else is secondary to Fp2 Int's inability to regulate the cingulate gyrus, as personality type really does boil down to dominant functions being our effective operating system. However, the similar activity levels will produce very similar behaviors and thought processes, but ultimately the weak Fp2 Int will cause whim, distraction, and impulse to win out, both in behavior and thought process. I'd say this is an ENFP that has adopted INFJ traits. In order to be an INFJ, the subject would have to have much greater levels of activity in Fp2, in order to maintain the cingulate gyrus at consistent moderate levels in all areas."

Either way, it's an interesting exercise you've done here, though most of it anecdotal and about 60% of it confuses a lot of what I (thought I) knew about MBTI.

This study does a fascinating amount of redefining what most people thought they knew about type.

 

[VH]

Sorry, forgot to answer this one... which was the main one I wanted to address.

If people can have any given arrangement of functions and different expressions, the question remains: do we really have a system at all?

I don't think people can have "any given arrangement" so much as I think the Nardi findings are disproving a fair number of assumptions, such as cognitive function hierarchy.

Jung postulated that people have a dominant function and an auxiliary function and all other functions are "inferior functions". He also stated that any two functions could be the dominant and auxiliary. Jung himself claimed to be Ti and Ni (or Ni and Ti, depending on which interview you consult). As best as I can tell, the only "rule" in Jung's system was that the dominant and auxiliary must be a judging and a perceiving function. He tinkered with the possibilities of personality types for decades and never once came up with anything resembling the cognitive function models that are currently assumed to be valid.

Nardi's findings are proving Jung right, and proving the assumptions that have come after him incorrect. Dominant functions are rather clear under EEG scan, not only in what areas of the brain have the most activity, but most importantly, how those areas tend to interact with one another. These static snapshots don't explain how a these regions interact in real time, and that's really where dominant functions become apparent. They appear to be 8 distinct operating systems. From there, it appears that there is a right and left brained version of each. That's where we get the 16 types. However - and this is the really important part - activity levels in an individual vary greatly outside of the dominant function pattern.

Take mine for example. For an INFJ or ENFP, I have somewhat elevated activity in O1, O2, C4 which are regions that are utilized in visual arts. I have elevated activity P3 Anterior is used in visual arts as well to some degree, but it's also used in full body movements, which I've been into martial arts and sparring my whole life. These are developed skills. However, if I am an ENFP, I also have reduced activity in P4 Posterior (Systems Thinker - often associated with "Te") but increased activity in F3 (Deductive Analyst - often associated with "Ti"). These distinctions don't throw the overall INFJ - ENFP pattern off, but does show individual variance.

According to Nardi's analysis, I am definitely an N dom and an F auxiliary. I'd assumed it was Ni, but considering the weak Fp2 Int, it is more likely that I am in fact using Ne. Interestingly enough, the key indicator as to whether or not I'm using Ni or Ne is also associated with Fe when active and Fi when not. However, the additional levels of activity that I have developed tend toward Ti and Se behaviors and processes, and I'm weak in a few regions associated with Te. This doesn't mean I'm using Ti or Se or even if I'm using Fe or Fi. What it means is that I have heightened activity levels in regions associated with Ti and Se and weakened activity in areas associated with Te and to some extent Fe. If I were using any of those functions, I'd actually be using a completely different operating system (dominant function) with respect to how my regions interact with each other. Those operating systems extensively use the regions associated with them, but that's part of the problem with the static models of activity levels. They don't illustrate the model in action, only the after effects of it having been in action. But, those footprints really can give us a good idea of how it operates when in motion.

This means there are really only 8 different types (ways in which the brain is wired), each with a right and left variant.

... pretty much what Jung said.

Some people have very typical levels of activity in regions associated with their dominant function's pattern, while others develop activity levels outside those models, even a great deal of activity. However, that doesn't change how their brain interacts with itself. It only changes what areas the brain tends to go to while interacting with itself.

Determining type really is as simple as determining dominant function pattern.

 

[VH]

I've been having conversations with Nardi via email, and laid out what I have in the previous posts, along with the graphics. Here was his reply.

...you've definitely hit the nail on the head in terms of the take-home message. A lot of people in the type community try to apply type to the whole person and search for a "pure" representation of each type, as if there is a dictionary definition of INFJ or whatnot. People are organic and grow within their environment. A good part of who we are is influenced by skills we pick up as part of our career, hobbies, and close relationships, and maybe even body type and genetic predispositions (for art, music, etc).

The data set is mostly people in the type community who are confident of their best-fit type and are in the human resources professions such as counseling, coaching, teaching, etc, though a fair number of enthusiasts of all backgrounds including engineering. I wish I had kept more tabs on professional background as I gathered these!

It's interesting you came away equally distant from both types. I wonder if we compared your result against the variance within a type, if the +1s and the -1s (or more extreme differences) lie more within one range of variance than another...

Seems like I'm somewhere near the ballpark of Nardi with respect to this stuff. That's pretty cool in my book.

When comparing the INJ child and the ENP child descriptions, I was definitely more the INJ child.

My best friend growing up was an ENFP / ENTP, and we're still close. One of my closest buddies is an ENTP, and I'm currently dating an ENTP. I have lots of ENPs in my life. I prefer the ENTPs, but I do like my ENFPs, especially when they're healthy. Combine this with my weak Fp2 Int, and I can see how I've developed a lot of their mannerisms, and even some thought processes.

Looks as if the correct answer really is that I'm a hybrid, but between INFJ and ENFP, rather than INFJ and ENFJ. Some of it was inherent, because people are simply who they are with their own levels of activity, and another part was influences. However, I have always been more outgoing than my "clear" INJ friends, yet not nearly as much as my ENP friends. So, I am fairly certain that a fair amount of it is nature, rather than nurture. My assumption is that nurture only enhanced what was already there.

So... now to figure out how my Enneagram type factors into all of this, and if I really am an 8. Judging by the areas of activity and the degree to which I span the INFJ / ENFP types, perhaps I am confusing simple NF idealism with Enneagram 1. Perhaps at my core, I really am an 8.