Feminism and it's impact on today's society

[Trifoilum]

I love feminism as someone with a body of a man, because (amongst EVERYTHING ELSE), now men can feel.

/shrugs

There's this feeling that the OP and me have different ideals of feminism/gender, and we already have our opinions neatly made, and thus I'll leave it at that and bid farewell.

 

[Zebraf301]

I'm curious, what it is in your life that has prompted your stance. I'm thinking it may be more specific than you have let on.

In my environment, (a hospital), there is a definite line between the two. Obviously, medically, sex cannot be ignored, period. Why should it? It's just not practical. Professionally, there are definitely more female nurses, then male ones, which quite frankly, most patients are more comfortable with. I've never had a man, or woman ask me if there were any male nurses to care for their parts in lieu of myself, but very often, male nurses are rejected for female ones. For whatever reason, it's a knee jerk reaction. I think we have zero female security staff, which quite frankly, most people feel more secured by. Anatomy, physiology, chemistry, they just are not the same. Period. A woman could make a good security guard, but a 250 lb man (who is statistically stronger than a woman), up against a 150lb woman with Kevlar gloves, and just 6 weeks of training, offsets the balance. That's just my environment. I won't bring female police officers into this, because that's another kettle, which I don't know enough about.

Basically, things are peaceful if the basic facts are acknowledged, not defied... What I do feel troubled by, are cultures that feel that it is within their right to devalue another person because of their sex. One is not worth more than the other. Ying, and Yang... Work with pay, is not a masculine thing, it's a survival thing. Wearing a skirt, is not a feminine thing, it's a cultural thing. Caring for your offspring, is not a feminine thing, it's a parental thing. But, I'm sorry daddy, I'm getting my mat. leave, my body needs to recover, and this baby needs a breast. Education is not a masculine thing. When the concept of male VS female is exploited to oppress others, then there is a problem. We should never pretend though, that we are something we are not. It's counter-productive. That's what feminism should be about, and I think for the most part, it is. Every movement has members that loose site of the meaning behind it though. Those are often the ones that go beyond principle, and injure the progress that has been made.

 

[the]

In Sweden men are given paternity leave. Thanks to feminism. Parental leave in the US sucks.

Where is the feminist outrage for this in the us?

 

[the]

My personal opinion is that women make less than men because they tend to be less ambitious. I think it's biological and related to testosterone. I don't think it's because women are oppressed.

Lbapparently there was a study that said that women dont get raises because they dont ask. This could go along with your theory.

 

[Jill Hives]

Lbapparently there was a study that said that women dont get raises because they dont ask. This could go along with your theory.

Interesting. At my last job I did ask for a raise. And I got one. Woo! It wasn't a very big one...but I did get one.

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

Here is a lecture by Elizabeth Warren at the "UC Berkeley Graduate Council Lectures". In this lecture she explains Feminism's indirect role in destroying the middle class via the "two income trap".

[video=youtube;akVL7QY0S8A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A[/video]

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

I think feminism is great when it's used as a way to reach equality. If it discourages people from being anything other than their natural born selves then I'm not feeling it but I choose to ignore that interpretation.

I think women are naturally better with children. I would like to see women continue to specialize in roles involving children because they are simply best at it. The problem with our current society is that men and women aren't specializing anymore so households aren't running efficiently. It used to be that the man specialized in providing income while the woman specialized in maintaining the household. Nowadays men and women are half-assing both and not specializing in either. I'm not sure if that problem is tied to feminism but it might be.

 

[IrenaShav]

When it comes to spitting and wearing clothes of the opposite gender--do you really think people like that didn't exist before feminism? You pick out the most trivial things and ignore all the benefits.

That is not correct, I do not ignore all the benefits. I believe that feminism has a lot of advantages like women having the right to vote, work, earn money, etc. If I didn't mention those aspects of feminism it doesn't mean that I am ignoring them or opposing them. I only mentioned the by-products of feminism that I find unnatural, such as the fact that today's men are starting to look like women and women are starting to look like men.
It is a bit random and hypocritical from you to say that I picked out the most trivial things such as spitting, when you well know that it was only a response to your question about what exactly I meant when I said that women are acting like men.

 

[IrenaShav]

Its intriguing how threatened people can become when others do not meet their expectations.
I think life is more interesting when people feel free to express themselves, when they have cast off the shackles of expectations from others.

I don't know about others, but I don't feel threatened by anyone. You have every right to express yourself as you want, curse, spit, and act as loud and dominant as you want, and I have every right to call such behavior unnatural for a woman.
Anyway, I believe you are somewhat personalizing this subject. I'm not talking about you specifically, I'm talking about society as a whole.

 

[IrenaShav]

No offense, but what do you know about being a man or the pressures put on men to conform to whatever
idealized way people want us to act?

I don't know much about that, but I wasn't talking about it either.

 

[Zebraf301]

I don't know about others, but I don't feel threatened by anyone. You have every right to express yourself as you want, curse, spit, and act as loud and dominant as you want, and I have every right to call such behavior unnatural for a woman.
Anyway, I believe you are somewhat personalizing this subject. I'm not talking about you specifically, I'm talking about society as a whole.

You are being too broad, and so making it easier for people to attack you, which I don't like to see. It's like a meeting that covers too many areas, so nothing gets resolved, just random shots thrown across the room. I'm interested in an example of what brought you to feeling compelled enough to start this thread. What triggered the topic?

 

[bamf]

I like the freedom to express one's gender much more so than being trapped in gendered expectations.

Do you really think that feminists are making men look like women. As in, they are in some way forcing men to look and act like women, or did you consider the posibility that these people always wanted to be this way, and as a society we are beginning to grow more accustomed to people being and acting the way they want and that feels natural to them?

 

[IrenaShav]

You are being too broad, and so making it easier for people to attack you, which I don't like to see. It's like a meeting that covers too many areas, so nothing gets resolved, just random shots thrown across the room.

It's true that I'm being too broad. The reason for it is that when I was writing the first post, I was too lazy to write my opinion more specifically. Besides that, if I immediately wrote a long elaboration with all the logical arguments the following discussion would be too boring and limited for me, and I believe less people would respond. I was going for a wider audience and somewhat emotional responses, it's more interesting that way. I don't mind people attacking me, I don't take it personally. It is kind of annoying when people are implying that I said something which I didn't though, but I'll endure it for the common good.

 

[IrenaShav]

I'm interested in an example of what brought you to feeling compelled enough to start this thread. What triggered the topic?

Interesting question. Recently I met a young man who has such natural, raw, strong male energy that women chase him like dogs. This energy was almost tangible. He was very different from most of today's men and unaffected by trends on some basic level. I, too, was fascinated with him and started to wonder why he's the only person with that kind of energy I ever met. I wondered if heterosexual men were like that before the sexual revolution.

 

[Azazel]

Here's how men used to look like. Hardly masculine fashion by today's mainstream beauty standards. It is always changing to some degree... So what's the deal with this femininity/masculinity? Society says such and such trait belongs to a man or woman. I think it is bullshit. Who has the monopoly on these traits? I took something from my dad and something from my mom, plus upbringing blah blah blah Why to be a cookie-cutter version of a whoever? It would only create neuroses, I believe. If it feels completely unnatural to be passive, sit and obey?! :S Just like it feels unnatural to the others to be active. I don't see the problem as long as two live in harmony.
Idk how is it like where you live, OP, but I see different men and women around me from ultra-feminine to a butch, from a macho guy to a very "girly"(?) boy. I'm fine with it, it is the variety and hardly boring. Spitting isn't attractive on anyone, imo.

 

[Quiet]

The goal of feminism is not to make women into men and men into women. The goal is be what we are/want to be, regardless of constructed social and cultural pressures. Social and cultural pressures are not who we are- they are simply how we have been forced to conform and define ourselves for a long time. Feminism is not about fighting biology or what we naturally want to do- its about fighting against socially and culturaly constructed ideas that restrict us and prevent us form expressing our true form and being. We are evolving to a new way of thinking and being, where we can see the bullshit for what it is.

Let people be- each to their own. If they are not hurting you or someone else, than what does it matter if a behaviour seems vulgar, ugly or weird. These things are irrelevant to being a happy and functional person. They only effect our sensibilities, not our actual livelihood and potential for joy. Accept yourself and it will become easier and easier to accept others. If something really bothers you about another person, perhaps there is something valuable in that experience that you can learn and will sheds more light on the way you think and feel about yourself. Because people have been forced into confinement in their boxes for so long, its no wonder that there is a lot of experimentation, curiosity and confusion right now. Let it be. Through this process people will learn to understand who they are and will be empowered to live in a way that is congruent with their spirit and nature.


And im requoting these posts because they were perfect and said a lot of what i wanted to say

I think it's pretty awesome: I get to vote, I am not relegated to housewifery and baby making, there are enormous opportunities for employment--I could be a doctor, an astronaut, even join the military if that's what my heart desired, spousal abuse and rape are a crime (for the sick bastards that partake), I can make choices regarding my own reproduction and health---but I guess you two don't believe women should be afforded these things?

Please define acting like a man--does it mean holding down a full time job, voting, being financially independent, or wearing carharts and spitting and swearing? What exactly is your problem with it? What is natural and beautiful that is lost? Subservience? Because I'm a feminist and I think my relationship with my boyfriend is natural and beautiful-- it's not like I refuse to cook and clean for him (he does the same) and I'm not incapable of collaboration and respect because I think women should have equal rights... I'm not making him bathe in my sacred menstrual blood if that is what you mean..lol

in my opinion feminism is about choice and freedom. if you want to live as women did 50 years ago and carry on the traditions of your mother and grandmother, you should be able to do that. and if you want to , as you put it, act like a man, you should be able to do that too. i think human beings are far too varied to be forced into a few specific set of lifestyles, and society as a whole should strive to accomodate their differences to whatever extent is reasonable. people (all people, regardless of their sex) should be able to live a life reflective of their true needs, and not pressured into something completely alien to their true nature just to find acceptance in the group.

yes, it can be distruptive to traditional values, but overall feminism serves an important purpose - highlighting the fact that women are not presently perceived as equals to males and that this does have a huge and often unacknowledged negative affect on their lives, and society as a whole. besides, at its heart, feminism is not about invalidating the traditional positions of males and females in society, but broadening them, so that they are truly reflective of society as it actually is, and not how it is percieved to be or how it used to be. basically it aims to bring social values more in line with the truth of modern women, so that women have a choice about how we want to live. it is really about empowering women and cutting off unnecessary cultural ties to the past, not making a mockery of deeply ingrained cultural values.
forgive me, i'm rambling. i think this is an important topic though and one that warrants further discussion. basically, yeah I support it. it's a step in the right direction.

 

[acd]

I don't know about others, but I don't feel threatened by anyone. You have every right to express yourself as you want, curse, spit, and act as loud and dominant as you want, and I have every right to call such behavior unnatural for a woman.
Anyway, I believe you are somewhat personalizing this subject. I'm not talking about you specifically, I'm talking about society as a whole.

You are confusing unnatural with cultural.
The traits you associate with each gender are not a biological fact.

You do have the right to be offended at whatever offends you, but it's not realistic to claim that what offends you is unnatural based on how you feel about it.

 

[IrenaShav]

You are confusing unnatural with cultural.
The traits you associate with each gender are not a biological fact.

You do have the right to be offended at whatever offends you, but it's not realistic to claim that what offends you is unnatural based on how you feel about it.

You should really take some more effort to read what I said. I did not say that it offends me. I think that you don't really understand what I was writing here, you're just trying to put me into a category and then proudly repeatedly assert your feministic opinion about what I didn't say.

 

[IrenaShav]

Here's how men used to look like. Hardly masculine fashion by today's mainstream beauty standards. It is always changing to some degree... So what's the deal with this femininity/masculinity? Society says such and such trait belongs to a man or woman. I think it is bullshit. Who has the monopoly on these traits? I took something from my dad and something from my mom, plus upbringing blah blah blah Why to be a cookie-cutter version of a whoever? It would only create neuroses, I believe. If it feels completely unnatural to be passive, sit and obey?! :S Just like it feels unnatural to the others to be active. I don't see the problem as long as two live in harmony.
Idk how is it like where you live, OP, but I see different men and women around me from ultra-feminine to a butch, from a macho guy to a very "girly"(?) boy. I'm fine with it, it is the variety and hardly boring. Spitting isn't attractive on anyone, imo.

Lol are you serious? This picture is showing a historic fashion trend popular among nobility in some western countries. It is actually funny if you believe that all men from that time used to look like that.

 

[Azazel]

Lol are you serious? This picture is showing a historic fashion trend popular among nobility in some western countries. It is actually funny if you believe that all men from that time used to look like that.

Irena Irena... totally missing the point. I like it how you didn't comment on anything else. I get the feeling everyone has their point of view and their vision and we simply don't move anywhere right now. If you like 40s/5os fashion – fine, wear it! You want raw male energy then find a man with raw male energy. But that other sensitive guy who doesn't try too hard might find a woman too. People have different tastes when it comes to personalities and looks too.