Feminism

[Faye]

This one actually really pissed me off. Having been a victim of this awful crime, I *still* can't help but roll my eyes at this woman. Isn't "don't rape" kind of the law? Is anyone actively going out and teaching people *to* rape? Nothing wrong with knowing how to protect oneself from an unseen attacker. It's smart to educate women (or anyone!) on how to defend themselves. This to me is just like saying I shouldn't have to wear my seatbelt because other people should just stop being shitty drivers. Are there really people who don't know that rape is bad? Yes, there are people who do it anyway, but not because they don't know better-it's because they don't care, and no course on not raping people is going to sway them.

I can see the need for a "don't rape" course in obscure places, where rape is the norm. But it's not socially acceptable in the first world, and it's a no-brainer that if you do it and get caught, you'll basically get eye-for-eye treatment in prison.

I'm sorry to hear that happened to you.


There is a very distinctive mindset between focusing on the perpetrator and focusing on the victim. Sure you should teach women (or in some cases men) self-defense, but I do think that the mindset in many places in the first world is still decidedly not first world, that they still blame the victim basically.

They basically think/act like it is normal (and I guess it is now) to go around having sex, and if you aren't clear and careful about specifying your refusal and end up getting assaulted while you're too drunk, then that is your fault. And a lot of college guys seem to think that way too. The way it should be is that people should not be expecting to have sex without being sure that the person is entirely consensual, and that means not just getting her drunk.

And I know people have debated me before saying that it is a woman's right to get drunk, do it, and regret it later if she wants to. To me that still sounds like blaming the victim, and even if they don't want to call it rape, it still is in a way.

You can't give informed consent if you're drunk, and the fact that everyone thinks you can is a problem. People will tell me that "Well, some girls are just sluts man", and sure maybe some of them are very promiscuous, but the problem is that every horny drunk idiot out there likes to believe that every girl is that way. I think it is unethical to have sex with someone who is drunk (who has been binging). So yes, we should, in the freshman orientation classes, specify that you can't give informed consent when you're drunk. Because that is how legal reality works as well. They could wake up, decide they want to accuse you of rape, and you're in trouble regardless of what was said the night before.

I'm pretty sure that most people do not know that this is how the law works. Popular culture definitely doesn't know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informed_consent

 

[acd]

I agree with youhemmein that a lot of people aren't taking it seriously. Feminism is still needed I think. This is the best I've seen:

They really need this in some other countries.

There are still a lot if oppressive and sexist messages embedded in first world societies...
the reason for that is that sexist or oppressive ideas still exist. The way a lot of people regard rape is one of them.
There is still a blame the victim mentality. This doesn't serve men either, as men can also be victims of sexual assault, but there are a different set of expectations for men which make it extremely difficult for them to even come to grips with being assaulted let alone being taken seriously by their communities and the authorities.. As a feminist, these are things that I think matter and should change.

 

[Apone]

You can't give informed consent if you're drunk, and the fact that everyone thinks you can is a problem. People will tell me that "Well, some girls are just sluts man", and sure maybe some of them are very promiscuous, but the problem is that every horny drunk idiot out there likes to believe that every girl is that way. I think it is unethical to have sex with someone who is drunk (who has been binging). So yes, we should, in the freshman orientation classes, specify that you can't give informed consent when you're drunk. Because that is how legal reality works as well. They could wake up, decide they want to accuse you of rape, and you're in trouble regardless of what was said the night before.

If they're both drunk, then aren't they raping each other? And if they're raping each other, then shouldn't they both go to prison?

 

[bamf]

I'm sorry to hear that happened to you.


There is a very distinctive mindset between focusing on the perpetrator and focusing on the victim. Sure you should teach women (or in some cases men) self-defense, but I do think that the mindset in many places in the first world is still decidedly not first world, that they still blame the victim basically.

They basically think/act like it is normal (and I guess it is now) to go around having sex, and if you aren't clear and careful about specifying your refusal and end up getting assaulted while you're too drunk, then that is your fault. And a lot of college guys seem to think that way too. The way it should be is that people should not be expecting to have sex without being sure that the person is entirely consensual, and that means not just getting her drunk.

And I know people have debated me before saying that it is a woman's right to get drunk, do it, and regret it later if she wants to. To me that still sounds like blaming the victim, and even if they don't want to call it rape, it still is in a way.

You can't give informed consent if you're drunk, and the fact that everyone thinks you can is a problem. People will tell me that "Well, some girls are just sluts man", and sure maybe some of them are very promiscuous, but the problem is that every horny drunk idiot out there likes to believe that every girl is that way. I think it is unethical to have sex with someone who is drunk (who has been binging). So yes, we should, in the freshman orientation classes, specify that you can't give informed consent when you're drunk. Because that is how legal reality works as well. They could wake up, decide they want to accuse you of rape, and you're in trouble regardless of what was said the night before.

I'm pretty sure that most people do not know that this is how the law works. Popular culture definitely doesn't know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informed_consent

This, times a bajillion trillion million. A lot of people really do not know what consent entails, and yes, we should be teaching that.

If they're both drunk, then aren't they raping each other? And if they're raping each other, then shouldn't they both go to prison?

Depends on levels of intoxication and intent. It can be incredibly messy, which is why teaching people what consent really means is important.

 

[MrDoobie]

[MENTION=1857]youhemmein[/MENTION]

I am truly sorry for what happened to you, but I am afraid you missed the point.

Rape is possibly the only crime in the first world to have an extensive and problematic level of victim-blaming. Off the top of my head, I can't really think of another crime where it is as common to try and at least partially blame the victim, such as, what were they wearing, they shouldn't have gone to that party, they shouldn't have been walking alone, etc.

Self defense is great and all, but it can only go so far, y'know? Especially when you consider that most rape is perpetrated by someone the victim knows. Not only that, but a lot of rape defense lessons give advice that in practice are ridiculous. Sometimes you just CAN'T always keep an eye on your drink. Sometimes you just CAN'T help but walk home alone. There's being safe, and then there's paranoia. And as others have said, everyone does know that rape is frowned upon in our society. The problem is, not everyone quite understands exactly what rape is. A good deal of people who have raped someone, especially if it was date rape, are not aware that what they did was rape.

Furthermore, I would suggest you read modern feminist thought and literature, and you will see why feminism is still a needed cultural presence. Yes, we legally have the same rights, but the problem, just like in the case of modern race power and LGBTQ power movements, is often cultural and media representations, legal issues, and hetero, white, patriarchy.

There are a lot of feminists whose asses are equally chapped by the judicial system, particularly their treatment of men in custody and domestic cases. However, feminism is not to blame, rather it is more likely the legacy of patriarchal gender roles.

Furthermore, and this goes [MENTION=5559]Cornerstone[/MENTION] as well, I am skeptical of the idea that there are any fundamental differences between men and women, that women are "naturally" more nurturing and men are "naturally" stronger or whatever. For the most part, claims such as these are either unable to be proven or difficult to prove, and even in areas of differences in body function it is not quite so clear cut. For example, women do get drunker faster, but they also have higher pain tolerance than men.

 

[the]

Furthermore, and this goes @Cornerstone as well, I am skeptical of the idea that there are any fundamental differences between men and women, that women are "naturally" more nurturing and 1. men are "naturally" stronger or whatever. For the most part, claims such as these are either unable to be proven or difficult to prove, and even in areas of differences in body function it is not quite so clear cut. For example, women do get drunker faster, but 2. they also have higher pain tolerance than men.

1. This seems self evidently true. I think it is backed up statistically that the strongest man is stronger than the strongest woman and that the average man is stronger than the average woman.

2. So I thought there were no fundamental differences? /rhetorical question - even seems to prove point 1!

 

[youhemmein]

I actually have only heard rumor of victim-blaming and never heard it myself or even second-hand when it comes to rape. It's like this phantom thing that exists but only when no one is looking. Sure, it happens. Everything happens. Is it common? I'm skeptical. At any rate, I see absolutely no issue with teaching self-defense, because it isn't victim-blaming, it's empowering and educating. I would take issue with being blamed for what someone else chose to do, but in the last 3 years, that has never once happened. And the people I've met with similar experiences have also gotten nothing short of compassion and support during their healing period (which truly never ends).

The bottom line for me is that when you don't take obvious precautions, anything can happen. You could get mugged, shot, doped, killed, etc. Rape is just one of many violent crimes with precautions that can be taken to diminish the chances of it happening. That's not to say it is the victim's *fault*, and that's where I think people go wrong. If we go back to the seatbelt scenario, if I don't wear a seatbelt, is it my fault if someone hits me? No. But I stand a lot less of a chance to walk away from it if I ignore the obvious SAFETY precautions. Just because something is wrong and shouldn't be done is no excuse to be careless and assume the outcome is completely up to them. And for the record, I am in NO way whatsoever talking about how a woman dresses, if that wasn't clear enough.

Again, this is my opinion based on my experience. No one has to like it or agree with it. But until I see some sort of real-life evidence to support a different opinion, I don't plan to change it. And I'm a-ok with the fact that it may not be the most popular.

(For the record, I never blamed feminism for the often unjust judicial system. I simply pointed out a double-standard.)

And I don't believe in power-movements of any sort. There is no equality in power-movements.

 

[Matt3737]

I think an alternate issue is being conflated when people acknowledge risky behavior as a contributing factor in a rape. Risk management is not a judgment or an excuse.

Consider a father who reprimands his teenage daughter for dressing provocatively and staying out past curfew while walking home alone. She has done nothing wrong per se, but it increases her risk of an incident occuring. If an incident were to occur, she still would not be responsible or blamed as such, but it may be said that she statistically increased the chances of that happening. It does indeed seem to be partial blame, because of a perceived causal relationship, but it is only the perception of such. They are separate, simultaneously occuring incidents. She is at fault for increasing a risk probability (in the same manner as if nothing had happened and yet her father still reprimanded her for her behavior) and the perpetrator is fully at fault for an illegal activity.

 

[MrDoobie]

1. This seems self evidently true. I think it is backed up statistically that the strongest man is stronger than the strongest woman and that the average man is stronger than the average woman.

2. So I thought there were no fundamental differences? /rhetorical question - even seems to prove point 1!

Well, the problem is what do those statistics mean? Does it mean that men are "naturally" stronger? Or that society is more open and supportive of strong men and so facilitates their development both quantitatively and qualitatively?

Furthermore, what was the criteria of this "test"? How did they define "strength"? What is the meaning of strength?

Also, I derped on my wording. What I meant is that I do not believe there is any strong evidence to support the existence of any "natural" differences in gender when it comes to broad concepts such as strength or sensitivity.

I actually have only heard rumor of victim-blaming and never heard it myself or even second-hand when it comes to rape.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Lawyer-likens-gang-rape-victim-to-a-spider-luring-4071735.php

At any rate, I see absolutely no issue with teaching self-defense, because it isn't victim-blaming, it's empowering and educating.

That isn't the issue. Please read my post again.

And the people I've met with similar experiences have also gotten nothing short of compassion and support during their healing period (which truly never ends).

I think it is wonderful that you are surrounded by supportive and compassionate people. However, keep in mind that it IS situational, and, while I do not know about the particulars of your situation neither do I need to know, I can tell you I have known of at least one person whose rape was a more delicate matter. Intoxicants were involved, partying was involved, and the doubt and shame she experienced from people afterwards really hurt her.

And I don't believe in power-movements of any sort. There is no equality in power-movements.

I disagree. Power movements are... well.... empowering to disenfranchised or minority groups. For example, I consider myself an active member of the queer power movement. Through this we are not faggots. We are FAGGOTS.

Similarly black power can take you from being a nigger, to being a nigga. Dig?

 

[Hakim]

Advocating gender equality seems improbable since we live in a society that has already accepted a capitalistic and patriarchal society.

 

[Apone]

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Lawyer-likens-gang-rape-victim-to-a-spider-luring-4071735.php

They're lawyers trying to win a case-- I'm not sure what you expect-- are they just supposed to say, 'Your honor, you're absolutely right-- my clients belong in jail and I think that you should give them the maximum possible sentence'? I'm sure that most people who read that story are probably thinking that it's absolutely unforgivable that someone would do that to an 11 year old girl.

 

[Apone]

Depends on levels of intoxication and intent. It can be incredibly messy, which is why teaching people what consent really means is important.

Freshman orientation is godawful... I think they should stop having it, actually. I lasted about 2 days at mine and then I walked away, found some new buds, and we got high and listened to music together. I think my breaking point was when they had us watching these 5 girls try to put a condom on a banana with their mouth... one girl took the thing and shoved it all the way down her throat, and everyone burst into drunken applause. It wasn't too hard for me to imagine where the whole thing was headed...

I really don't think the people who were applauding that shit would actually listen to someone telling them not to rape people... the fact of the matter is that the guys who probably are going to rape you still don't see themselves as rapists or don't want to hear it.

But the prospect of being raped is scary for women so 'how to not get raped' actually does make sense on that level. It is important to be aware of your rights though... but yeah, the fact that we're talking about things that tend to happen in private does make them hard to prove... and throw alcohol into the mix and you've got a pretty decent degree of deniability.

Maybe it's not 'fair', but in some ways it is the more practical solution. To be honest, I think it would be best if alcoholism in general were less tolerated-- it leads to bad things, and these are supposed to be learning institutions, after all.

 

[MrDoobie]

They're lawyers trying to win a case-- I'm not sure what you expect-- are they just supposed to say, 'Your honor, you're absolutely right-- my clients belong in jail and I think that you should give them the maximum possible sentence'? I'm sure that most people who read that story are probably thinking that it's absolutely unforgivable that someone would do that to an 11 year old girl.

I dunno. Anything but that? My client was insane, the other guys pressured him, etc? There are plenty of other bullshit excuses besides "an 11 year old girl seduced my client into brutally gangraping her".

And, yes, people do see through that bullshit. But the fact is that it happened in the first place. Could you imagine a mugging where the defense said 'my client was coerced into robbing this person by the victim acting so robbable'? It's a little bit harder to see that happening in a case of violent crime that isn't rape.

I really don't think the people who were applauding that shit would actually listen to someone telling them not to rape people... the fact of the matter is that the guys who probably are going to rape you still don't see themselves as rapists or don't want to hear it.

I would like to imagine that most people are actually decent and would respect boundaries if only they knew what the boundaries were. The problem that feminists have with victim-focused rape prevention isn't that women are being taught to protect themselves, but that it is taught over the meaning of consent.

But the prospect of being raped is scary for women

I dunno about you, but the prospect of being raped is pretty scary to me, too. I think most people are pretty afraid of rape.

 

[Apone]

And, yes, people do see through that bullshit. But the fact is that it happened in the first place. Could you imagine a mugging where the defense said 'my client was coerced into robbing this person by the victim acting so robbable'? It's a little bit harder to see that happening in a case of violent crime that isn't rape.

You can't compare rape to mugging, mostly because people tend not to agree to things like giving large amounts of money to scary people that they don't even know. But plenty of people have sex with their S.O.s, friends, people they know only a little, or even with people that they don't know at all… so history is relevant if you're going to find someone guilty. The history of the defendant is also relevant… and I'm sure that it was emphasized as well.

I would like to imagine that most people are actually decent and would respect boundaries if only they knew what the boundaries were. The problem that feminists have with victim-focused rape prevention isn't that women are being taught to protect themselves, but that it is taught over the meaning of consent.

I don't agree with this at all. 'No means no' was extremely prevalent when I was growing up-- pretty much from grade 6 onwards… and that campaign targeted men almost exclusively. I don't know where you grew up, but that was my experience… the problem is that people aren't robots so they don't always follow the rules. And I don't see how it's so different from 'don't walk past the crack houses at midnight'. There are a lot of 'don't do drugs' PSAs and people still smoke heaps and heaps of crack. If someone doesn't even know that they're raping someone else, do you really think that they're a good listener? Or that they enjoy following the rules and doing things that other people tell them to do?

I dunno about you, but the prospect of being raped is pretty scary to me, too. I think most people are pretty afraid of rape.

I would say that most straight adult men don't really think that they could ever be a victim of rape.

 

[dudemanbro]

basically women have wombs that give birth and that is very special because there would be no babies without them. women should be loved, cherished.

men protect the women and provide for them and that is very special because there would be no babies without them. men should be loved, cherished.

babies are the future and should be nourished and loved, cherished.

duh?

fuck "rights" and guidelines.

how about parties where everyone gets really stoned on some mind bending drug and the parties "get out of hand" on a regular basis? the children resulting from these orgiastic rhythmic ceremonies would not be "this is my child." instead people may say, "these are our children."

yeah, society. i dunno its 5:30 a, and i just wooe up to post this. now i am going back to sleep.

 

[dudemanbro]

basically women have wombs that give birth and that is very special because there would be no babies without them. women should be loved, cherished.

men protect the women and provide for them and that is very special because there would be no babies without them. men should be loved, cherished.

babies are the future and should be nourished and loved, cherished.

duh?

fuck "rights" and guidelines.

how about parties where everyone gets really stoned on some mind bending drug and the parties "get out of hand" on a regular basis? the children resulting from these orgiastic rhythmic ceremonies would not be "this is my child." instead people may say, "these are our children."

yeah, society. i dunno its 5:30 a, and i just wooe up to post this. now i am going back to sleep.

 

[Faye]

If they're both drunk, then aren't they raping each other? And if they're raping each other, then shouldn't they both go to prison?

No, a person is still responsible for their actions if they are drunk. So I can see your point about how it would turn into a messy he-said-she-said affair if they both decided to accuse each other, or if it is a homosexual case, it'd be even more confusing because then they can't side with one party so easily.

I know with minors, they prosecute the youngest one, but I am not sure how they would handle it. They would probably just blame the guy.

That being said, I have known a guy friend who was raped by a woman while they were both drunk. No, he never reported it or anything.

 

[Azazel]

Women and men are different on the physical level, we can't deny it. A man is also physically stronger naturally, has more muscle mass as a rule, women have more fat. I generalize there. It should be irrelevant. We're not trying to prove who's superior here, do we? When it comes to the psychological aspect I fail to see the gender differences. Yes, I do and there is a personal reason for that for me. Girls aren't usually denied their tears while growing up and not discouraged to show their emotions. But please, let's not forget that it isn't always the case! There are also women who grew up under "man up!" motto and there are men who cry freely (yes, I met them).
And what about bigender people? It is the reason why I can't differentiate betwen "psychological" gender, if you know what I mean.
As someone who escaped two rape attempts in the past I can say this: I was fully dressed from top to bottom, it was winter, so you can guess how "sexy" my outfit was.
I haven't told anyone because I lived in the area where victim-blaming is in full force and it is a difficult place to be. First world or not, the right mindset of the people is the key... Maybe they should be "brainwashed" with a truthful positive message(?) Once you lived somewhere where you were treated as a subject and not a human being then you'd be shitless scared to see something like that happening in another country.
Ok, it was my blabbering on the subject.

 

[linger]

This is shorter than I'd really like because I'm on my phone (so forgive my brevity and typos).

RE: Rape--There are definitely cultures on some college campuses where rape is okay. It's not encouraged, but there is definitely a level of questioning of the victim that makes it intimidating, demeaning, and horribly unpleasant to try to accuse someone. I know this isn't true everywhere, but the processes in place meant to protect the accused from wrongly being convicted before someone gets to the police stage makes it harder for victims to do anything. I don't think it's a women/men problem. It's a rape culture problem. (Please understand that I'm not suggesting colleges encourage rape directly, only that their responses to claims and. incidents implicitly suggests that rape is ultimately not a big deal.)

RE: Feminism -- [MENTION=2578]Kgal[/MENTION] wins. Other groups and individuals claim the word feminism, but that is bullshit. Equality, by definition, would preclude any notions that men are/should be lesser than women. The connotations associated with the word thought, have erased the denotation and it's impossible now to claim feminism without saying "but not the kind that hates men." That pisses me off. There always used to be a point in my class where I would ask my students who thought women should have equal rights in society; everyone would raise their hands. I would ask who among them was a feminist; a few ladies would raise their hands. I would have them look up the definition and their minds would be temporarily blown. Unfortunately when I'd ask about feminism again, it still wouldn't stick with everyone That's how overwhelming the image is.

(And for what it's worth, I've met lots of those women. They exist. They are just as screwed up in the head as anyone else who denies equal rights/humanity to any person--and that, I admit, is a judgement on my part. I own it.)

 

[MrDoobie]

You can't compare rape to mugging, mostly because people tend not to agree to things like giving large amounts of money to scary people that they don't even know. But plenty of people have sex with their S.O.s, friends, people they know only a little, or even with people that they don't know at all… so history is relevant if you're going to find someone guilty. The history of the defendant is also relevant… and I'm sure that it was emphasized as well.

Most people tend not to agree on waking up naked in the dark corner of some parking garage with no knowledge of what happened last night.

And no, the history of neither the defendant or the prosecutor is relevant. It doesn't matter who or what you may or may not have slept with in the past, even if it was with the defendant, and it doesn't matter if you were a boy scout leader or a slavering creepazoid who may have a prior record. What is on trial is whether or not a rape occurred.

Just like if I did make it a habit to hand out large amounts of money to big, scary guys, that would be irrelevant if I ever got mugged.

I don't agree with this at all. 'No means no' was extremely prevalent when I was growing up-- pretty much from grade 6 onwards… and that campaign targeted men almost exclusively.

#1 - The problem with "no means no" campaigns is that consent isn't decided by the absence of a "no". It's decided by the absence of a "yes".

#2 - I would be curious as to the rate of sexual assault in that area compared to national averages and/or the rate on campuses without such programs.

If someone doesn't even know that they're raping someone else, do you really think that they're a good listener? Or that they enjoy following the rules and doing things that other people tell them to do?

There was a pretty big deal Reddit thread where someone was asking for the perception of rapists. I will grant you, there were a lot of feminists who (understandably) huffed and puffed over the idea that someone thought a rapists PoV was valuable and important, but I think it is (I've read "The Art of War" ^_^)

Anyway, one thing that kept sticking out to me was the guys who didn't see what they did as rape, and that were clearly confused as to the nature of consent or how to appropriately get consent.

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/x6yef/reddits_had_a_few_threads_about_sexual_assault/ (trigger warning)