T
The Jester
It affects the social image.
To order to create order in society, you must be able to generalise.
French Burka Ban Goes into Effect
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It affects the social image.
To order to create order in society, you must be able to generalise.
Which is a very subjective measure.
If the social image must be absent of any Islamic influence, then let me be the first to shout "Islamophobia!"
This is hard for me to believe. Did you just generalize burqa-wearing women as criminals? Please don't be offended, I'm asking because I'm confused about what you meant.
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In countries where women are kept in veils, men have the say and women are oppressed. The two go hand in hand, and there is no doubt about it. Chances are that she has been cut as well, at least in many countries.
No, these women are not capable of informed consent because they are from cultures that treat women as livestock. These women often will even think of themselves as lesser than men.
Multiculturalism is absurd, and there is no reason why westerners should allow this sexism to prosper in their countries. Even if these women are capable of giving 'informed consent', in the same way that many teenage girls in Uganda and similar places voluntarily (and often excitedly) their clitoris and other parts removed so that they may be 'pure' for their husbands, their supposed 'informed consent' should not be accepted.
Westerners in this debate assume that these women are free thinkers like western women, but they are not. All the supposed solidarity between feminists and these women really only works to further oppress these women in a new country. Nobody is such a free thinker as we would like to assume, and really conflict is the only option. I have no qualms saying that the way women are treated in the United States and France is much better than the way they are treated in many other countries where burkas are prevalent, and I think that such western treatment of women should certainly be enforced in western countries.
No, these women are not capable of informed consent because they are from cultures that treat women as livestock. These women often will even think of themselves as lesser than men.
Multiculturalism is absurd, and there is no reason why westerners should allow this sexism to prosper in their countries. Even if these women are capable of giving 'informed consent', in the same way that many teenage girls in Uganda and similar places voluntarily (and often excitedly) their clitoris and other parts removed so that they may be 'pure' for their husbands, their supposed 'informed consent' should not be accepted.
Westerners in this debate assume that these women are free thinkers like western women, but they are not. All the supposed solidarity between feminists and these women really only works to further oppress these women in a new country. Nobody is such a free thinker as we would like to assume, and really conflict is the only option. I have no qualms saying that the way women are treated in the United States and France is much better than the way they are treated in many other countries where burkas are prevalent, and I think that such western treatment of women should certainly be enforced in western countries.
T
The Jester
It is very subjective, but laws are based on subjective things.
E.g. There wasn't a law against crime X up until recently.
This doesn't mean that the crime didn't exist before, but it means that society at one point decides it's important enough to criminalize.
I'm not offended, but I find it somewhat strange that you make that comment.
Especially in the light of this quote:
I thought it was pretty clear that you could not generalise such a thing.
It's like banning kitchen knives because they can be used to stab people.
I just thought it was a noteworthy example I had read, totally not something that supports my argument against or in favour of the burqa-ban.
That is true. In fact, I'll bring up my previous analogy here: destructive and constructive. For example, if X is proving to be destructive to society, then it may be banned, given that all perspectives and points of view are considered. It is possible that a certain non-destructive act is being banned because insufficient points-of-view are being considered, or only a certain perspective of the situation which makes it look worse is solely being considered. To avoid this, it is important to consider all perspectives with equal weight and then make a decision.
In cases such as this one, it seems the Muslim perspective is being ignored.
[*I define destruction as leading towards conflict, divisions, disharmony, and such, whereas constructive as the opposite of that.]
Yes, that's why it confused me. Thank you for clearing up your position.
Moral arrogance, much?
T
The Jester
It's true, but I guess in can understand why they chose to ignore the Muslim perspective.
After all, the Muslims are a minority in France.
(According to this site, it's estimated that 2.7% of the people in Europe are muslim:
http://www.pewforum.org/The-Future-of-the-Global-Muslim-Population.aspx?print=true)
(I don't know if their statements are valid.)
I don't think it's possible to take all perspectives into account.
Education might help people to look at things from all different kind of perspectives though. But education isn't norm-free.
And I guess it's normal to judge people. It makes social interaction easier.
I feel as if I've written a load of incoherent shit here.
How do you know it was ignored. Maybe in this case this particular perspective was taken into account and rejected as sexist, oppressive, and inconsistent with western values, culture, and sensitivities. I've always found a completely veiled person to be grotesque, yet consistent with the extremes of some parts of the islamic world where "adulterers" are stoned to death, thieves' hands are chopped off, and the clitorises of little girls are mutilated. But, hey, maybe I'm just not multicultural enough to countenance such horrors.
Oranguh
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-.^? aggressive much?
If only we lived in the times of the Maya where mass sacrifices were the norm simply because the nobles willed it. Times where it was even considered an honour to be sacrificed to the Gods.
All things relative, but in the end, we're all human. There are no horrors, no good, nor bad, only Fe.
T
The Jester
I really suck with cognitive functions and all, but I laughed with this.
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yeah, that happens here too... maybe not as obvious and on such a grand scale...but in more covert ways....and it's still the status quo for most of the world.
Trifoilum
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I agreed. One thing or another, burqa like another fashion choices is one's personal choice, biased as it is, and should be respected as such, IMO. Yet..
On the other hand, I also agreed on this. In one way of looking, it isn't hard to judge Islamic culture and values as misogynistic or domineering or patronizing on females. And it's one thing to wear something just because it looks good, and another to wear something as a sign of attraction, and another level altogether for espousing a culture / belief. Most women wearing burqa tend to fall, consciously or not, on the third group altogether.Dragon said:
But this looks like suppressing their voices further. Thus I disagreed with Dragon's conclusion; forcing them to follow Western way of thinking without proper preparation does nothing unlike forcing a beginner to enter the Olympics. What happens is they are humiliated, badly; left struck cold in an unforgiving world, stripped from the protection they have, with the old beliefs they still have (and if I weren't mistaken, Islamic culture about other men aside from the woman's family / husband weren't exactly good either?) Does suppressing their voices further is the cure? It looks more of a hasty bandage applied to a gushing wound. And with an understanding of Muslim being the minority in France, it isn't hard to look at it that way.
And what about the preparation? The further steps to the so-called assimilation of the Muslim? If the French government hadn't done anything to improve religious tolerance, or to ensure safety for Muslim women, or to instill a sense of both towards the mentality of French people, and planning to do nothing but further enforcing the rule.....then the rule looks more endangering than enlightening.
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How does banning the burka change that?
Now for those who do not have choice, they will have their fathers, brothers, husbands and sons telling them they must do X, and their government telling them they can't do X... they still do not have choice, they are still oppressed. And the most alarming thought is that these women who are not allowed to choose how to live will simply be unable to leave their house now.
Nope. Just reality, in certain parts of the world.
What? You really believe this? Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong Il, Qaddafi, Idi Amin, etc., etc., etc. were "not good, nor bad?"
Sometimes, amorality is as bad as immorality.
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I'd ultimately have agree with trifolium and lurker. I think that dragon's ideals are good, but I think that the ban will not necessarily aid the plight of those who it affects.
I don't see how the ban is going to contribute to the empowering these women to think freely in the sense of gaining rights. It's not as though they've been given any more of a choice, they're just being forced in the opposite direction by a government.
I don't see how the ban is going to contribute to the empowering these women to think freely in the sense of gaining rights. It's not as though they've been given any more of a choice, they're just being forced in the opposite direction by a government.
Sometimes, it is the responsibility, indeed mandate, of a government to counter the forces of oppression. There is a tremendous difference between seeing the world clearly, and seeing everything through a narrow slit in cloth. Remove the instrument of oppression and you remove the oppression. Lifting the veil opens the eyes to a greater world and clarifies one's vision of self.
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That's very idealist.
Do you believe that oppression of these women comes down to wearing a burka? Because it seems clear to me that the oppression, when it happens, is total. Banning those who are oppressed from leaving their house does not assist them, the view through a narrow slit in cloth is greater than the view from inside one's house. If removing oppression of Islamic women is the aim of the French government (which I doubt it is) then education and providing options is a more effective approach, if stamping out Muslims with more extreme views is the aim, why target the women?
The bottom line is this does not help the 2,000 or so Muslim women in France who currently wear a burka, in reality, they are the ones most hurt.