French Burka Ban Goes into Effect

[Sloe Djinn]

Sometimes, it is the responsibility, indeed mandate, of a government to counter the forces of oppression. There is a tremendous difference between seeing the world clearly, and seeing everything through a narrow slit in cloth. Remove the instrument of oppression and you remove the oppression. Lifting the veil opens the eyes to a greater world and clarifies one's vision of self.

I think I see what you're saying [MENTION=1678]Norton[/MENTION], I just am wary of the idea of using oppression in order to remove the instrument of oppression in order to remove oppression.

This was interesting to me and I agree with what I bolded:

While French women face the fines and

 

[sweetea]

That's very idealist.

Do you believe that oppression of these women comes down to wearing a burka? Because it seems clear to me that the oppression, when it happens, is total. Banning those who are oppressed from leaving their house does not assist them, the view through a narrow slit in cloth is greater than the view from inside one's house. .

Exactly. Her husband doesn't now say "oh gee, look at my lovely wife going around in public like that...getting oogled by men... without her burka...looking so westernised. I just wanna treat her as an equal now. My eyes have been opened, thank you France!"

He'll probably want to oppress her even more and not allow her to leave the home.

 

[bronson_]

Multiculturalism is absurd, and there is no reason why westerners should allow this sexism to prosper in their countries. Even if these women are capable of giving 'informed consent', in the same way that many teenage girls in Uganda and similar places voluntarily (and often excitedly) their clitoris and other parts removed so that they may be 'pure' for their husbands, their supposed 'informed consent' should not be accepted.

This is the answer. All you have to do is see what history has taught us or what basic analysis has shown us. The west continues to embrace this insane ideology, and now they're reaping what they've sown. It's hilarious that many put so much emphasis on respect for the local culture while travelling, but then refuse to put the same emphasis on immigrants to their own society, out of fear for appearing "racist" or "xenophobic."

Immigration is not the problem, the problem is insufficiently assimilating the newcomers. If you can't figure out how to, then don't let them in.

The Japanese are still "racist" and "xenophobic" by western standards, but still have a healthier society in many respects, as evidenced by the huge amount of social capital they enjoy.

 

[sweetea]

While French women face the fines and

 

[slant]

I'm just glad it's not my country.

 

[Lurker]

Meh. All that means to the hardcore Muslim male is: "move from France" or "don't move to France"

Doesn't that seem like part of the aim, though?

 

[Trifoilum]

Remove the instrument of oppression and you remove the oppression. Lifting the veil opens the eyes to a greater world and clarifies one's vision of self.

....
That is very idealistic on paper, but in reality, wouldn't the removal of one instrument only serves as a purpose to tighten the knot harder, under the name of safety?

 

[Arsal]

How do you know it was ignored. Maybe in this case this particular perspective was taken into account and rejected as sexist, oppressive, and inconsistent with western values, culture, and sensitivities.

Which would mean it wasn't given equal weight.

Forcing away the right to wear a burqa is just as bad as forcing someone to wear a burqa.

It's moral arrogance at its worst. "We know what's good for you! Let us dictate how you must live your lives!"

Blah.

*exits*

 

[Arsal]

+1000
Yay!
This guy gets it!!

No, this guy agrees with you. There is nothing to "get".

Enjoy your collective elitism, however.

 

[Oranguh]

Nope. Just reality, in certain parts of the world.



What? You really believe this? Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong Il, Qaddafi, Idi Amin, etc., etc., etc. were "not good, nor bad?"

Sometimes, amorality is as bad as immorality.

All those "examples" you gave were of people who were convinced of their own version of justice, their own version of "good" their own version of "reality"....

Being caught up in your own illusions, being blinded by your own self righteous idea of what is "moral" and what is "immoral" is in my humble opinion the most destructive force. This is something the humans you have quoted have executed to the letter.

Do you believe that the people you have mentioned think that they themselves have done "bad"? On the contrary, Hitler thought he was making the world a better place. Who could blame him? Virtually his whole country agreed!

There are lessons to be learned here. Let us not be blinded by our values, our morals. Let's take things into a wider perspective and analyse the true virtue of good and evil. For the alternative may only lead to us running in vicious vicious circles.

 

[Firefly]

I think its disgusting that this has happened!

If she wants to wear the burka then she should be able to, it's no one else's buisness if that is her choice.

 

[88chaz88]

 

[Firefly]

I think that (if those two pictures are even of people within the same religion) the muslims of the UK might seem more religious here, because the UK is a non Muslim country, so they might feel the need to be more into their religion here.

 

[Arsal]

I think that (if those two pictures are even of people within the same religion) the muslims of the UK might seem more religious here, because the UK is a non Muslim country, so they might feel the need to be more into their religion here.

There is a lot of diversity of opinions within religion. There are varying degrees of open-mindedness within Muslims.

The picture of Lahore is right, this is how a lot of people dress in Pakistan and it's considered well within the norm. However, people wearing burkas is also within the norm, and those people exist by the dozen. I'm sure this is how it is for Muslims in other countries as well.

 

[88chaz88]

I think that (if those two pictures are even of people within the same religion) the muslims of the UK might seem more religious here, because the UK is a non Muslim country, so they might feel the need to be more into their religion here.

I think that something is clearly wrong. We're clearly too lenient on restrictions of freedom for Muslims. Whether this should be rectified by law though is a different matter...

I don't advocate the burqua ban (although private buildings and businesses should reserve the right to ban them on their premises, security risk and what-not) but I do believe there's a problem with how western countries are handling multiculturalism.

 

[Trifoilum]

There is a lot of diversity of opinions within religion. There are varying degrees of open-mindedness within Muslims.

The picture of Lahore is right, this is how a lot of people dress in Pakistan and it's considered well within the norm. However, people wearing burkas is also within the norm, and those people exist by the dozen. I'm sure this is how it is for Muslims in other countries as well.

As it is in Indonesia (at least within the Muslims);
Nooo, no hotpants or tanktops or miniskirts or even showing (upper) thighs, unless you're working on a specific type of profession or just plain reckless, but other than that there's quite a lot of normalcy I'm sure is not unlike the West.

ETA: Actually; I'd like to clarify; this seems to be changing as youth's concerned. Also, in the capital city, a lot seems to be tolerating the few existence of exposed legs and thighs, albeit the viewpoint of the wearer themselves is sometimes different.

I think it's the the same thing happening with other immigrants? I've heard the theory that immigrants are caught in a cycle of nostalgia of their old culture and resentment / cultural shock against their new culture, thus they defend themselves by tightening their cultural knots and 'embracing the traditional values' (or at least what's considered as 'traditional')

I think it's the same as Chinatown vs Beijing / Shanghai, or Irish-American vs actual Irish (I actually heard it in context of St. Patrick's Day)

 

[Firefly]

There is a lot of diversity of opinions within religion. There are varying degrees of open-mindedness within Muslims.

The picture of Lahore is right, this is how a lot of people dress in Pakistan and it's considered well within the norm. However, people wearing burkas is also within the norm, and those people exist by the dozen. I'm sure this is how it is for Muslims in other countries as well.

My thoughts were as we are a non Muslim country, people of other religions may cling onto their faith/culture more so, so as not to become too westernised. At least thats how its seemed to me with some of the Muslim women iv known.

 

[88chaz88]

My thoughts were as we are a non Muslim country, people of other religions may cling onto their faith/culture more so, so as not to become too westernised. At least thats how its seemed to me with some of the Muslim women iv known.

But shouldn't they be westernised? They are after all, choosing to live in a western country.

 

[Firefly]

I think that something is clearly wrong. We're clearly too lenient on restrictions of freedom for Muslims. Whether this should be rectified by law though is a different matter...

I don't advocate the burqua ban (although private buildings and businesses should reserve the right to ban them on their premises, security risk and what-not) but I do believe there's a problem with how western countries are handling multiculturalism.

I think thats a terrible thing to say
Everyone should be able to wear whatever they like, esp if its something that means so much to them.

 

[Trifoilum]

But shouldn't they be westernised? They are after all, choosing to live in a western country.

I humbly disagree.

While western multiculturalism might have failed (and I lack sufficient proof or data to back or refute it), I think the idea of tolerance and acculturation is essentially, great.

Because in my humblest opinion, that's what differs the Western culture from the rest of the world.