Game of Thrones (show)

[Sandie33]

I had the episode spoiled for me. I'm debating whether I want to watch or not.

I saw it... and apparently, i need extra therapy

I'm with ya @sassafras This weeks episode was a hard hit at my own sense of integrity and caused me to question a few things about myself because I could relate to why Daenerys made the choice she did. Loss can cause us to do hurtful things in the middle of our attempt to ensure the right things.

Idealistic crime of passion.

 

[Daustus]

Spoiler: 5 recap

Varys was right. They backed the wrong horse. Great episode, hard to watch. Daenerys you could have left the people alone and destoyed the keep, same effect. I get it, but damn girl. You're alone now. Jon's gonna ride North to protect his home, and Arya is gonna have a new name on her list. Predicting series close with Jon abandoning humanity and going to the wild north once it's all taken care of.

 

[acd]

I'm with ya @sassafras This weeks episode was a hard hit at my own sense of integrity and caused me to question a few things about myself because I could relate to why Daenerys made the choice she did. Loss can cause us to do hurtful things in the middle of our attempt to ensure the right things.

Idealistic crime of passion.

Spoiler: Why you reading this thread if you haven't watched the episode?

I was kinda thinking similar. But we had glimpses of it all throughout the seasons. She was just acting brutally to the bad guys.
How we cheered her in Meereen because she did it to the Masters in freeing the slaves. It's ok if it's the bad guys. But anyone willing and capable of burning alive and/or crucifying anyone, enemy or not is evil or unfit and capable of destroying the innocent.
She became what she claimed to want to overthrow. She's a tyrant.

Whoops! Forgot to add spoiler..

 

[Asa]

Spoiler: Go watch the show and then visit this thread.

I agree with @Daustus and @acd. Dany is as bad as Cersei now. It was predictable. Also, there is nothing left for her to rule. Hardly any people (and the survivors hate her) and no buildings left in King's Landing. The North isn't crazy about her, either. She is a tyrant.
I hope Varys got the word out.

What is up with Tyrion? He keeps making HUGE mistakes by ruling with his emotions and forgetting others don't share his sense of right and wrong. He must be deep in the grip. (LOL! Had to add that little MBTI joke.)

I'm not sure what is going to happen to Jon. He's done with Danaenerys. Dany may kill him or try. He may ride off to the North. (The North may try to secede, but that's a lot to do in one episode.) He may get the throne. If he or Dany get the throne it is going to be such a boring ending. I hope there is a twist at the end and one of the other options for the throne wins.

You know you're watching a show full of jerks when you're rooting for a guy who has sex with his sister and pushes kids out windows because he is the better person than those he is fighting.

Hopefully Arya kills Dany.

 

[sassafras]

Spoiler: Why you reading this thread if you haven't watched the episode?

I was kinda thinking similar. But we had glimpses of it all throughout the seasons. She was just acting brutally to the bad guys.
How we cheered her in Meereen because she did it to the Masters in freeing the slaves. It's ok if it's the bad guys. But anyone willing and capable of burning alive and/or crucifying anyone, enemy or not is evil or unfit and capable of destroying the innocent.
She became what she claimed to want to overthrow. She's a tyrant.

Whoops! Forgot to add spoiler..

Spoiler

Yeah, I saw Mad Queen Dany coming a mile away precisely for those reasons. If you want to justify your atrocities against your enemies, you have to make your enemies atrocious. And in this case, the audience found the masters deplorable and abstract, so we were able to cheer Dany on. But when she came to Westeros to contend with characters and a culture the audience had grown familiar with over the course of the story, it became harder and harder to accept Dany as a hero. OK, we know Lord Tarly was a dick; he wanted to kill his son, but Dickon was simply a son standing behind his father. The Lannister soldiers were nameless and standing behind an enemy, ok, it's war; people die... just like Tyrion, like Jon, like Varys, the audience still had their blinders on.

But even with all this, from a storytelling perspective, the crazy switch came too fast and too soon. And compounded with the other characters who arcs essentially turned out to be circles (ahem, Jaime -- what the fuck you mean you never cared about the innocents?!!!? The story we were told didn't support that in the least) the frame made this about-face seem erratic and more about shock value than a careful, narrative cultivation.

Thematically, we were told what story D&D were trying to tell. That life often doesn't follow a story structure or rhyme or reason. People die in unsatisfying ways all the time.

Exhibit A:

Note: The bells sounding at the end of this clip.

Still, you're telling that story with a story, so you have to follow structural rules to some extent. You have to prep the audience even if you mean to pull the rug out from underneath them.

The simple fact of the matter is that they've rushed this season. I don't have a problem with the final outcome of the story. It's just the journey there wasn't satisfying. We weren't given the groundwork, so many in the audience lost their footing.

 

[Daustus]

Spoiler: Tick Tock

The series has been rushed since they ran out of Martin's books. This season has been breakneck paced. I'm getting the impression that the Weiss and Benioff want to end the series before it goes stale. They've booked more work and probably looking forward to moving onto new projects.

 

[Daustus]

Spoiler: House of Cards

I'm stuck with the image of a house of cards. I get the sense to finish the project before it all falls down. Hope that makes sense.

 

[sassafras]

Spoiler: Tick Tock

The series has been rushed since they ran out of Martin's books. This season has been breakneck paced. I'm getting the impression that the Weiss and Benioff want to end the series before it goes stale. They've booked more work and probably looking forward to moving onto new projects.

From what I understand, HBO offered them a full season and money was no object; they were even prepared to extend their contract for a season nine. Given the rush, I would agree with your assessment that Weiss and Benioff just wanted to move the fuck on with their lives.

I hope they realize, however, that at least in the real world, choices have consequences. They're moving onto Star Wars next... and Star Wars fans are definitely a lot more rabid than them GOT nerds.

 

[Daustus]

Let's be real honest. Star Wars should be considered a religion with how devote it's following is. Also it's a very divided fan base. What is Star Wars to one group is never enough for the whole community.

Weiss and Benioff will likely want to do a darker, adult Star Wars. I'm intrigued to say the least. As a practicing Star Wars-ian, I want a Star Wars that continues on the current universe that somehow emotionally connects it all.

 

[Asa]

Spoiler: ...

@Daustus I agree that the ending season is rushed and wrapping up too quickly. We listened to talk about White Walkers and "Winter Is Coming" for eight years, from the opening scenes in the premiere, and the Night King was defeated in one, sloppy episode. Agree - since the story skipped ahead of George RR Martin's work the writing has gone down hill.

I do not think Dany's transformation was rushed or unexpected. She said she did not want to burn King's Landing, but the tone of that episode eluded to taking that route. She stated several times during the series that she would burn the cities of her enemies and return enemy cities to dirt. She roasted enemies with her dragons. It was predicted that her child with Drogo would burn cities. Her family has a history of severe mental illness. Her father was the Mad King, Viserys was a narcissistic sadist and power hungry, and the family has a history of serious incest (which they did to keep their bloodlines pure) so offspring were more likely to have hereditary illnesses. Dany was emerging from the war with the wights/white walkers, which would give anyone PTSD, and recently suffered from heartbreak, betrayal, and loss. She has also been viciously power hungry and obsessed with her end goal (the iron throne) for two seasons. Her personality has been sliding in the direction of Viserys' for a while. Finally, it is GOT. Things don't usually go well or happily for characters. Good characters often die, and in this case a good character turned evil instead of dying. It was the Red Wedding, but with fire.
Her roasting of King's Landing suits the ending. Either she is going to be thrown off the throne and we'll get a happy ending, or she will sit on the throne and we'll get a tragic ending.
It will be fun to see how GRR Martin eventually decides how the real ending will go.

What is Grey Worm going to do? I find his situation interesting. He lost the love of his life. His queen is a tyrant. He is loyal. He is disciplined. He is a good person. I have expected him to die via suicide/daring battle feat during last night's episode.

 

[sassafras]

Let's be real honest. Star Wars should be considered a religion with how devote it's following is. Also it's a very divided fan base. What is Star Wars to one group is never enough for the whole community.

Weiss and Benioff will likely want to do a darker, adult Star Wars. I'm intrigued to say the least. As a practicing Star Wars-ian, I want a Star Wars that continues on the current universe that somehow emotionally connects it all.

I hope for the sake of your religion, Weiss and Benioff learn from their mistakes with the GOT franchise. Darker, adultier, subversive is fine and dandy, but when you commit to something, you gotta make sure you don't shit the bed in the final act by rushing through storylines.

I think GOT was just too big of a project for them to sew together. Eight seasons. Over 75 hours. With a trilogy, you're looking at telling a more compact story. It may be more to their strengths.

 

[Daustus]

Spoiler: Grey Worm

Guy is broken. He lost his future, his love, and likely his hope/joy/light. I was thinking about him too. I see him going full Darth Vader and lean into the dark side and be the royal enforcer. There was a shot where we got to see his profile of his face last night and my head flash forwarded 20 years to a future where Dany won. I saw him as a grizzled royal guard captain, broken beyond repair. Little left of the good man. Kinda clashes with his former hopes to leave the queen and travel the world with his love. I'm worried for truly grim ending.

 

[Daustus]

I hope for the sake of your religion, Weiss and Benioff learn from their mistakes with the GOT franchise. Darker, adultier, subversive is fine and dandy, but when you commit to something, you gotta make sure you don't shit the bed in the final act by rushing through storylines.

I think GOT was just too big of a project for them to sew together. Eight seasons. Over 75 hours. With a trilogy, you're looking at telling a more compact story. It may be more to their strengths.

You're right, I to hope they learn. Landing this series was always going to be the hard part when the series was outpacing the content. I have a small list of series that I tell people they must see. I'm hoping that this series doesnt end up my new battlestar galatica. I always say the series is great and you should watch it. "First 3 seasons are great. the 4th is weird, forced and the ending wasnt what I wanted, but the storytelling from seasons 1-3 are great - you really should watch them!"

 

[acd]

Spoiler: Go watch the show and then visit this thread.

I agree with @Daustus and @acd. Dany is as bad as Cersei now. It was predictable. Also, there is nothing left for her to rule. Hardly any people (and the survivors hate her) and no buildings left in King's Landing. The North isn't crazy about her, either. She is a tyrant.
I hope Varys got the word out.

What is up with Tyrion? He keeps making HUGE mistakes by ruling with his emotions and forgetting others don't share his sense of right and wrong. He must be deep in the grip. (LOL! Had to add that little MBTI joke.)

I'm not sure what is going to happen to Jon. He's done with Danaenerys. Dany may kill him or try. He may ride off to the North. (The North may try to secede, but that's a lot to do in one episode.) He may get the throne. If he or Dany get the throne it is going to be such a boring ending. I hope there is a twist at the end and one of the other options for the throne wins.

You know you're watching a show full of jerks when you're rooting for a guy who has sex with his sister and pushes kids out windows because he is the better person than those he is fighting.

Hopefully Arya kills Dany.

Spoiler: Thoughts

I actually felt kinda bad for Cersei. She was so hopeless and child-like at the end saying, "I don't like this. I don't like this."But of course she was still willing to allow innocents to be slaughtered if it protected her. I am amazed at how they were able to turn sympathetic characters into monsters and monsters into characters we can sympathize with.

I am impressed with Dany's arc. We saw it coming all along but didn't want to see it because her cause was sympathetic and so she was a hero, ends justifying the means and all that. It gives you a lot to think about, especially in our world. How willing people are to make concessions for the immorality and unethical actions of those they sympathize with--so long as it's their side in power.

 

[Daustus]

Spoiler: Heroism

I'm drawn to the line from the line from the Dark Knight, You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. Dany got to see herself become the villain quickly. I'm worried that the premise of GOT is going to boil down to "Targaryen's are god like beings with severe good or evil within.

 

[Asa]

Spoiler: ....

I actually felt kinda bad for Cersei. She was so hopeless and child-like at the end saying, "I don't like this. I don't like this."But of course she was still willing to allow innocents to be slaughtered if it protected her. I am amazed at how they were able to turn sympathetic characters into monsters and monsters into characters we can sympathize with.

I am impressed with Dany's arc. We saw it coming all along but didn't want to see it because her cause was sympathetic and so she was a hero, ends justifying the means and all that. It gives you a lot to think about, especially in our world. How willing people are to make concessions for the immorality and unethical actions of those they sympathize with--so long as it's their side in power.

You bring up really good points.
It does raise a lot of questions about how people's morals and ethics, as well as expectations, bend depending on the side they are on.

I felt sympathetic toward the Lannisters, too. I was rooting for Jaime, perhaps on behalf of Tyrion and definitely because he is a better person than Euron. (Sad when a person who has done such despicable things is the better man.) I still wanted/expected Cersei to die at the end of the episode.
I felt bad for Cersei. It irked me that I was falling for that writing, but in real life I usually see the different facets and feel sympathetic, even when I disagree with a person's decisions.

We saw the story arc where Cersei went from bad to worse as her children died. We didn't need to see the same kind of story arc so thoroughly with Dany. As you said, it was there al lalong, but it wasn't beating us over the head like it was with Cersei, either. Dany considered her dragons to be her children. Since the dragons were born on Drogo's pyre, the prophecy is true: Dany and Drogo's child ("Drogon") burned cities.

Guy is broken. He lost his future, his love, and likely his hope/joy/light. I was thinking about him too. I see him going full Darth Vader and lean into the dark side and be the royal enforcer. There was a shot where we got to see his profile of his face last night and my head flash forwarded 20 years to a future where Dany won. I saw him as a grizzled royal guard captain, broken beyond repair. Little left of the good man. Kinda clashes with his former hopes to leave the queen and travel the world with his love. I'm worried for truly grim ending.

Poor Grey Worm.

I'm drawn to the line from the line from the Dark Knight, You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. Dany got to see herself become the villain quickly. I'm worried that the premise of GOT is going to boil down to "Targaryen's are god like beings with severe good or evil within.

Meanwhile Jon seems to be incapable of evil.

 

[Wyote]

Spoiler: All that mattered this season

 

[dragulagu]

This was a harsh episode, pfew.

Spoiler: Go watch the show and then visit this thread.

I agree with @Daustus and @acd. Dany is as bad as Cersei now. It was predictable. Also, there is nothing left for her to rule. Hardly any people (and the survivors hate her) and no buildings left in King's Landing. The North isn't crazy about her, either. She is a tyrant.
I hope Varys got the word out.

What is up with Tyrion? He keeps making HUGE mistakes by ruling with his emotions and forgetting others don't share his sense of right and wrong. He must be deep in the grip. (LOL! Had to add that little MBTI joke.)

I'm not sure what is going to happen to Jon. He's done with Danaenerys. Dany may kill him or try. He may ride off to the North. (The North may try to secede, but that's a lot to do in one episode.) He may get the throne. If he or Dany get the throne it is going to be such a boring ending. I hope there is a twist at the end and one of the other options for the throne wins.

You know you're watching a show full of jerks when you're rooting for a guy who has sex with his sister and pushes kids out windows because he is the better person than those he is fighting.

Hopefully Arya kills Dany.

Spoiler

Honestly, Dany is worse than Cersei (yeah she's terrible). She is purely fueled by her inner destructive fire. They are following the animalistic traits of their houses, Wolves, Lions, Dragons. And while the Dragon may reign in the end it'll be alone on top.

Totally agreed with Tyrion, HUGE mistakes by the little imp. But the biggest mistakes in my eyes were Grey Worm for charging and Jon for not calling a proper retreat. If they did, a lot more people would have survived. The bell was rung, so the enemy wasn't in a position for retaliation. But instead they went for full manslaughter along with Dany (seriously, she could just fly up to the capital).

I have no idea how this show will end now. There's a lot to fill in for 1 episode. Curious.
Still rooting for Sansa and the Starks

Spoiler: All that mattered this season

Spoiler: aww yeah

 

[Asa]

I have no idea how this show will end now. There's a lot to fill in for 1 episode. Curious.
Still rooting for Sansa and the Starks

Spoiler: Everyone!

I'm still rooting for Sansa and Arya, too.

I think Arya has a new name on her list.


@Wyote - Oh mannnn. The Mountain sucks.

I closed by eyes during the eyeballs part @dragulagu is posting about because hurt eyeballs freak me out.

Also, the recap after the episode when they said, "We just knew [the Hound] had to die by fire...."
Well, no shit. The whole city is on fire!


Who dies by fire?

 

[Wyote]

Spoiler: Everyone!

I'm still rooting for Sansa and Arya, too.

I think Arya has a new name on her list.


@Wyote - Oh mannnn. The Mountain sucks.

I closed by eyes during the eyeballs part @dragulagu is posting about because hurt eyeballs freak me out.

Also, the recap after the episode when they said, "We just knew [the Hound] had to die by fire...."
Well, no shit. The whole city is on fire!


Who dies by fire?

Spoiler

That's the kind of passion I have on the daily. Love that movie.