Gay Men Dislike Me (and I Am A Straight Woman)

Artemisia said:
Apparently misogyny in the gay community is a thing: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thin...nity-needs-to-deal-with-its-misogyny-problem/

Before someone feels insulted and starts claiming that straight men can also be misogynists, that is besides the point of the OP. The fact is that I have witnessed this sort of behavior several times (the malicious gossip) to pay attention to patterns. And social scientists in my field are especially good at discerning patterns.
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If you don't mind me asking, what is your field? I have wondered what your field is since you wrote about how you lied to your friends in hopes of eliciting a certain response from them and described it as a social experiment. It may just be a problem with communication through text, but again and again I see you display your concepts of research in a way that appears to be extremely unsophisticated. Your ideas about statistics and ethics seem to be the most abysmal I have encountered in a working academic. You use words like pattern and correlation without any apparent awareness of the necessity of validation. You seem lost and thrashing around hopelessly in scholarly ideas that are beyond you.
 
@Artemisia I will keep this post shorter. You seem very convinced the problems you mention are due to 'gay men' not liking you. Especially those you discern to be feminine. How about if you changed those terms to 'black men' or 'tall women' or 'short guys'. Sounds ridiculous no ? They truly are just labels. The only thing I would say, is that given the mistreatment of gay people over the years (still continuing) is it any wonder they may group together somewhat to support each other? I can certainly understand it. I can also understand how if you are not 'in the group' you might feel threatened by it.

That doesn't mean they are out to get you, or exclude you. To an extent, it sounds to me like you are maybe doing that yourself by judging them ? I don't say that to be unkind. I hope you sort things out at work and feel better. Try to talk to them and get to know them better. Behind every door, there is a story. You may make some friends and find some things you never hoped or expected to. Good luck.
 
Free said:
So now it's all gay men?
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Do feminine gay men represent ALL gay men? Nope.

Here's how it looks from my end, and perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but I feel that you've once again pigeonholed yourself into a narrow point of view.

I'm not saying that this social phenomena doesn't exist, I'm saying that it exists in every social corner. You're trying to place the blame on a particular group of people (feminine gay men) when all kinds of people are guilty of this behavior. One article reaffirming a preconceived notion and a handful of celebrity quotes does not hold any weight.

Do you have any gay friends outside of work? Do you know anything about the culture from firsthand experience and not what you read in articles?

The reason I ask this is because your views would change drastically if you had experiences other than the negative ones you've been exposed to.

I was once immersed into superficial fashion and beauty culture. I was a stylist that did hair and makeup before going back to school to become a psych nurse and researcher. I have known many people who are gay, gender dysphoric, bisexual, transsexual, pansexual, alternative lifestyle gurus, you name it. My oldest friend is a feminine gay man, one of my best girlfriends transitioned from male to female.

My point in this is that I think you're forming an opinion about this group of people without having had any real experience with them, without trying to know them on a personal level, and without understanding a basic part of them in that they identify as feminine.

Some people gossip and get off on making others feel down. To put a label on feminine gay men as misogynists is a completely ignorant move. I could label you as a misandrist against feminine men in the same light. Do you see the folly in that?

I really would like to help you, and my advice to you is this, instead of sticking to your already formed opinion, why not provide yourself with an oportunity to learn and grow from it? Talk to a few of these gossiping coworkers, get to know them, learn a few things about them that you didn't hear from other gossips. Office politics are not fun, but there are much better ways to approach situations such as this. One of the best ways to combat something is to face it head on. Confront them in a heartfelt and tactful manner, explain your feelings, see what happens.[/QUOTE]
 
Stereotypes exist for a reason. They obviously don't represent everyone in a given group, but if I say that black people are great runners, Jews are very intelligent, and Scandinavians are reserved no one would take offence because these are positive stereotypes. It doesn't mean that ALL black people are superior runners, ALL Jews are intelligent, etc. It means that they are more likely to fit the stereotype than not.

Same with feminine gay men and gossipy behavior.
 
Artemisia said:
Stereotypes exist for a reason. They obviously don't represent everyone in a given group, but if I say that black people are great runners, Jews are very intelligent, and Scandinavians are reserved no one would take offence because these are positive stereotypes. It doesn't mean that ALL black people are superior runners, ALL Jews are intelligent, etc. It means that they are more likely to fit the stereotype than not.

Same with feminine gay men and gossipy behavior.
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Actually, although offense might be the wrong word, I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with those statements on the basis that they are ridiculous generalisations. And no, an ingrained stereotype has no meaningful probability value on the basis that it is preexisting.
 
Artemisia said:
Do feminine gay men represent ALL gay men? Nope.

Here's how it looks from my end, and perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but I feel that you've once again pigeonholed yourself into a narrow point of view.

I'm not saying that this social phenomena doesn't exist, I'm saying that it exists in every social corner. You're trying to place the blame on a particular group of people (feminine gay men) when all kinds of people are guilty of this behavior. One article reaffirming a preconceived notion and a handful of celebrity quotes does not hold any weight.

Do you have any gay friends outside of work? Do you know anything about the culture from firsthand experience and not what you read in articles?

The reason I ask this is because your views would change drastically if you had experiences other than the negative ones you've been exposed to.

I was once immersed into superficial fashion and beauty culture. I was a stylist that did hair and makeup before going back to school to become a psych nurse and researcher. I have known many people who are gay, gender dysphoric, bisexual, transsexual, pansexual, alternative lifestyle gurus, you name it. My oldest friend is a feminine gay man, one of my best girlfriends transitioned from male to female.

My point in this is that I think you're forming an opinion about this group of people without having had any real experience with them, without trying to know them on a personal level, and without understanding a basic part of them in that they identify as feminine.

Some people gossip and get off on making others feel down. To put a label on feminine gay men as misogynists is a completely ignorant move. I could label you as a misandrist against feminine men in the same light. Do you see the folly in that?

I really would like to help you, and my advice to you is this, instead of sticking to your already formed opinion, why not provide yourself with an oportunity to learn and grow from it? Talk to a few of these gossiping coworkers, get to know them, learn a few things about them that you didn't hear from other gossips. Office politics are not fun, but there are much better ways to approach situations such as this. One of the best ways to combat something is to face it head on. Confront them in a heartfelt and tactful manner, explain your feelings, see what happens.
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It's painfully obvious to me that you're only seeking validation for your concreted opinions and are not actually seeking other perspectives or advice. Communication simply ceases to exist in this manner. I wish you well.
 
I can't really get my head around this thread. It seems so incredibly unlikely that an academic department could include in its staff 9 gay men who are all out and proud, of which 8 present as feminine in their behaviours. Then there are all of these other academics in the department who are apparently corroborating the perception of spiteful behaviour. Just how large is this department exactly?
 
invisible said:
I can't really get my head around this thread. It seems so incredibly unlikely that an academic department could include in its staff 9 gay men who are all out and proud, of which 8 present as feminine in their behaviours. Then there are all of these other academics in the department who are apparently corroborating the perception of spiteful behaviour. Just how large is this department exactly?
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Like stu said, gay men are a good judge of character.
 
invisible said:
I can't really get my head around this thread. It seems so incredibly unlikely that an academic department could include in its staff 9 gay men who are all out and proud, of which 8 present as feminine in their behaviours. Then there are all of these other academics in the department who are apparently corroborating the perception of spiteful behaviour. Just how large is this department exactly?
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It is an American overseas institution....very well-known. Faculty and staff number over 100 and the students number around 30 per academic year. Perhaps this social sciences institution just attracts a lot of gay men (though very few lesbians).
 
Artemisia said:
Stereotypes exist for a reason. They obviously don't represent everyone in a given group, but if I say that black people are great runners, Jews are very intelligent, and Scandinavians are reserved no one would take offence because these are positive stereotypes. It doesn't mean that ALL black people are superior runners, ALL Jews are intelligent, etc. It means that they are more likely to fit the stereotype than not.

Same with feminine gay men and gossipy behavior.
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You are my favorite poster.
 
@Artemisia I'm really not sure where you are going with this thread now, except to very stubbornly defend your view, no matter how many times others have gently tried to cast some light on it's flaws. Stereotypes do exist for a reason. The reason is some people are too uneducated or intellectually lazy to accept that they are a nonsense. Having dealt with people who are fixated that their view is 'right' I will offer you this alternative. How about 'maybe' ? Maybe you are right and maybe you are wrong.

I think if you take some time and look back at some of the constructive suggestions people here have made to try to help you (even though they probably felt hurt and offended by you) you might benefit. I hope so. Especially if you switch your focus from 'winning' an argument here or at work, to instead making your situation better. Frankly people are what they 'do' not what they say. Saying you support LGBT issues and are open minded, then acting in a way that suggest the total opposite does not support your view.

Finally, ALL Scandinavians are reserved, have you ever met any ? I have, and they did NOT match that description. I'm not sure how far "The Vikings" would agree either. But "maybe" I'm wrong. Try it out. Even if you are very clever, clever people make mistakes all the time. Maybe. See, it was easy...
 
Artemisia said:
Stereotypes exist for a reason. They obviously don't represent everyone in a given group, but if I say that black people are great runners, Jews are very intelligent, and Scandinavians are reserved no one would take offence because these are positive stereotypes. It doesn't mean that ALL black people are superior runners, ALL Jews are intelligent, etc. It means that they are more likely to fit the stereotype than not.

Same with feminine gay men and gossipy behavior.
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Wow.

This thread has completely stunned me, and I've read more than my share of Flavus Aquila's bigotry.

I wonder if those gay men are actually gay now and you're not just stereotyping them because apparently they exhibit gossipy behaviour, and who wouldn't want to gossip about the stuck up racist homophobe in the office?
 
ejiznl.jpg


Institution: American ("Overseas")
"Very well known"
Staff: "Over 100"
Students: "30 per academic year"

Research Specialties:
Confidence Arts
Nonsensicalism
Theoretical Authenticity
Stereotype Validity
Charlatan Studies
Self-Entitlement Law
Empathy Resistance Fields
 
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Guys, guys! What if.... what if this entire thread, along with the others, is just a fabrication? What if we're part of one of her sick social experiments?


...no, I'm not wearing a tinfoil hat! Just trying to find some kind of explanation.
:tonguewink:
 
Artemisia said:
if I say that black people are great runners, Jews are very intelligent, and Scandinavians are reserved no one would take offence because these are positive stereotypes.
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This, more than anything else you have said, speaks to absolute cluelessness. Your seeming lack of insight is just stunning.

INFJs are Ni-doms. If in fact you are INFJ, it would seem that something is amiss with your Ni.

I think there is something deeper that informs and drives all this, and that very same thing means you will never hear any of us, give things a moment’s consideration, or see anyone in your office as a person instead of the member of some demographic group. Good luck with that.


I wish you well,
Ian
 
Free said:
Guys, guys! What if.... what if this entire thread, along with the others, is just a fabrication? What if we're part of one of her sick social experiments?
...no, I'm not wearing a tinfoil hat! Just trying to find some kind of explanation.
:tonguewink:
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It wouldn't surprise me if she can't tell the difference between when she's telling the truth and when she's lying. She is so incredibly comfortable with lying to a large number of her friends that she has no hesitation in describing herself as an authentic person.

I can't believe a thing she says. What do you think her postgraduate research was about? She has repeatedly failed to understand why it's inappropriate to generalise from what we might call her "data". She uses an opinion rant from a trashy tabloid as a reference to support her assertions. Who could possibly believe she's an academic? Her educational achievements aren't even undergrad level. It's way more likely that she's just trying to discover whether she can convince us that she is an academic (as a fascinating social experiment).
 
This is just a reminder that regardless of how firmly and strongly we disagree with someone's beliefs, we can still try to engage with them civilly. Otherwise, we venture into the realm of not being much better than the person we're maligning.

I do wish you well Artemisia, I just hope someday you'll be able to open your mind and truly listen when someone is trying to help and have a dialogue with you. You currently don't seem receptive to this and ignore or completely misunderstand anything that doesn't fit into your belief systems. This makes it difficult, unfortunately, to try to have discussions with you, because you ask for opinions, but then shoot down opinions when they are not in line with what you want to hear. I hope, if you are serious about everything you've said, that eventually you will learn and realize how damaging to your fellow human beings your beliefs can be, how beliefs akin to yours can make people suffer. I don't think this is your intent, hopefully, but the outcome remains the same.

I know this is most certainly not the response you wanted to hear to this thread, but all we've been trying to do is, well... talk to you. It's gotten a bit out of hand, in my opinion, but people are trying, because they care.

Best regards.
 
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